jfm
Well-Known Member
Nope!
Yep! The use of paper and lack of online-ness is getting embarrassing.
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Buying a boat in Italy
- Thread starter mparrish
- Start date
burgundyben
Well-Known Member
And that, no matter how hard you try, they cannot tell you up front if you can have a name or not, or if you need to change the details of engines but don't have the original invoice for them. Its taking months!
rubberduck
Well-Known Member
As someone considering buying another absolute, it sounds easier to keep existing one & live on the Thames (which is SWMBO's prefered option) if I'm honest.
JanLeonard
New Member
Thanks to Mike for the answer regards the 'Blue Book'. I'm not sure I agree with Portofino comment that buying in Italy is not a minefield - my frustration was that there was no single point of reference I could go to to get details of the process, unlike the U.K. where there are many sites (including the excellent RYA site) on buying boats in the U.K..
I thought it might be useful to others to summarise our own experience as follows:
1. Flew out to see the boat with the yacht broker and owner. Unfortunately we didn't have time for a sea trial but did have a motor around the marina.
2. Boat is being sold VAT paid and has outstanding lease payments which will be settled on completion. Yacht broker is charging us 5% commission - after asking various contacts this is normal for Italy and little room for negotiation (we managed to wangle a small amount off)
2. Agreed a verbal offer with yacht brokers. A Memorandum of Agreement (standard format approved by Mediterranean Yacht Brokers Association) and inventory was raised and signed by both parties.
3. A 10% deposit was paid to the yacht broker's client account.
4. We arranged for a local registered surveyor to do the survey. We did look at flying out a U.K. surveyor but the location (2 hour drive from Bari) made the costs prohibitive. The surveyor was recommended by the broker (I know - not what you are supposed to do) but it was our only option given the location. However, the broker is a well established reputable broker so we were confident with the recommendation. The survey was very comprehensive with plenty of photos and we were very satisfied with it.
5. There was then a lull of a few weeks while the seller was negotiating the settlement amount with the lease company. This was frustrating as we thought all this had been sorted but we could do nothing but sit and wait.No signed Deed of Sale at this stage either, only the MOA and signed inventory. At this stage I had paid for a U.K. broker to advise on various aspects of the process and this is normal. We did have an Italian plus English copy of the Deed of Sale which was due to be signed by the Seller.
6. We get a call on a Monday that the lease settlement amount has been agreed and completion is due the following Tuesday so brokers need our balance by Friday into their client account. So not much time to move funds in place and buy Euros.
7. Tuesday - broker, seller and notary go to the lease company office (we didn't attend). Lease company sells boat to the seller and seller then instantly sells the boat to us. Money is released from the yacht broker's client once notarised Deeds of Sale from Lease company to seller is complete. Seller also signs 3 copies of the standard RYA Bill of Sale which we were advised to do help us when we sell the boat on in future.
8. Over the next couple of weeks we get sent copies of the registered Deeds of Sale from the lease company to the seller and the one from him to us .
9 We paid an agency to handle the registration deletion from the Italian registry (550 EUR + VAT) and register the sale deed tax (864 EUR + VAT)
10. We then did the SSR registration online with its new name. Laminated certificate arrived a few days later.
11. 3 weeks after completion we drove down to see the boat, removed the old name, Italian registration number and flag, put on the GB flag and SSR number. The yacht broker met us there and handed over:
- the Nulla Osta
- the original notarised Deed of Sale
- our 3 copies of the signed RYA Bill of Sale
- invoice (showing IVA) from the leasing company to the seller
- the Volvo engine certificate
- the EU declaration of conformity
- the builder's certificate
12. We then sailed the boat to another marina in Italy - Port Police were happy with our SSR cert + insurance
13. Sailed the boat to Corfu - Greek Port Police were again happy with SSR cert + insurance. We then spent 2 months sailing around Greece and were never asked for any of the Italian documents or proof of VAT.
So a long exercise which took 4 months from viewing to completion but worth it in the end. And the Italians were the friendliest and most helpful people!
I hope that helps. I would definitely buy a boat in Italy again but only through a large reputable broker.
Jan
I thought it might be useful to others to summarise our own experience as follows:
1. Flew out to see the boat with the yacht broker and owner. Unfortunately we didn't have time for a sea trial but did have a motor around the marina.
2. Boat is being sold VAT paid and has outstanding lease payments which will be settled on completion. Yacht broker is charging us 5% commission - after asking various contacts this is normal for Italy and little room for negotiation (we managed to wangle a small amount off)
2. Agreed a verbal offer with yacht brokers. A Memorandum of Agreement (standard format approved by Mediterranean Yacht Brokers Association) and inventory was raised and signed by both parties.
3. A 10% deposit was paid to the yacht broker's client account.
4. We arranged for a local registered surveyor to do the survey. We did look at flying out a U.K. surveyor but the location (2 hour drive from Bari) made the costs prohibitive. The surveyor was recommended by the broker (I know - not what you are supposed to do) but it was our only option given the location. However, the broker is a well established reputable broker so we were confident with the recommendation. The survey was very comprehensive with plenty of photos and we were very satisfied with it.
5. There was then a lull of a few weeks while the seller was negotiating the settlement amount with the lease company. This was frustrating as we thought all this had been sorted but we could do nothing but sit and wait.No signed Deed of Sale at this stage either, only the MOA and signed inventory. At this stage I had paid for a U.K. broker to advise on various aspects of the process and this is normal. We did have an Italian plus English copy of the Deed of Sale which was due to be signed by the Seller.
6. We get a call on a Monday that the lease settlement amount has been agreed and completion is due the following Tuesday so brokers need our balance by Friday into their client account. So not much time to move funds in place and buy Euros.
7. Tuesday - broker, seller and notary go to the lease company office (we didn't attend). Lease company sells boat to the seller and seller then instantly sells the boat to us. Money is released from the yacht broker's client once notarised Deeds of Sale from Lease company to seller is complete. Seller also signs 3 copies of the standard RYA Bill of Sale which we were advised to do help us when we sell the boat on in future.
8. Over the next couple of weeks we get sent copies of the registered Deeds of Sale from the lease company to the seller and the one from him to us .
9 We paid an agency to handle the registration deletion from the Italian registry (550 EUR + VAT) and register the sale deed tax (864 EUR + VAT)
10. We then did the SSR registration online with its new name. Laminated certificate arrived a few days later.
11. 3 weeks after completion we drove down to see the boat, removed the old name, Italian registration number and flag, put on the GB flag and SSR number. The yacht broker met us there and handed over:
- the Nulla Osta
- the original notarised Deed of Sale
- our 3 copies of the signed RYA Bill of Sale
- invoice (showing IVA) from the leasing company to the seller
- the Volvo engine certificate
- the EU declaration of conformity
- the builder's certificate
12. We then sailed the boat to another marina in Italy - Port Police were happy with our SSR cert + insurance
13. Sailed the boat to Corfu - Greek Port Police were again happy with SSR cert + insurance. We then spent 2 months sailing around Greece and were never asked for any of the Italian documents or proof of VAT.
So a long exercise which took 4 months from viewing to completion but worth it in the end. And the Italians were the friendliest and most helpful people!
I hope that helps. I would definitely buy a boat in Italy again but only through a large reputable broker.
Jan
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the update. What boat did you buy in the end?
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
Great result, many thanks for the update. Sounds like you found a very good broker, and got in at the right ex rate, before it went south.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is confusing and only part of the story. The qualifying date depends on the state and the date it joined the EU. For the major countries 1992 is the date, but under the accession rules boats that were in that state 8 years or more earlier (that is pre 1986) are "deemed VAT paid". New boats after that date need evidence of VAT payment.
So, to determine if evidence of payment is required you need to know the state it was sold in and the date. If it is old enough to qualify for "deemed VAT paid" then you have to show that it was in the state in the accession date for the state in question. So, in Croatia which joined in 2013, boats in that state on 1 July that year but were more than 8 years old were "deemed VAT paid" provided they had evidence that they were actually there. In the event, like some other states, Croatian customs had a procedure for certifying this.
barryboat70
New Member
Hi Mike
Like you we are looking to buying a yacht in Italy at Porto Levante this is being sold through EYB who state that the seller and buyer have to pay 5% commission plus VAT is this correct?
May I ask what was the cost of a british surveyor or would it be cheaper for an Italian surveyer?
Who do I get to de-reg the yacht from Italian flag ?
many thanks for any info and anyone who can help
Like you we are looking to buying a yacht in Italy at Porto Levante this is being sold through EYB who state that the seller and buyer have to pay 5% commission plus VAT is this correct?
May I ask what was the cost of a british surveyor or would it be cheaper for an Italian surveyer?
