Buying a boat (lake Windermere)

[TheNovice]

Hey everyone, new to the forum here and looking for a bit of help. I'm looking to learn how to sail had little time on a sailing boat and just know It's something I must take up. I'm looking for something that would berth 4 people comfortably and 6 If I needed to. I want to know about annual costs, such as winter storage, anti fouling and if It's needed every year or every two and a swinging mooring.
When learning in my own boat do I hire a skipper to teach me and what's the hourly cost? I'm looking for about a 24/30ftr from around 15-£25,000 and what would the insurance be and the cost to get a survey done on one that size?

I've always loved watching boats sail and have drove a few mobos and but It's sailing that captured my heart, now I have the money I want to take it serious and just dive right in. I really don't want to start small with say Mirrors and so on, this boat would be like a getaway home for me and my other half and It's either a boat or caravan (psst, I dont want a caravan ). The big plan is to learn how to sail and do coastal cruising after a few years, If anyone can help me It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Jay

 

[lpdsn]

There's a lot of people who will say they just bought a boat and taught themselves. Usually when you scratch the surface they will have sailed with their parents or done a fair bit of dinghy sailing, so they weren't the novice they like to make out when telling their story in the bar.

You shouldn't run too big a risk of encountering monster waves on Windermere, but there are still plenty of opportunities to run up a large repair bill bouncing around the local marina - the bigger the boat the harder the crunch.

Boat maintenance is a whole field in itself, so unless you've some background there it can be awkard and expensive. Many professionals in the marine industry seem to consider boat owners as having more money than sense and will be happy to do their best to equalise the balance.

The advice I'd give is to dip your toe in the water a few times. Try crewing for others. Yacht clubs are one way. This forum another. Racers need more crew and I believe there is some racing on Windermere, so try there. Be honest and tell them you're a complete novice but keen.

You could try an RYA Comp Crew course - perhaps treat it as a summer holiday to make the cost more palatable - it's cheap compared to boat ownership.

In answer to one of your questions: you can get own boat tuition from an RYA Instructor - has to be under the auspices of a school otherwise no certificate. You can find a list of schools via www.rya.org.uk and ring a few up for a price.

If you reach Day Skipper you can (just about) charter with the ticket. Holiday companies do flottila holidays in the Med when you have a little experience & certainly with a DS.

Other thing is to be conservative about how many people you can get on a boat. Yes an experienced race crew of eight can easily co-exist and race efficiently on a 30 footer, but novice cruising crew seem to take up much more space. I learnt my lesson years ago having a gridlocked cockpit on a 34 footer with six.

 

[Lakesailor]

Contact this lot. http://www.lakedistrictboatclub.co.uk/ they have premises and race cruisers. Royal Windermere are more dinghy and keelboat racers.
There is also the Windermere Cruising Association but they don't have premises so you really only meet them if you are already on a boat.

 

[akyaka]

Worth having a word with Plas Menai who run courses from dinghies through to offshore cruisers most tied into the RYA certificate system. One to one instruction can be very expensive.

http://www.plasmenai.co.uk/

 

[Lakesailor]

There are plenty of RYA schools operating on Windermere. Why go to Wales?

 

[akyaka]

There are plenty of RYA schools operating on Windermere. Why go to Wales?

Excellent. Plas Menai is the only one reasonably local ( 1-2 hours or so away depending where The novice lives ) that I knew did cruiser yacht courses as against dinghy courses. Conscious of your deep knowledge of the Lakes I presumed that there were not any as you had not mentioned it previously.

 

[Lakesailor]

I am not a fan of sailing schools. Most of my near misses have been with school boats with an instructor on board. Favourite seems to be manoeuvring under power into my path when I am sailing.

Some of them are here. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...:en-GB:official&client=firefox-beta&gws_rd=cr

 

[akyaka]

With carrying ons like that i can fully appreciate your comment and surprised its so mild. They really should be reported to the RYA as they are clearly not practicing what they teach.

