lambohill
Well-Known Member
Thanks for this. It is very useful, (and of course entertaining), many I expect are looking this direction, and your experiences are appreciated :encouragement:
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Buying a boat in Italy
- Thread starter mparrish
- Start date
oldgit
Well-Known Member
waiting for the next episode with interest.
mparrish
Well-Known Member
A bit busy with work and my sons birthday. Will get back to the writeup early next week.
mparrish
Well-Known Member
Next instalment !
The broker turned out to be very good (if somewhat slow !). They provided copies of all service documentation back to when the boat was first launched in June 2010, but that left a bit of a gap back to the hull ID date of 2008. This mystery was resolved when I got sight of the original purchase invoice and bank documents relating to the purchase (in a leasing scheme) along with the back few pages of the Italian Registration document which listed the exact dates of registration and the owner details. So all the paperwork appearer to stack up. The vendor was keen to buy the boat out of the leasing scheme prior to selling it to me. Due to the way I was purchasing the boat (and financing it) this suited me. The only stipulation by the vendor (through the broker) was that they wanted a second deposit paying once the vessel was out of the leasing scheme. Initially I was suspicious of this, but the reasons became clearer as we proceeded, so we accepted this proposal. So we signed a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) - from the ISYBA which was on a similar format to that of the British ABYA form of contract.
Once this was signed by the vendor, the broker and myself I had to part with the deposit payment. It all gets very really (and somewhat scary !) once you start sending money to a broker in a foreign country - particularly if you have read some of the horror stories on the internet !!. However - I did some background checks on the brokerage company, the directors of the company, the broker I was dealing with and the owner of the boat - it's amazing what info you can find on the internet with a bit of digging. So we sent a 10% deposit to the broker - in Euros - at a pretty good rate somewhere around 1.38. We chose to use UKForex based on a recommendation from a friend. They turned out to be very easy to deal with both on the phone and through their internet portal. This slowed transactions down a little as I had to send money from my GBP UK bank account to UKForex who then did the EUR bit out to Italy. Although this was slower (and increased my risk exposure somewhat), the exchange rates offered were a significant amount better than those offered by my bank.
So - we were committed. The contract (MOA) was pretty prescriptive on time-scales to undertake a survey and formally accept the boat. However the whole concept of the buyer having a survey seemed a bit alien to the broker and the vendor, but I insisted that this all went in the contract. Also - the Italian contract seemed to give very little room for manoeuvre if the survey highlighted problems, but I had a few amendments written into the MOA to permit withdrawal from the purchase if the survey and sea-trial showed up any 'significant' issues. I was keen for a professional survey to be done as I had spent a fair amount of time looking over the boat on my first inspection, but it was out of the water so no sea-trial had been done and I wanted a second opinion on my opinions. On previous purchases I had used Simon May of BoatCare Yacht Surveys (very good) and he had initially agreed that he would travel to Italy with me to undertake the survey. But - when I went to confirm the survey date with him he was unable to go due to health issues. So with a deadline in place I was given some recommendations on the forum to use Jim Pritchard. We contacted Jim and settled on a date towards the end of April that Jim could make, the yard could launch the boat and the vendor could attend as well.
During the intervening time the trail of paperwork continued to flow backwards and forwards while we waited for the allotted date for the survey to come round. On 21st April I travelled from Gatwick to Nice (on the same flight as Jim) from where we had a hire car to get to Varazze for the survey on the 22nd. All went smoothly except we didn't get to Verazze until about 1.30 in the morning after a very long and tiring day - oh well up early for the survey day !
We all arrived at the brokers office early, ready to get going, but as is often the case in Italy things seem to proceed at a snails pace ! The boat was still out of the water on a metal cradle, but with the yard transporter parked under it ready to pickup and move to the crane. Jim did the usual hull check and removed panels of antifoul to do moisture checks once we had convinced the vendor that all this was really necessary !! At least the weather was better - a glorious spring day.
Jim worked through his checklist of things ashore on the hull, drives and internals prior to the yard moving the boat to the crane for launch.
Late morning we got to launch the boat and take it for a sea trial - only problem was that we couldn't get one engine to start ! Once the yard had sorted an engineer to come along with some jump leads we were able to go. Or so we thought except that the boat had virtually no fuel in it so the owner had to put a splash in (and that's exactly what it was - a splash - enough for the sea trial and not a litre more !). Sea trial went well - testing engines, checking rpm, speed, temperatures, etc. Once the checks were done (with the vendor helming) I was let loose at the helm. All good - responsive, grippy hull, turned well and achieved good speed. So back to the marina for more systems checks while in the water - generator, air con, etc.
