Buying a boat in greece
- Thread starter boatmike
- Start date
Tranona
Well-known member
TBH I think that is a con. It is not an official site. A number of states in the EU have similar visas and residence NONE of them give the right of travel in the EU outside the Schengen rules.
Much as you and others would like it to be the case, there is no way of avoiding Schengen rules for tourist stays. All visas and state residence are specific to a state or employment/student.
Seems like you have been asleep since 2017 when it became quite clear that UK leaving the EU would mean becoming third country which would remove the right to unrestricted travel within the EU except in circumstances agreed in the withdrawal agreement which are primarily restricted to UK citizens married to EU citizens and travelling with them.
Much as you and others would like it to be the case, there is no way of avoiding Schengen rules for tourist stays. All visas and state residence are specific to a state or employment/student.
Seems like you have been asleep since 2017 when it became quite clear that UK leaving the EU would mean becoming third country which would remove the right to unrestricted travel within the EU except in circumstances agreed in the withdrawal agreement which are primarily restricted to UK citizens married to EU citizens and travelling with them.
AndersG
Active member
Any EU resident visa gives you the right to travel visa free in the EU but that's only a benefit for those nationalities that needs a visa and brittish citizens does not need a visa. You are still bound by the 90/180 in Schengen countries outside the country where you are resident.My bad and apologies in post # 15 i made an inference the GK golden pass allowed my mate 90/180 in the rest of the eu .
it doesn’t.Spurred on by Tranona the link i posted say this .
Third party status just keeps on giving guys.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Golden visa comes with restrictions living on a boat isn’t one , buying a property @ X valve is onen another one is starting a business in said country, both you need X amount of saving .
even tho it doesn’t do away with the 90/180 rule in other countrie.
there a few ways to get around this , one is marry a EU citizen ( a bit drastic ) due national, become a EU citizen there are the legal ways ,
then there the illegal ways .
we won’t go there .
even tho it doesn’t do away with the 90/180 rule in other countrie.
there a few ways to get around this , one is marry a EU citizen ( a bit drastic ) due national, become a EU citizen there are the legal ways ,
then there the illegal ways .
we won’t go there .
Portofino
Well-known member
GK and it’s waters is plenty for a sailboat for a indefinite time with there “ golden pass “ Esp if previous ground was croatia .
My mates never set foot in his apartment.He has spent 3 days in Athens within the 4 walls of a lawyers office and other officialdom s getting it all sorted , the pass .
Tranona
Well-known member
That is an expensive way of getting Greek residence. If that is what you want to be able to sail all year round then there are much cheaper and easier ways of doing it.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
Each of the EU member countries is a sovereign nation. Being a sovereign nation means each EU country can decide the following with respect to non-EU citizens:
1. Who they grant residency to and for how long and what criteria need to be met.
2. What visas are needed to live and work in their country.
These sovereign nations also agreed to the Schengen area and a limitation of 90 days in 180 for any 3rd country visitors as it was deemed enough to enable tourism, but not enough for black market workers to complete a summer or winter season.
The granting of residency in one EU country does not change the Schengen rules in any other EU country - it just allows a 3rd country citizen to reside in the country they have residency for as long as their residency permit allows. For example, why on earth would Italy agree to a 3rd country citizen with a residency permit for Greece being allowed to stay indefinitely in Italy? No single EU coutry can grant EU freedom of movement by any means other than granting citizenship.
The EU is aware that some EU countries (e.g. Malta) have been abusing this process to grant citizenship, and therefore EU freedom of movement, to 3rd country citizens who make the necessary "investment".
Malta Golden Visa & Passport - Malta Citizenship by Investment / Permanent Residency Programme
So unless you have significant money to invest, have a birth-right to citizenship of an EU country, or an EU spouse, then Schengen rules are going to be applied to you.
1. Who they grant residency to and for how long and what criteria need to be met.
2. What visas are needed to live and work in their country.
These sovereign nations also agreed to the Schengen area and a limitation of 90 days in 180 for any 3rd country visitors as it was deemed enough to enable tourism, but not enough for black market workers to complete a summer or winter season.
The granting of residency in one EU country does not change the Schengen rules in any other EU country - it just allows a 3rd country citizen to reside in the country they have residency for as long as their residency permit allows. For example, why on earth would Italy agree to a 3rd country citizen with a residency permit for Greece being allowed to stay indefinitely in Italy? No single EU coutry can grant EU freedom of movement by any means other than granting citizenship.
The EU is aware that some EU countries (e.g. Malta) have been abusing this process to grant citizenship, and therefore EU freedom of movement, to 3rd country citizens who make the necessary "investment".
Malta Golden Visa & Passport - Malta Citizenship by Investment / Permanent Residency Programme
So unless you have significant money to invest, have a birth-right to citizenship of an EU country, or an EU spouse, then Schengen rules are going to be applied to you.
AndrewB
Well-known member
That's the theory but in practice it doesn't work. If I show my Greek residency permit at French immigration as I cross from Dover, they should not stamp my passport, but under the rules allow me transit to Greece. If then I spend six months in Italy at my mate's villa and return to UK waving my permit again, no-one is the wiser.
In practice French immigration officials seem quite uncertain what to do about this. Sometimes when I cross they stamp my passport, sometimes not. If they do, then I might fly back to UK from Greece (no passport stamp), and later on again re-enter France again, according to them never having left. Sort that one out, Froggies!