 

[TheNovice]

I'm from Leeds, like I said though It's either a boat which I would love, I have been on the water a few times and I know It's what I want or a caravan and that's just boring. I know I would love sailing. I'm very keen on learning the full ropes. I have the money and time, all I'm asking is how I would go about buying one, I'm not interested in racing just want to learn, I'm 99% sure I want this. I'm booking a hotel this week to go to the lake district and get out on the lake with a skipper and look around a few boats and see what's best for me and my needs. What I'm asking is the annual costs on It, I know I will love and enjoy every minute on the lake that's not the problem. I'm new to sailing but have spent time on the water. I have spent a very short time on a sail boat but loved it. It's a holiday home and a hobby If I can get away with spending £3000 a year after buying it then I'm all in. I will be taking lessons until I fully feel safe and that could take weeks or months.

 

[Tranona]

Costs break down into 3 main categories. The first is related to keeping the boat, which includes mooring, lifting out and storage and insurance. You can get a good idea of the first two by getting rates from the boatyard and owners of moorings where you want to sail (there is a huge variation from very little to massive amounts). Insurance on the type/value of boat you are looking at is likely to be less than £300 a year. The second cost is annual maintenance, which can be as little as a couple of hundred £s for antifoul and paint if you DIY. Third, which is the big imponderable is the cost of repairs/replacements/upgrading. This can be small if you buy a boat which is in very good condition, but can run away with money on things like new sails at about £2k, a replacement engine at £6k, £2k for rerigging or upgrades of electronic equipment, new cooker, fridge etc. Much of this expenditure is discretionary in the short term, but over time you need to budget for the things that wear out - after all you are probably considering a boat which is over 30 years old, so inevitable you will need some replacements. Look for a boat which is in very good condition, not a "cheap" project as they almost always end up more expensive than paying more for a boat in better condition.

 

[Lakesailor]

Ah. On Windermere there is no negotiating. It starts with swinging moorings that the SLDC (council) own at £120 per metre per year and works upwards to the boatyards and marinas (only a few).
http://www.southlakeland.gov.uk/leisure-and-culture/lake-windermere/windermere-fees-and-charges.aspx

For 30ft boats, unless you have a yard trolley and can tow out on the slip at Ferry Nab, you are looking at lift outs at about £350 out and in. More depending on boat size and yard. (realistically only 3 available).

 

[Tranona]

Just to add a little bit more to my earlier post. Others are suggesting you get more experience before taking the plunge. This is sound advice. If you don't know what you are looking for and don't have the experience to understand the differences in boats you will find it very bewildering. Suggest you buy the little book from the RYA on buying and selling secondhand boats so you know the process. If you are buying on the lakes you will find a very limited choice of the sorts of boats you are looking at and you may find you have to buy elsewhere and truck it in - more cost, probably adding £1000 or more.

You will also find that not living close to the boat and not in an area of big boat usage you will encounter additional costs and hassle of getting things done. Compare with where I live, in Poole, there are over 8000 boats in the harbour, more than 1000 of them belonging to members of the club I belong to. Within 10 miles radius there are 4 top class sailmakers, 2 riggers, 6 chandlers, agents for most popular makes of engines etc etc, so owning a running a boat is relatively easy as there is the infrastructure and people to support you.

A common way of getting in without going through the ladder of small boats is to do an RYA course to Day Skipper level. Not only will this give you a good grounding in the principles and practice but you will soon find out whether you like it or not. Then do a flotilla in the Med with the family to get experience (and a great holiday). You will then have a pretty good idea about what you want in a boat so your first purchase will not be a stab in the dark.

 

[TheNovice]

The costs for a RYA course seem to be a lot of money, then I would have to also pay for over night stays at hotels/B&Bs and cost getting there and back. A 5 week course can cost onwards of £2000 with the above fees. I've been looking at a Ronautica RO 265 that's for sale and brokered by Maiden Marine, or the beneteau 285. I have been reading many forums and other posts on the net how to go about buying a boat, such as legal terms and so on, getting a survey done and to be careful buying from a private seller and so on. I'm pretty happy about the costs I thought It would be a little more but I get the basic idea. I will before I buy a boat take a day course or two and then more lessons when I acquire a boat. I know there is a tonne of helpful people and some have offered to teach me themselves also have offered to help me when the time comes to buying one which is highly appreciated but they live no way near the lake district. I get to some I'm giving the impression of rushing in to it and I suppose I am when it comes to buying one, I've waited years and always have been told I would never be able to do anything like this over an illness. I no longer have said illness and really feel I need to do this for myself. I just need to make sure I don't get screwed over by getting in to it this fast.

