Buying a boat in Italy

[mparrish]

Last month we sold our old boat (Bavaria 32 Sport) in the UK through a UK broker - all very simple ! Having been unable to find the right boat at the right price for us in the UK we started looking further afield (Italy, Croatia, France, Holland)

Having spent a few days in Italy last month I think I've found a boat that fits our requirements at a sensible price. We have verbally agreed a price with the broker and started the ball rolling with a UK surveyor going out in 10 days time to do the survey.

Now the tricky bit - Italian bureaucratic procedures - the broker has sent through the final draft Memorandum of Agreement (MOA). All very similar to UK brokers agreements - except;

I have requested sight of all documentation (servicing etc) on or before my visit with the surveyor.

I have requested the following as a condition of acceptance of the vessel;
1. Termination of the leasing agreement and return of the vessel to the Seller
2. Clearance from the Italian authorities to proceed with removal of the vessel from the Italian register
3. Provide the buyer with full documentation of at least 5 years history of proof of title (the broker tells me that there has been only one owner so far ie the current owner/leasing scheme)
4. Provide the buyer with full documentation of all vat payments at original purchase, during leasing contract and on settlement of the leasing contract, providing acceptable evidence of full vat payment

As well as the 10% deposit up front they want me to pay a further (stage 2) deposit on completion of the survey and our acceptance of the vessel (paid into the brokers client account) - what's the general view on this ?? The broker is saying they want this held by the broker, showing our commitment in order that the seller can get the vessel out of the leasing scheme.

On the agreed completion date they require the following sequence of events;
1.Sign the Bill of Sale
2.Pay the Balance of monies owing
3.Complete the removal of the vessel from the Italian register
4.Pay Brokers Commission
5.Release the deposits (1 & 2) to the seller
6.Deliver the vessel complete with all documentation

What's the general view on this ?? I've read through various peoples (portofino, Deleted User, adey) experiences of buying in Italy. The main problems I'm having are; the need for a stage 2 deposit and the order of events relating to deregistration - they seem to want full payment before this is fully completed. Does anyone have any definitive answers on the legal/bureaucratic procedures in Italy relating to this.

Thanks for any advice.

Mike

 

[Portofino]

Last month we sold our old boat (Bavaria 32 Sport) in the UK through a UK broker - all very simple ! Having been unable to find the right boat at the right price for us in the UK we started looking further afield (Italy, Croatia, France, Holland)

Having spent a few days in Italy last month I think I've found a boat that fits our requirements at a sensible price. We have verbally agreed a price with the broker and started the ball rolling with a UK surveyor going out in 10 days time to do the survey.

Now the tricky bit - Italian bureaucratic procedures - the broker has sent through the final draft Memorandum of Agreement (MOA). All very similar to UK brokers agreements - except;

I have requested sight of all documentation (servicing etc) on or before my visit with the surveyor.

I have requested the following as a condition of acceptance of the vessel;
1. Termination of the leasing agreement and return of the vessel to the Seller
2. Clearance from the Italian authorities to proceed with removal of the vessel from the Italian register
3. Provide the buyer with full documentation of at least 5 years history of proof of title (the broker tells me that there has been only one owner so far ie the current owner/leasing scheme)
4. Provide the buyer with full documentation of all vat payments at original purchase, during leasing contract and on settlement of the leasing contract, providing acceptable evidence of full vat payment

As well as the 10% deposit up front they want me to pay a further (stage 2) deposit on completion of the survey and our acceptance of the vessel (paid into the brokers client account) - what's the general view on this ?? The broker is saying they want this held by the broker, showing our commitment in order that the seller can get the vessel out of the leasing scheme.

On the agreed completion date they require the following sequence of events;
1.Sign the Bill of Sale
2.Pay the Balance of monies owing
3.Complete the removal of the vessel from the Italian register
4.Pay Brokers Commission
5.Release the deposits (1 & 2) to the seller
6.Deliver the vessel complete with all documentation

What's the general view on this ?? I've read through various peoples (portofino, Deleted User, adey) experiences of buying in Italy. The main problems I'm having are; the need for a stage 2 deposit and the order of events relating to deregistration - they seem to want full payment before this is fully completed. Does anyone have any definitive answers on the legal/bureaucratic procedures in Italy relating to this.

Thanks for any advice.