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
It's not the theory, it's the law. In practice, enforcement is difficult due to open borders and lack of personnel on the borders - leading to reasonable doubt about time spent in Schengen.
I have 2 UK friends who have residency in Italy where they live and work. They travel on UK passports and an Italian residency permit.
They were told by the Italian authorities that they should get their UK passports stamped when leaving Italy and entering the rest of the Schengen area, and stamped again when they return to Italy. The Italian explanation was that this removes all doubt about how long they spent in Italy/Schengen so they would never have a problem proving they didn't break the 90/180 rules for Schengen.
I don't know if this is an Italian recommendation to all residents from the UK or if it was just advice from their local office, but it certainly puts the onus on them to ensure they get the necessary stamps to prove time in Italy/time in Schengen. Failure to get a stamp is now their fault, and the consequences are that they could be liable if found in Schengen without an entry stamp - probably just a fine, but it does worry them.
Only time will tell if this becomes EU wide advice, or if the cost of providing the border facilities to enable this is deemed too expensive to bother with, and they continue to turn a blind eye.
Will see what happens when the ETIAS system is rolled out. I have heard some rumours that 3rd country residents in the EU will have to enter their own travel dates for leaving/entering their country of residence - would kind of make sense - if you are found out of your country of residence without an entry in ETIAS, then your goose is cooked, and if you do enter travel data and subsequently overstay, then your goose is also cooked.
We can only see how this plays out long term, but I have had my lack of entry stamp on my UK passport queried in Munich Airport, and was saved from further interrogation by having German citizenship and a German passport. If I hadn't had this, I would certainly have missed my flight, and probably been fined around €500. I now travel on my German passport exclusively, except when entering the UK.
Obviously citizenship of an EU country is a Schengen free pass, but I have an American friend who got into an altercation when she was chewed out by a border official for failing to present her German residency at the same time as her US passport. We did not know what they were going to do with her even though her only fault was not to identify herself as a German resident. Fortunately, in the end, her US passport was stamped after a number of checks and questions and they let us through.
The biggest problem at the moment is the lack of consistency in applying the rules, and the interpretation by individual border personnel.
westernman
Well-known member
How?
Whenever I have crossed a Shengen border there has been no immigration control and no possibility to get a passport stamped.
For instance when flying Paris/Athens, no immigration to be seen anywhere.
For instance driving France/Spain, you go across the border at 110km/h. Nowhere legal to pull off, and nowhere to get any passport stamped.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
Basically, that is exactly their problem. They are expected to search out the relevant authority at the Italian border crossings and present their passports and ask for a stamp. They don't know where these places are.
This apparently is the one on the Brenner Autobahn from Austria to Italy ...
I guess it's a similar problem to UK yachts crossing the channel .... you are supposed to go and hunt out the relevant official and get a passport stamp.
Tranona
Well-known member
Difference with cross channel is that now there are more places to check in and out and better information on how to do it so much less of a problem.
Still a typical EU sticking plaster to cover a fundamentally flawed system.
Still a typical EU sticking plaster to cover a fundamentally flawed system.
westernman
Well-known member
The EU says that a stamp should not be made:-
Taken from EU document http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2009:0489:FIN:EN:PDF
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
That document was from 2009 ... so things have changed a bit since then.
There are now 3 classes of UK citizen
1. Those with residency in their EU host state protected by the withdrawal agreement,
2. Those with residency in their host state obtained post-withdrawal agreement
3. Those with citizenship of an EU state in addition to UK citizenship.
4. Ordinary UK tourists.
1 and 2 are treated slightly differently, which is detailed in the link below "Practical Handbook for Border Guards (Schengen Handbook)". They can reside in their country of residence dependent on their status and permit, but they do not have free movement in the Schengen area outside their country of residence and must abide by the 90/180 rule.
3. Have free movement as EU citizens.
4. Are always bound by the 90/180 rule in the entire Schengen Area
This is specifically the part of the rules where my friends in Italy (protected by withdrawal agreement) were requested to get passports stamped.
It is also clear that residency in an EU country does not exempt you from the 90/180 rule in the wider Schengen area.
Link to the above text: Travel documents for UK nationals and their family members residing in an EU country - Your Europe
There is also an interesting document detailing what border guards must do:
https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-11/Practical handbook for border guards_en.pdf
... the EU Commission is aware that not all of them have bothered to read and understand it. If challenged on a Schengen over-stay however, the onus is on the person travelling to convince the border authorities, with the necessary supporting evidence, that there has been no overstay. If an overstay is suspected then the action of the border guards is clearly stated in their handbook.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
So glad I cruise on a boat , don't seen to get the hassle others get,
UK, Netherlands, Germany,Denmark and not an official met so far this year
UK, Netherlands, Germany,Denmark and not an official met so far this year
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
As long as you abide by the 90/180 rules and have the evidence to prove it then you'll be fine .... do bear in mind though that if you are found in the EU without an entry stamp or a 90 day overstay then there will be consequences - as others have found out to their cost.
France ordered 115 Brits to leave country since Brexit, EU data shows
... obviously it is up to you, but IMO it is not a great idea to risk your lifestyle for a few days every now and then complying with immigration rules.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Thanks for the link , I have to say its done nothing for me or change my thinking .
If you Google you always find some thing to frightened the living daylight out of you if your that way in cline,
I rather look at life in reality , personally experience and what really going on and judge how to go from there.
Other wise I may just as well not get out of bed in case I get covid or die from it.
Much more life threatening then what may happen if I overstay in the EU .
England Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK
