Buying a boat in Italy

The classic Italian procedure (and this is after 11 years in Italy):

-Call the number on the website
-Person on the phone tells you to send an email
-Send email
-Wait days / more
-Follow up call, response "please send email"
-Reply saying yes I did already some time ago
-Person on phone checks, finds email, realises it was sent a while ago
-things actually start to move
 
pipemma said:
Mike, if you're around still, how amenable did you find the broker to the lower figure?
Click to expand...
I found very amenable if it’s given in an envelope .In fact if you are new to doing business in IT they volunteer two prices .
” A white price “ that’s on a computer invoice , printed off and “ another price “ This “other price “ is folding , no paper record .

You need to develop a bit of trust , via rapport first .
 
Portofino said:
I found very amenable if it’s given in an envelope .In fact if you are new to doing business in IT they volunteer two prices .
” A white price “ that’s on a computer invoice , printed off and “ another price “ This “other price “ is folding , no paper record .

You need to develop a bit of trust , via rapport first .
Click to expand...

This does not exist todays, since that was more to do with the Monti law and the wave affect which came after it.
In Italy they had a new law in Monti 2013 which subscribed your income to the size of the yacht.

For example 10-11.99 meter you need to declare a minimum of 30k income a year.
12 to 13.99 you need 45k
14 to 17.99 60 k etc

So when the Monti law came up in 2013 many (but especially from South to Rome) ended with bigger yachts for the TaxMen then they would have liked.
Hence why many leasing boats where left unpaid as well, as the fire was not worth the candle....

Today many will not want the envelope, and if the value is over 10% of value you would want to look with a big lens in the deal....
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
This does not exist todays, since that was more to do with the Monti law and the wave affect which came after it.
In Italy they had a new law in Monti 2013 which subscribed your income to the size of the yacht.

For example 10-11.99 meter you need to declare a minimum of 30k income a year.
12 to 13.99 you need 45k
14 to 17.99 60 k etc

So when the Monti law came up in 2013 many (but especially from South to Rome) ended with bigger yachts for the TaxMen then they would have liked.
Hence why many leasing boats where left unpaid as well, as the fire was not worth the candle....

Today many will not want the envelope, and if the value is over 10% of value you would want to look with a big lens in the deal....
Click to expand...

Taking about reducing the brokers 5 % fee , if I understood post # 63 correctly ?
 
Portofino said:
I found very amenable if it’s given in an envelope .In fact if you are new to doing business in IT they volunteer two prices .
” A white price “ that’s on a computer invoice , printed off and “ another price “ This “other price “ is folding , no paper record .

You need to develop a bit of trust , via rapport first .
Click to expand...
Careful careful (forgive the outrageous tread drift)
I lived and worked in India for some years and this was a way of living.
A new tower block was being built and the owner sold the apartments to two people at the same time. The potential owners paid in the usual way say half “black” money and the rest documented money with receipts.
Come the day of occupancy and both parties turn up for the same flat.
The owner/ builder says oh dear I’ll give one of the parties their money back (more skulduggery) but he only legally needs to pays back the documented amount.
Owner/builder walks away with 1.5 times more.
 
mparrish said:
Still here ! - it was an easy discussion, but I suspect very dependant on the broker you are dealing with. M
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Well, it looks like we're going down the Italian route! Offer accepted, and the broker is taking his 5% but on a lower figure than the agreed price.
The broker is the one that I think JanLeonard in post #44 used, and there is no outstanding finance on the boat, so hopefully the process will be a little smoother. The main issue at this stage is that we're struggling to find a surveyor with availability before May. The broker uses an agent to deregister from the Italian flag, and I'm 99.9% certain we're going to go with the Polish flag.
 
Ok, then you shouldn't have any problem.
Not until the Polish will make up some expensive bureaucracy requirements also for boats under 15m, that is...! 😜
 
MapisM said:
Ok, then you shouldn't have any problem.
Not until the Polish will make up some expensive bureaucracy requirements also for boats under 15m, that is...! 😜
Click to expand...

Sure - maybe things will change in 3-5 years' time and we need to reflag again, but that's then and this is now
 
@mparrish @Portofino I know it's quite a few years ago now but I'd be grateful for your input on the sequencing of handover in Italy (assuming the survey on 18th is positive). We have a ferry crossing to Greece that we booked back in the winter to get the discount, and which we are going to have to reschedule. I'm trying to work out the logistics/when we can move the boat out of Italy so we can start looking at dates. We have an awful lot of juggling to do with flights, ferries, location of car, critters in kennel/cattery, fixed points in calendars etc.

From previous posts, I *think* the sequence is something like this:
  1. The broker or owner obtains a “Nulla Osta” document certifying that the boat is free of all encumbrances and no money is owed on her (especially to the Italian state).
  2. We pay the balance of the purchase price to the broker, along with their commission. Possibly also the fee for the agent who will do the “irradiation of the flag”?
  3. The broker and the owner go to the notary to complete the sale and sign the bill of sale.
  4. The registration port authority issues a temporary certificate of the change of ownership.
  5. The bill of sale, the temporary certificate and the registration blue book together are sufficient for us to be able to leave Italian waters while still under the Italian flag.
  6. The agent starts the deregistration process.
  7. We return the blue book to the registration port authority when requested to do so (maybe two months later?)
So if I have understood this correctly, we can move the boat as soon as we have the temporary certificate of the change of ownership?

Given the provisional completion date on the sale of our old boat and the time for banks to move money about, I'm guessing we won't be able to complete on the boat in Italy until around the end of the first week of May - I gather we actually don't need to be there for that, only the owner and broker at the notary? And, if I understand your posts right, the Nulla Osta is part of this?