Mike

The "radiation of the flag " usually takes place after the sale -so I would have thought the brokers - 3 above should be "start removal ------
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?426878-Yacht-ownership-in-Italy.

There is a very neat + simple blue book A5 size ( bit like your V5 from Swansea re cars ) which has all the reg details and all the owners listed and more importantly the tax status listed ,private individuals and tax paid or in this case I suspect an Italien Co with leasing ? in which case there's the tax evidence .

This s carried on board at all times to hand over to " Gardia Finanza "

So that's 2-3-4 of your demands done in one ?
You should have seen this at the viewing as it shows the tax status and ownership details ?

Clearing up /settling up the lease -the sellers has to do this ,and you need I guess sight of a reciept from the leasing Co it's settled ? ( my purchase was from a pvt seller )
That's what the 2nd stage deposit may be all about -providing liquidity to do this ?

I just paid 10 % to the broker after view -/sea trial -the balance to owner -listed in the blue book the day
Before hand over .
At hand over day the brokers fee and other monies agreed which included the "radiation of the flag "
Then we set off from Naples to Cannes -with orginal blue book ,a BOS, and some sort of tempory cover note re ownership status .We were stopped for 45 mins by "Gardia Finanza" out side Roma -all the paperwork sacked up -sent on our way phew!!
Last week in Nov .Early Jan the broker requested I post the original blue book back -which I did .
About a month later Feb I received official de reg docs from Roma -which I keep a copy on board .

There's probably various ways arround it all -
The most important here --- you just need to we sure the leasing Co -is settled

Where do you I tend to keep her?

 

[mparrish]

Thanks Portofino, that's kind of how I saw it. Just a bit alien with the various Italian hoops to jump through.

Planning on sailing back to South of France then on the back of a truck to the UK. I know, I know .... all those who say keep it in Antibes !! but with kids, work, etc it's not the right time (yet).

 

[lem]

Hi Mike... Have you managed to complete yet? We are in a similar situation, currently buying a boat in Italy, your experience sounds very familiar..

Lyn

 

[WorstCase]

At hand over day the brokers fee and other monies agreed which included the "radiation of the flag "
Then we set off from Naples to Cannes -with orginal blue book ,a BOS, and some sort of tempory cover note re ownership status .We were stopped for 45 mins by "Gardia Finanza" out side Roma -all the paperwork sacked up -sent on our way phew!!
Last week in Nov .Early Jan the broker requested I post the original blue book back -which I did .
About a month later Feb I received official de reg docs from Roma -which I keep a copy on board .

Can the de-registration process take place while the boat is still in italian waters? Can it sail while the process take place? when you actually switch flag?

--

 

[jfm]

I didn't see this thread the first time. If you are insisting seller terminates the lease before you complete, then he has logical justification for a stsge 2 big deposit.

But why are you making that demand in the first place? Why not get a settlement figure from leasing co and then YOU pay off the lease on completion date? That removes the demand for stage 2 deposit, and reduces your own risk (that the lease has not actually been paid off but you've been defrauded into thinking it has). Then it's easy.

I bought a princess 64 in leasing a couple of years ago and this is exactly what I did. for sure I didn't want the seller dealing with paying off half a bar of lease debt and me being in dark about whether it had truly been done, but if I paid it myself then nothing can go wrong on that score

Deflagging seems an unnecessary hurdle too. I'd buy the thing and sail away to France with an IT flag, and then deregister it later. What's the big deal in demanding deflagging as a condition to the purchase?

 

[Portofino]

Can the de-registration process take place while the boat is still in italian waters? Can it sail while the process take place? when you actually switch flag?

--

I think the dereg process they call it "irradiation of the flag " can take place any where ,in Italy or where ever .
I sailed my boat to France with a IT flag and Roma reg decals -plus as I said some sort of official cover note thing along with the bill of sale .And the original blue book .
De Reging takes 2-3 months the broker will normally handle this , motivated by the seller who does not want to be liable for another round of wealth / boat tax .
I get the impression they can not just say " I've sold it " -there seems to be a official paper trail required ?fair enough
You need the original blue book on the boat while moving in Italien waters - Once home they request you post it back when authorises request as part of deflagging process the boat .
So it's it's a bit of trust really for both parties .Bit like a V5 with a UK car transaction .

JFM,s re leasing -agree .