Who do I get to de-reg the yacht from Italian flag ?
many thanks for any info and anyone who can help
BartW
Well-Known Member
buyer and seller each pay's 5% comission to the broker is common practice in It,
you can ofcause negociate this in the deal,
I would offer a deal to the broker more comission on a lower selling price....
(Italians are alway's in for a deal ;-) )
most important about Surveyor choice is that you can trust him, and has the knowledge,
then you can easyly recover his (higher) cost
I had a good one back in 2011, but I'm afraid he is too old now
I would make the de-reg part of the sales agreement; obligation of the It broker,
but remember this can take weeks, if not months, keep a big shunk of the payment until the de-reg is finalised
mparrish
Well-Known Member
Barry
5% each seems pretty standard - I did "negotiate" a substantiallly lower figure however. I don't recall the figure for the surveyor and I'm away skiing so don't have easy access to the records. About £1000 plus expenses rings a bell, but I can look it up next week. I was happier to pay for and English speaker who came recommended by other forum members than go with an unknown local.
Definitely get the broker to do the deregistration as part of the deal (we did and didn't pay anything further - I have heard of mystery taxes creaping in !), But as BartW says it will take some time to fully complete. The broker involved in my case paid for a local marine agent to do all of the paperwork and deregistration. They\vendor paid.
M
5% each seems pretty standard - I did "negotiate" a substantiallly lower figure however. I don't recall the figure for the surveyor and I'm away skiing so don't have easy access to the records. About £1000 plus expenses rings a bell, but I can look it up next week. I was happier to pay for and English speaker who came recommended by other forum members than go with an unknown local.
Definitely get the broker to do the deregistration as part of the deal (we did and didn't pay anything further - I have heard of mystery taxes creaping in !), But as BartW says it will take some time to fully complete. The broker involved in my case paid for a local marine agent to do all of the paperwork and deregistration. They\vendor paid.
M
Danvilletim
Member
In the us it's common to have a buyer broker and a seller broker. The buyers broker would take care of most of this. The big brokerage firms all have documentation teams on staff. Is the two broker situation rare in The med?
WorstCase
Well-Known Member
5% for seller and buyer is the rule although I find it bit heavy. Keep in mind that Italian brokers bear NO RESPONSIBILITY WHAT SO EVER so they are simply intermediaries who don't guarantee nothing. Even specs of the boat it will be the buyer's responsibility to check. This might be obvious for most here, but maybe some new aspiring-boat-owner might be led to believe the broker gives some sort of guarantee compared to buying directly from owners.
This being said, there is an hefty tax to be paid on Italian registered boats that you can only avoid if the boat is de-registered. to do this there is a period on 20 days the Italian authorities take to check there are no pending claims on the boat (they check if the owner owes anything to anybody who might claim the boat as a seizable asset, and especially if there is any unpaid tax on the boat itself or on any crew that might have been employed on the boat. During this period of time they will collect the original papers of the boat and it will not be possible to use it outside Italian waters, where you still will need insurance, Safety Certificate (RINA) and a certified copy of the licence.
The normal way would be to stamp a sale agreement in any municipality and it will attest the identity of the partners and the effective date (not the content...). With the sale agreement you can submit to Capitaneria to change the names on the licence and pay the due taxes at the tax office. There are some stamps to be paid at municipality (16 something Eur for each copy you want attested), it will take 20 days to update the licence but the boat is effectively yours immediately.
For foreign buyers who intend to register the boat abroad then the procedure is to ask for a "Nulla Osta" which is a docuemnt from the Italian regsitrey that attests that at the moment of issue there are no pending claims on the boat and that she can effectively be transferred to another registry. This is the document you will need before paying money for the boat. The implications for the seller to ask this document are null and in case he doesn't end up selling the boat remains his. The de-registration from italian reg will only be effective once papers showing new registration elsewhere are sent to the Italian registry.
All the papers can be done directly at the Capitaneria (Regitration Office) and since they have a 20 days limit to complete the process this is the time it will take, whether you are an agent or not. So... are agents worth it? Yes if you are in no rush and if your hours is worth more than the fees for the agent.
My suggestion in Italy is to look for Belgian registered boats (which are becoming extremely common due to the heavy bureaucracy imposed on boats by the Italian Gov.) as the process will be much faster and cheaper especially for older boats, and buy from owners directly. Italian owners are generally annoyed by surveys as they see them as a mean to just haggle on the price, so it might take a while before you find somebody that shares your cultural approach to selling and buying.