How quickly can the temporary certificate of change of ownership be obtained?

If, for argument's sake, the sale completed on 5 May, is it too optimistic to hope to move the boat to her new home from 13 May?
 
Last edited:
Hi .
You move the money a few days beforehand.Depending on type of transfer ( ck with your banker ) the speed can be even that day for a small fee , or maybe 3 days .Figure that out first and work according .
Obviously trust comes into play , but there’s a record of the receiving bank remember .Mine had arrived on the Thursday for a Sat hand over .To give a working day for cock ups .

Like you stuff booked in advance flights out X2 + skipper sourced locally by the broker and my work schedule rearranged so it had to go ahead .

If they ask for a more than one bank or the owners “ sisters “ bank to deposit some or all thats not unusual in Italy .Just roll with it innocently .
By this stage ^ you will be one first names terms with the broker , maybe familiar with his house and family as was the case with me .If not it will be a straight owners account of some sort .

The broker does indeed get a “ temporary cover note “ from the port authority.Timed for the completion date .
So you can sail away .I understand they ( well the did then 2014 ) can turn up in person say on the Friday in my case to Roma , ( boats in Naples ) to get this piece of paper .Which is what happened.

But again I had agreed 2 weeks previously, over a meal after doing the deal on the viewing all this stuff .Also agreed the brokers terms and payment method .It’s wasn’t the std % advertised.I will leave it up to your imagination how I paid him on the hand over day .

We arrived late Friday pm , broker sent a black BMW 7 series with two suited blokes to pick,us up from the airport take us to the boat .Introduced the del skipper ( a youngish lad familiar with the boat ) .Took us to a supermarket to provision up .
A cousin of the broker turned up at 10 pm in darkness with a fuel bowser and filled it up @ €1 /L cash .I was given two choices “ a white price by card of €1.70 “ “ or another price of €1 “

All 4 off us had a “ good night “ drinks wise on board , broker left around midnight.

6 am the three of us let slip from under Versuvius and set off N .
By lunch time we pulled in at Roma to top up .Last weekend in Nov .The gardia Finanza were waiting outside the marina as we left .We were probably the only boat movement that day .
It was on the Roma decals still IT flagged .All the paper work stacked up .The temp transfer doc , the original blue book , BoS , passports etc etc .To give you an idea it took them 40 mins .Lap top and phones were used to check everything.
They did ask where we were headed as foreign passport to them , so we told them it was being exported to France .
I guess they are checking there was no dues owed ?? Dunno really what they were checking up on .

On arrival in Cannes I sent the original blue book back to the broker ( kept photocopy etc ) .
A few weeks later the final cancellation doc came through to my home address .I keep copies of the original blue book , the temp doc and the final doc on board at all times .We have been “ done “ by various officialdom many times in France and recently in IT and I just toss them this little file .Placates them .The fee for this was inc in the brokers fee btw .

Shortly after I went on line got it on the SSR and the next visit hair dryer off the Roma reg decals .Started to fly a red .

So for you .
1- trans the funds .
2- Ensure the broker get the temp cert saying it’s been sold .
2- fuel + provision = ask the broker for help inc taxi you to supermarket.
3 - Sort out his “ % “ and method of payment.= This might influence how receptive he is working hard .
4 insurance = in Italy I understand they have to min have 3 P mine had a few months left so technically I did not have to do anything.It’s on the boat not the person .How ever i did prearrange normal full comp with my U.K. underwriters.

As a side note in the initial sale negotiations re how do we get it up to Cannes .All this was outlined before the viewing .In the sense if I like it and it’s accurately described ( i requested more pics ) then unless I can get up the Cannes it’s a none starter .So the broker laid on the del skipper on the basis I tip him and fund his trip back .
The lad worked Ad hoc for various brokers moving boats around IT .Based in Rome .
I thought it was a good idea to have an Italian fixer on board .eg we arrived at 7 pm at Punta Ala , and he phoned the fuel guy who turned out at 10 pm to fill us up .Being Nov etc on partial hrs .Obviously he was the one talking to the GF in that 40 min paper work check .
Water off a ducks back .
 
Hello @pipemma,

I'm bying a sailboat with broker Abayachting (they are very kind and professional).
The date of signing is in less than 1 week and now it's the moment to deposit all of payment...
The broker need to have payment before date of sign.
For this amount it's not possible to use instant transfert SEPA payment, the processing time for normal SEPA is between 24-48h.
So :
1 - I transfert money 48h before date of sign
2- I go to Italie the d-day and i hope owner and borker are still alive ;)

that's realy a lot of money and i'm not very relaxed with this procedure.

An other question concern the Null Osta, i could read that is obsolete document and is it not necessary, could you confirm?

Thank you,
Thomas.
 
ThomasFlash said:
Hello @pipemma,

I'm bying a sailboat with broker Abayachting (they are very kind and professional).
The date of signing is in less than 1 week and now it's the moment to deposit all of payment...
The broker need to have payment before date of sign.
For this amount it's not possible to use instant transfert SEPA payment, the processing time for normal SEPA is between 24-48h.
So :
1 - I transfert money 48h before date of sign
2- I go to Italie the d-day and i hope owner and borker are still alive ;)

that's realy a lot of money and i'm not very relaxed with this procedure.

An other question concern the Null Osta, i could read that is obsolete document and is it not necessary, could you confirm?

Thank you,
Thomas.
Click to expand...
I think you're further ahead in the process than we are. The broker got the nulla osta last week, but apparently we need an Italian tax code to execute the sale, so that is currently being applied for.
 
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