 

[William_H]

i would strongly suggest if possible that you do a sailing course on Windermere. This will give you some insight into where to sail and where not to and of the facilities available as well as how to sail and manage a boat similar to what you want. Anyway buying a boat is an adventure sadly often it does not turn out well for the novice. Mostly because they don't actually need or use their boat. Those who find sailing suits them have no problem with maintenance etc and find lots of time to enjoy it. So that is the most difficult decision for you to amke and it sounds like you have decided so good luck olewill

 

[hartcjhart]

Ah. On Windermere there is no negotiating. It starts with swinging moorings that the SLDC (council) own at £120 per metre per year and works upwards to the boatyards and marinas (only a few).
http://www.southlakeland.gov.uk/leisure-and-culture/lake-windermere/windermere-fees-and-charges.aspx

For 30ft boats, unless you have a yard trolley and can tow out on the slip at Ferry Nab, you are looking at lift outs at about £350 out and in. More depending on boat size and yard. (realistically only 3 available).

jeez do they charge you more for shoe size,no wonder the area is dying

 

[V1701]

This looks good value, seller in Bradford too (I have no connection to seller, etc.):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dockrell-...ng_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item338455ebe4

Good luck...

 

[Lakesailor]

I looked at that boat for some Southern-based forumites (I am not a surveyor, it was just a look at the general condition). Cheap enough, not bad, but there are better at not much more. The OP is looking for more accommodation I would have thought.

EDIT: Looking at my PM to the interested parties the price has dropped like a stone. My previous comment on value seems to be redundant. It's now looking extremely good value. As long as the underwater bits are OK.

This was in April.

Just popped down and had a look at the boat. The broker said if you are interested, to try a very low offer. Interesting that his details show it at £13,500 although it's £10,000 now..

The owner put it on the brokerage in the marina 9 months ago and they gave him 3 months free mooring, but he has been charged monthly since then. So it's costing him to be there.

 

[aquaplane]

Just to learn to sail you could do worse than a dinghy course at Pugneys, it's local and they let you hire the boats for about £10 for a bit of practice once you have some idea.

Handling a cruiser is another set of skills so a course on Windermere could be usefull too, my crew did one with Elaine at Total.

Lakie has pointed out the swinging mooring fees, 10M max by the way. Any bigger and you have to go in a marina but for your plans you should be OK.

It's about £120 to keep a dingy, if you can find somewhere, or you end up bringing an inflatable each time.

Parking adds up too. My mooring is away from the busy bit in the middle of the lake so I can usually avoid paying for parking.

I would look at boats on the lake, Maiden, Total or Sheperds are the main brokers. Sometimes boats are cheaper on the sea but by the time you have moved it there won't be much in it.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Perhaps worth bearing in mind that a boat equipped for a lake might not be equipped to the same level as a boat equipped for the sea (not better or worse - it's just that you don't need things like chart-plotters and GPS on a lake). I'd have thought that at the sort of size you're looking at, you'd soon find a lake - even a large lake like Windermere - restricting. I have a similar sized sailing boat (31') and if I go out for a few hours, I soon travel further than the length of Windermere, and then I start considering where to go! Also, Windermere is notoriously tricky for sailing, with rapid wind-shifts and gusts. If I were considering sailing on Windermere, I'd probably look for a day boat or dinghy, with a caravan or B&B for sleeping.

If you're in Leeds, why not look at the east coast? Not much in Yorkshire (Whitby, or various places on the Humber), but plenty of possibilities north of the Tees. When I was a boy, living in Dewsbury, we kept a boat first of all at South Ferriby (on the Humber) and then at Dunbar (East Lothian). I wouldn't recommend the Humber - the tidal streams are strong, and the channels are narrow, but north of the Tees should be OK.

 

[Lakesailor]

Also, Windermere is notoriously tricky for sailing, with rapid wind-shifts and gusts. If I were considering sailing on Windermere, I'd probably look for a day boat or dinghy, with a caravan or B&B for sleeping.

I'd agree. A day boat is much more fun. However you won't find many very secondhand caravans on sites for the OP's budget. The lake isn't about passage-making though. Some days with a steady Westerly you can fly down the lake and back on a reach in a few hours. Other times it can take you half a day to get a mile. I have sailed at less than a knot quite often (some may call it "drift").

If your aim is to spend a day sailing, and maybe a night. You can enjoy the lake for what it is. No planning for tides. Turn up and sail.