The only problem we found was a large quantity of fresh water in the bilges which was now mainly under the engines ! All we had to do was get the boat out of the water and search the boat for the source of all this fresh water while keeping an eye on the clock as we had to leave by 5.00 to drive to Nice in order to get on the evening flight back to Gatwick !!
More next time !
The broker turned out to be very good (if somewhat slow !). They provided copies of all service documentation back to when the boat was first launched in June 2010, but that left a bit of a gap back to the hull ID date of 2008. This mystery was resolved when I got sight of the original purchase invoice and bank documents relating to the purchase (in a leasing scheme) along with the back few pages of the Italian Registration document which listed the exact dates of registration and the owner details. So all the paperwork appearer to stack up. The vendor was keen to buy the boat out of the leasing scheme prior to selling it to me. Due to the way I was purchasing the boat (and financing it) this suited me. The only stipulation by the vendor (through the broker) was that they wanted a second deposit paying once the vessel was out of the leasing scheme. Initially I was suspicious of this, but the reasons became clearer as we proceeded, so we accepted this proposal. So we signed a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) - from the ISYBA which was on a similar format to that of the British ABYA form of contract.
Once this was signed by the vendor, the broker and myself I had to part with the deposit payment. It all gets very really (and somewhat scary !) once you start sending money to a broker in a foreign country - particularly if you have read some of the horror stories on the internet !!. However - I did some background checks on the brokerage company, the directors of the company, the broker I was dealing with and the owner of the boat - it's amazing what info you can find on the internet with a bit of digging. So we sent a 10% deposit to the broker - in Euros - at a pretty good rate somewhere around 1.38. We chose to use UKForex based on a recommendation from a friend. They turned out to be very easy to deal with both on the phone and through their internet portal. This slowed transactions down a little as I had to send money from my GBP UK bank account to UKForex who then did the EUR bit out to Italy. Although this was slower (and increased my risk exposure somewhat), the exchange rates offered were a significant amount better than those offered by my bank.
So - we were committed. The contract (MOA) was pretty prescriptive on time-scales to undertake a survey and formally accept the boat. However the whole concept of the buyer having a survey seemed a bit alien to the broker and the vendor, but I insisted that this all went in the contract. Also - the Italian contract seemed to give very little room for manoeuvre if the survey highlighted problems, but I had a few amendments written into the MOA to permit withdrawal from the purchase if the survey and sea-trial showed up any 'significant' issues. I was keen for a professional survey to be done as I had spent a fair amount of time looking over the boat on my first inspection, but it was out of the water so no sea-trial had been done and I wanted a second opinion on my opinions. On previous purchases I had used Simon May of BoatCare Yacht Surveys (very good) and he had initially agreed that he would travel to Italy with me to undertake the survey. But - when I went to confirm the survey date with him he was unable to go due to health issues. So with a deadline in place I was given some recommendations on the forum to use Jim Pritchard. We contacted Jim and settled on a date towards the end of April that Jim could make, the yard could launch the boat and the vendor could attend as well.
During the intervening time the trail of paperwork continued to flow backwards and forwards while we waited for the allotted date for the survey to come round. On 21st April I travelled from Gatwick to Nice (on the same flight as Jim) from where we had a hire car to get to Varazze for the survey on the 22nd. All went smoothly except we didn't get to Verazze until about 1.30 in the morning after a very long and tiring day - oh well up early for the survey day !
We all arrived at the brokers office early, ready to get going, but as is often the case in Italy things seem to proceed at a snails pace ! The boat was still out of the water on a metal cradle, but with the yard transporter parked under it ready to pickup and move to the crane. Jim did the usual hull check and removed panels of antifoul to do moisture checks once we had convinced the vendor that all this was really necessary !! At least the weather was better - a glorious spring day.
Jim worked through his checklist of things ashore on the hull, drives and internals prior to the yard moving the boat to the crane for launch.