 

[mparrish]

Thanks for the comments. Pretty much all water under the bridge now as we are nearing completion and the lease buy-out and deregistration are all complete (all with necessary documentation). Most of the paperwork trail has been handled by British legal people and an Italian agent (at the sellers cost). There were a few other complications to the total deal that influenced my desire for completion of deregistration and lease buy-out before I took ownership. Will provide a complete writeup when it's all completed and I've moved the boat to France (very soon). Thanks to all who have provided info and advice along the way (including Portofino, JTB, jfm and Whitelighter).
Will post pictures etc next week.

 

[JanLeonard]

Thanks for the comments. Pretty much all water under the bridge now as we are nearing completion and the lease buy-out and deregistration are all complete (all with necessary documentation). Most of the paperwork trail has been handled by British legal people and an Italian agent (at the sellers cost). There were a few other complications to the total deal that influenced my desire for completion of deregistration and lease buy-out before I took ownership. Will provide a complete writeup when it's all completed and I've moved the boat to France (very soon). Thanks to all who have provided info and advice along the way (including Portofino, JTB, jfm and Whitelighter).
Will post pictures etc next week.

Hello Mike
I know your post is quite old now but just wondered if we could touch base as we are in the process of buying a yacht in Italy in very similar circumstances to your own. It would be really useful to talk to someone who has been through the pain to see whether what we are being told is correct!

Hope you can help.

Regards
Jan

 

[mparrish]

No problem. PM me your mobile number and I will give you a call.
Mike

 

[scubaman]

Why not keep the discussion on the forum. There may be others on here in a similar situation or contemplating bying from IT.

 

[john]

Why not keep the discussion on the forum. There may be others on here in a similar situation or contemplating bying from IT.

I'm considering buying a boat in Italy, so yes please to sharing on here.

 

[mparrish]

Why not keep the discussion on the forum. There may be others on here in a similar situation or contemplating bying from IT.

Whichever is easier.

Mike

 

[scubaman]

Whichever is easier.

Mike

Yes, I see. Fortunately the very experienced and knowledgeable members of this forum who replied to your post didn't take that view but decided to spend a fair bit of their time in answering your questions.

 

[Portofino]

Yes, I see. Fortunately the very experienced and knowledgeable members of this forum who replied to your post didn't take that view but decided to spend a fair bit of their time in answering your questions.

+1
would be nice to know what boat .? ,where, ?del trip , paperwork trail -? etc for others
And a bonus if any pics

 

[mparrish]

+1
would be nice to know what boat .? ,where, ?del trip , paperwork trail -? etc for others
And a bonus if any pics

Apologies to those who seem to have got the hump with my "whichever is easier" comment to JanLeonard, but due to work commitment I've spent the last couple of days driving round the UK where I am able to chat on the phone, but unable to type replies. Having been through numerous discussions with Whitelighter on the subject of Italian purchases I was just offering direct help if they wanted it promptly.

More than happy to keep it on the forums and apologies to all for not providing the write-up on purchase and conclusion of the original deal. I actually started writing it up (twice) in the on-line forum space and managed to loose it all (twice !). So currently writing this in notepad and will paste it into here stage by stage.

 

[mparrish]

Part 1

The original purchase did conclude and I bought the boat back to the UK successfully last July, however it wasn't without its headaches. So back to the beginning.

My search for a new boat started early last March when we had an offer on our 2006 Bavaria 32 motorboat which we accepted and concluded the sale at the end of March. So the search for a replacement was on. We wanted a twin cabin boat around 35 - 40 ft with separate twin berths in the aft cabin for our ever growing teenagers. Other requirements were for a decent sized sociable cockpit, reasonable bathing platform sufficient for a decent tender - oh and not too expensive !

Having searched the UK market we were unable to find anything that met all our requirements - we looked at Sealine SC35's, Fairline Targa 38's and similar, but couldn't find any that met all our requirements. Having looked the previous October (2014) at a Bavaria 37 Highline Sport we came close to doing a deal with Clipper Marine for a part exchange, but failed to get to a financial conclusion, so the 37 was also a possible candidate, however, we couldn't find any at all in the UK. So we decided to broaden the search to Europe.