This being said, there is an hefty tax to be paid on Italian registered boats that you can only avoid if the boat is de-registered. to do this there is a period on 20 days the Italian authorities take to check there are no pending claims on the boat (they check if the owner owes anything to anybody who might claim the boat as a seizable asset, and especially if there is any unpaid tax on the boat itself or on any crew that might have been employed on the boat. During this period of time they will collect the original papers of the boat and it will not be possible to use it outside Italian waters, where you still will need insurance, Safety Certificate (RINA) and a certified copy of the licence.
The normal way would be to stamp a sale agreement in any municipality and it will attest the identity of the partners and the effective date (not the content...). With the sale agreement you can submit to Capitaneria to change the names on the licence and pay the due taxes at the tax office. There are some stamps to be paid at municipality (16 something Eur for each copy you want attested), it will take 20 days to update the licence but the boat is effectively yours immediately.
For foreign buyers who intend to register the boat abroad then the procedure is to ask for a "Nulla Osta" which is a docuemnt from the Italian regsitrey that attests that at the moment of issue there are no pending claims on the boat and that she can effectively be transferred to another registry. This is the document you will need before paying money for the boat. The implications for the seller to ask this document are null and in case he doesn't end up selling the boat remains his. The de-registration from italian reg will only be effective once papers showing new registration elsewhere are sent to the Italian registry.
All the papers can be done directly at the Capitaneria (Regitration Office) and since they have a 20 days limit to complete the process this is the time it will take, whether you are an agent or not. So... are agents worth it? Yes if you are in no rush and if your hours is worth more than the fees for the agent.
My suggestion in Italy is to look for Belgian registered boats (which are becoming extremely common due to the heavy bureaucracy imposed on boats by the Italian Gov.) as the process will be much faster and cheaper especially for older boats, and buy from owners directly. Italian owners are generally annoyed by surveys as they see them as a mean to just haggle on the price, so it might take a while before you find somebody that shares your cultural approach to selling and buying.
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
Funny how this sort of things stick to memory PDQ, and are often mentioned years after they are cancelled.
That tax was dismissed two years ago, and in any case it had nothing to see with the flag.
It was a personal tax, only due from IT citizens who owned pleasure boats (>14m), regardless of their flag.
Hence totally irrelevant for anyone interested in coming to IT from elsewhere for boat shopping - in fact, most of the IT used boats in the last few years were sold to non-IT boaters.
rubberduck
Well-Known Member
I tried to buy from a broker there, made an offer between highest refused offer & full asking, got told it wasn't an auction ?? 
Give me BCU any day !
Give me BCU any day !
WorstCase
Well-Known Member
I am referring to registration tax connected with transfer of ownership IF the boat stays in the Italian registry:
http://www.assonauticagenova.it/passaggio-di-proprieta-delle-unita-da-diporto/
this is a fixed amount based on the length of the boat, so its impact might be irrelevant on more ex expensive boats
The ownership tax as you said has been abolished although its effect are still lingering on.
pipemma
Well-Known Member
JanLeonard said:
I'm bumping this old thread because ABA Yachting have a boat for sale that we're interested in. I was wondering if anyone had any recent experience with them? Specifically, how responsive are they to emails? I've sent a message both through their website and to their info email, but maybe I'm just impatient because it's Monday and they're probably still working their way through weekend messages.... Or are they a bit "southern European" in their timescales?
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
I have personally dealt with ABA in the past, and they are efficient usually.
If they delay to respond it could mean that the boat you are requesting information for is close to a deal, so they do not want to disrupt it.
Also remember if it is Italian to Italian for them makes it easier and faster.
If they delay to respond it could mean that the boat you are requesting information for is close to a deal, so they do not want to disrupt it.
Also remember if it is Italian to Italian for them makes it easier and faster.
billskip
Well-Known Member
Doesn't prevent a simple courteous reply tho.
pipemma
Well-Known Member
Thank you, both
Well, I wondered, but they just renewed the ad yesterday...
As billskip says, even a holding mail would be appreciated. I might try calling them if I don't hear back tomorrow
PowerYachtBlog said:
Well, I wondered, but they just renewed the ad yesterday...
As billskip says, even a holding mail would be appreciated. I might try calling them if I don't hear back tomorrow
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
Best to call. Italian brokers tend to take e-mails with pinch nowadays. And they are not the only ones...