Late morning we got to launch the boat and take it for a sea trial - only problem was that we couldn't get one engine to start ! Once the yard had sorted an engineer to come along with some jump leads we were able to go. Or so we thought except that the boat had virtually no fuel in it so the owner had to put a splash in (and that's exactly what it was - a splash - enough for the sea trial and not a litre more !). Sea trial went well - testing engines, checking rpm, speed, temperatures, etc. Once the checks were done (with the vendor helming) I was let loose at the helm. All good - responsive, grippy hull, turned well and achieved good speed. So back to the marina for more systems checks while in the water - generator, air con, etc.
The only problem we found was a large quantity of fresh water in the bilges which was now mainly under the engines ! All we had to do was get the boat out of the water and search the boat for the source of all this fresh water while keeping an eye on the clock as we had to leave by 5.00 to drive to Nice in order to get on the evening flight back to Gatwick !!
More next time !
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jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Great write-up Mike, enjoying these instalments, thanks.
JanLeonard
New Member
Hello Mike
Apologies for not getting back to you after my earlier post but events overtook us!
The good news is that we now have our boat and appear to have all the expected documentation. The process is very different from the U.K. and it was quite nerve wracking sending large amounts of money to a foreign yacht broker. We bought the boat through ABA Yachting who were excellent and helped us through the Italian legal maze.
One question I have though - the boat has been de-registered and we have a notarised deletion document. Did you also get the 'blue book' back after de-registration?
Many thanks for your updates - very useful!
Jan
Apologies for not getting back to you after my earlier post but events overtook us!
The good news is that we now have our boat and appear to have all the expected documentation. The process is very different from the U.K. and it was quite nerve wracking sending large amounts of money to a foreign yacht broker. We bought the boat through ABA Yachting who were excellent and helped us through the Italian legal maze.
One question I have though - the boat has been de-registered and we have a notarised deletion document. Did you also get the 'blue book' back after de-registration?
Many thanks for your updates - very useful!
Jan
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
No, the blue book gets returned/destroyed.
It's the same with the French register. I got a notarised copy of my French orange book
It's the same with the French register. I got a notarised copy of my French orange book
Portofino
Well-Known Member
As Jez says you send back the "Blue book "
They should -Broker -sellers ?? - issues you from the Reg port aurhority a temp cert - saying change of owner etc -so you are free to sail away
We were stopped by the Guardia Finanzia outside Rome after a re -fuel on the del trip ( Naples -Cannes ) . All paper work in order -phew !
When @ Home port hair dryer off the IT reg decals -go on line re reg SSR or what ever ?
It's not a mine field in fact Quite v simple -the "Blue book " is like a UK car V5 from Swansea -contains all details and assures tax is paid , otherwise the boat would not have a "blue book ". In the first place .
Keep copies of " blue book " and temp discharge cert (I have a copy of "blue book " on board incase "officialdom ask Q's
2 y in nobody's in SoF bothered ---- we fly a red and have SSR no on the back -
Official Dom just take one look and go pick onther
They should -Broker -sellers ?? - issues you from the Reg port aurhority a temp cert - saying change of owner etc -so you are free to sail away
We were stopped by the Guardia Finanzia outside Rome after a re -fuel on the del trip ( Naples -Cannes ) . All paper work in order -phew !
When @ Home port hair dryer off the IT reg decals -go on line re reg SSR or what ever ?
It's not a mine field in fact Quite v simple -the "Blue book " is like a UK car V5 from Swansea -contains all details and assures tax is paid , otherwise the boat would not have a "blue book ". In the first place .
Keep copies of " blue book " and temp discharge cert (I have a copy of "blue book " on board incase "officialdom ask Q's
2 y in nobody's in SoF bothered ---- we fly a red and have SSR no on the back -
Official Dom just take one look and go pick onther
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BartW
Well-Known Member
that is a interesting statement ! are you sure about that ?
I have bought the boat from a IT company,
as it was a transaction from a IT company to a Belgium company, there was no VAT to pay (both company's have VAT registration)
I was alway's in the impression that there was never VAT paid on the boat,
so that VAT is due when I sell her to a private person.
A long time (2 years) after the buying transaction I was told that the former owner accidently DID pay vat on this boat, due a mistake in the paperwork during a owners transaction, (before me) but they were unable to provide paperwork to proove this.
I do have a copy of the original Blue book,
are you sure there is a proove of VAT paid in that book ?
its all italian, can't read it myself
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PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
In private transaction its not the Blue Book which says Vat is paid, but the Nulla Osta, as it says the boat is owned nothing to the Italian state.
Or else the cancellation (deletion certificate) never will be issued.
If private register a Blue Book can be interpreted, as a company in order to sell to a private individual need to issue invoice. Here it is all a bit blurred tbh.
For a company which sells a boat, especially a Maritime Nautical company and declares Vat Paid I think I would go for official invoice.
But then again even this can be a bit played around with.
Company A issues invoice to Company B, B recovers Vat but still has original invoice, and sells you the boat Vat paid, which in reality is not.
So that is why the Nulla Osta is more fool proof then any Vat receipt you can ever have.
Or else the cancellation (deletion certificate) never will be issued.
If private register a Blue Book can be interpreted, as a company in order to sell to a private individual need to issue invoice. Here it is all a bit blurred tbh.
For a company which sells a boat, especially a Maritime Nautical company and declares Vat Paid I think I would go for official invoice.
But then again even this can be a bit played around with.
Company A issues invoice to Company B, B recovers Vat but still has original invoice, and sells you the boat Vat paid, which in reality is not.
So that is why the Nulla Osta is more fool proof then any Vat receipt you can ever have.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Well never 100 % sure .
But we survived a Guardia Finanzia -40 minute + mob phone calls to shore from them -check .
Broker lead me to believe that the "Blue book" by issue was proof VAT was paid ---or the version we had ? -perhaps there's various pages to deal with Co ownership and IT leasing scheemes ?
The Version we (still have a copy ) infers VAT paid .
You could if feeling Brave when in Italy next -show Guardia Finanzia your "blue book " copy and ask them what it means regarding VAT !
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Just seen this yup "nulla Osta " -that came after we sent the "blue book " back -original -once we arrived in France .
On the del trip we had the original "blue book " and a tempory cert issued by the port -Roma -
As an aside owners name in rhe book was a lady private person ,actually the " owners " sister .-I paid the sister the money
Not unusual in IT
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BartW
Well-Known Member
exactly,
that's what I thought was the case, but the former captain told me that something went wrong with recovering VAT / VAT declaration, long before me,
so that there was VAT paid on the boat, unfortunately I have any proove of that, neither any old invoice,
former owner(s) are not willing to dig in to this...
so in my books / paperwork there is never paid VAT on the boat.
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
For all the matter is not BA a 1993. So I think now EU states that proof of Vat needs to be for boats build in 2002 or younger. Before this it was 1992.
If you have Nulla Osta which you needed for cancellation, saying boat is owned nothing to Italian state I think it should be proof.
If you have Nulla Osta which you needed for cancellation, saying boat is owned nothing to Italian state I think it should be proof.
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
Have you got a link to that PYB? Would be very interesting to know. I'm surprised it's that late but good news if it is
BartW
Well-Known Member
BA is from 1991, and I found the nulla osta doc, thanks a lot PYB, so now i have a Vat paid boat ?
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
This was updated during Croatia EU entrance if not mistaken, and I saw it online but today I could not find it.
Still VAT is so blurred, and the system we have is far from fool proof.
The only was to remedy this I think would be to make it standard in the boat registration certificate all around EU states, make a standard proforma layout and a box which says tax paid or not paid.
Getting original invoices for boats in second or third ownership is a witch hunt at least.
mparrish
Well-Known Member
Jan
No we never had the blue book although I did take copies of it before completing the purchase. The nulla osta seemed to complete the sign off in Italy, although it took a further 5 weeks before we actually received the finalised deletion certificate (which we got translated and noterised).
Must complete the write up when i get chance - think theres probably another three installments in there yet ? Problem is this summer I've been too busy enjoying the boat, working or having the boat fixed (unrelated to the purchase - still really pleased with it - but thats another story).
Mike
No we never had the blue book although I did take copies of it before completing the purchase. The nulla osta seemed to complete the sign off in Italy, although it took a further 5 weeks before we actually received the finalised deletion certificate (which we got translated and noterised).
Must complete the write up when i get chance - think theres probably another three installments in there yet ? Problem is this summer I've been too busy enjoying the boat, working or having the boat fixed (unrelated to the purchase - still really pleased with it - but thats another story).
Mike
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
Took me three months for a cancellation from a Part 1 registry from UK this year postage time included. So that is not bad I guess.
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
The British registry is stuck in 1794 - nothing is fast or easy.