This resulted in a broad internet search all over the European brokers for something that fitted our requirements. We reviewed a bunch of Bavaria 37's, Farline Targa 38's, Absolute 39's, 40's and 41's and some Princess v40's. The outcome was a shortlist of boats spread around the northern half of Italy (plus one in Croatia). These were a mix of Bavaria 37's and Absolute 40 and 41, all with brokers. Having contacted a large number of brokers and had a small number reply I arranged viewing of 5 boats in Italy. An Absolute 41 in Varazze (NW Italy), a Bavaria 37 Highline Sport (also in Varazze), a possible Absolute 40HT on the Italian East coast, another Absolute 41 near Santa Margerita Liguri and a Bavaria 37 Sport near Lignano (NE Italy).

So at the end of March 2015 I booked a flight to Genoa, a hire car at the airport and a hotel in Varazze for a couple of nights, with a further hotel in Treviso and a return flight back out of Treviso to the UK. And so started my quick tour of Italy !

Day 1 - flew from Stanstead to Genoa, got hire car and travelled to Varazze and had a look round the marina, brokerages and dinner out in Varazze, ready for viewings on day 2.

Day 2 - had two viewings with a broker in Varazze - Bavaria 37 Highline Sport and an Absolute 41.

Boat 1 - Broker turned out to be an english speaking german living in Italy and working for an Italian dealer/broker. He turned out to be a good guy who also ran another business doing yacht maintenance and gaurdianage as a separate business. Anyway the viewings - first up the Bavaria 37 - viewing all done in cold Italian winter rains, so the med didn't present itself in the best light.
The boat also looked somewhat uncared for as it was out of the water and had been since the preceeding October. The boat was up on a cradle wedged against a workshop and looked rather sad in the Italian drizzle. Had a really good poke around for about 2 hours with the broker and the conclusion was that it ticked all the boxes, but needed a good clean, service, possible new cockpit upholstery, possible new covers and possible upgrades/improvements to the nav gear. But in general it looked like the engines and drives had been routinely serviced. The most noticeable two things were the condition of the cockpit - filthy, wet (leaking covers), damaged upholstery - and a large amount of water (fresh) accumulated in two of the bilge compartments in the hull (under the aft cabin area). Despite these negative points the layout, engines, drives and price all looked in the right area - so it was still on the list.
Boat 2 (on with the same brokerage) was a slightly older Absolute 41 on for more money.


This one was afloat in the marina, but was having somne work done - it was actually halfway through having the teak bathing platform replaced with new teak. Had another hour or so going over this one and although the quality of the internal fitout was superior to the Bavaria the use of space made it seem much much smaller. This was particulary the case with the cockpit - having a smaller seating area with a fixed sunpad over a tender garage left a rather cramped and unsociable cockpit - BUT the saloon and cabins felt dood and well finished. Internally it was well maintained, except for what appeared to be leaking ports/windows where rust stains were evident down the interior lining (this turned out to be a 'feature' I found on all the Absolutes I looked at). What did put me off was the engine bay access. Although routine access was though a small hatch in the cockpit, for any more significant service/maintenance the removal of the tender garage floor was necessary - even then access wasn't great. As a consequence the engine bay looked seriously unloved with plenty of rusty components and a general lack of care having been taken of the engines. So this one looked like it was going to drop off the shortlist due to the asking price and general condition.
The rest of the day I spent driving along the NW Italian coast from Varazze towards San Remo visiting some lovely marinas and ports (even if it was a drizzly damp March day !). I ended up in San Remo which had changed a huge amount since the last time I visited in 1991 while travelling down the Italian west coast in a 27' sailing boat. Anyway - back to the present boat hunt.

Day 3 - I had arranged a viewing of another Absolute 41 with a different broker somewhere south of Genoa - it was all a bit vague, but following a phone call to the broker, who spoke virtually no English and with by very basic Italian I arranged to meet a man from the shipyard where the boat was located outside a hotel in Santa Margherita Ligure. Well the day dawned much brighter and after an early breakfast I set off to meet an unknown man, outside a random hotel to view a boat at a shipyard somewhere (unknown) south of Genoa - not the most confirmed of appointments !! After driving round Genoa and then down the coast past some smart looking marinas at Rapallo and ending up outside the agreed hotel (closed) in Santa Margherta Ligure I presumed the boat would be afloat somewhere nearby. Oh how wrong !! Having waited about half an hour at the agreed spot, still no sign of the man from the shipyard - so another call to the broker, who said the man was on his way. Another 20 minutes and a guy arrives in a car, but doesn't speak ANY English. With the universal language of gestures and sign language I conclude that I should hop back in the car and follow this guy to the boat. He indicates about 15 minutes away. So off we set down the coast, past the marinas I'd already driven by that morning, through Rapallo and out onto the motorway heading south. And we kept going .... for about 20 minutes. Then off the motorway towards Lavagna and Chiavari where there are a couple of large marinas. But when we come off the motorway, instead of heading towards the coast we turn and head inland up the river valley !! ? Oh well I've come this far - may as well keep going ! We travel for about 10 minutes inland until we turn off the main road into a small industrial zone where there is a large - old - run down - warehouse - a big warehouse !





More in the next couple of days when I get chance to continue the write up.....

 

[scubaman]

Thank you for the very interesting write up. Ended with a right cliffhanger too .

Looking forward to the rest of the story.

 

[oldgit]

Thanks for posting this,the most interesting post in ages.
Despite the fall in the £ and a couple of salutary tales, still considering the path you took regards buying a boat from Italy.

 

[mparrish]

Next instalment !

So the warehouse is basically a giant tin shed - once the non speaking guy opens the door we step into a world of boats of all shapes and sizes - probably about 40 in total. Many were covered in polythene sheets, but some, like the one just inside the door were uncovered and being worked on by a couple of old guys. The one buy the door is an old gentlemans launch about 35 foot. So where is the Absolute I've come to see ? After a few minutes of searching for a ladder I'm ushered towards the back of the shed and the Absolute 41 - covered in polythene. After leaning the ladder against the wall of the shed and uncovering the stern of the boat I'm shown round an Absolute 41 that looks like the family who own it stepped off it in the last throws of last summer and parked it straight in the shed !! There are personal items all over the place - clothes, sun glasses, a coffee machine, books, sunhat - you name it they left it. Not a great start. Having had a good look around for about 20 minutes the boat internally is actually in ok condition other than being dirty and untidy. SO next we move on to the engine bay. Due to the clutter and polythene covering access through the tender garage is difficult so I drop into the engine bay through the small cockpit hatch. Here I'm treated to a whole new world of uncared for engines - there is even 6 inches of water left in the bilges from last summer ! Rust in lots of places there shouldn't be rust, including a particularly brown rusty hydraulic pump assembly. Another one off the list !
Here's a photo of how to leave your tender garage when putting your pride and joy up for sale !


Following this roaring success I decided to visit the marina at Lavagna and have a wonder around in the sunshine ! Didn't manage to find anything suitable for sale, but saw a few interesting looking boats.


So, after an hour or so wondering around the marina I set off for the other side of Italy. I had an overnight stop booked in Treviso. What a beautiful town ! Had a look round and a very good meal in a small restaurant in the centre.

The following day I had a Bavaria 37 to view at Aprilia Maritima, near Lignano Sabbiadoro between Venice and Trieste. An interesting place - a completely souless holiday area built around a series of marinas behind a large lagoon. It turned out to be setup like a giant Butlins but apparently catering for a largely german tourist crowd. It being March the place was closed. Visited two brokers - one not interested in selling anything and the other had a the Bavaria 37 that while in pretty good order was well overpriced. So I spent the remainder of the day visiting a selection of marinas in the area. An interesting area, but not one I would rush back to visit ! A bit of a ghost town in March.


The Absolute 40HT turned out to be not available for viewing on the day I was available to see it ! So it was a quick dash back to Treviso airport and a flight back to Stanstead.

Of all the boats I viewed I ended up back at the first one I'd seen. On returning home and discussing the options with the family and reviewing the photos of the Bavaria 37 in Varazze we decided to put an offer in. We initially offered about 12% off the asking price, which was not accepted, but a later offer of 10% less than asking price was. So then the fun really started in wading through the Italian bureaucratic procedures.

I had seen some of the background paperwork while in Italy, but now requested sight of the service history, leasing arrangement (amount owed), registration, etc. This was all covered under the Memorandum of Agreement for the purchase which was drawn up by the broker and amended to my requirements, prior to me parting with any money. The boat was owned by a Italian guy from new, but was actually purchased through an Italian bank on a leasing scheme and the vessel was registered in Olbia (Sardinia), so the purchase was not exactly straightforward !

More on this, the surveyors visit and the boats return to the UK in the next episode.