Buying a boat in greece

[boatmike]

Am seriously considering buying a boat in Greece and using it as a "holiday home" Intention would be to fly out periodically and stay no more than 3 months at a time. Boat is UK registered and VAT paid. What are the implications for such an arrangement? The boat would be intended to be kept in the med long term. Is this a problem?

 

[Tranona]

In theory no problem as the boat iss EU VAT paid, but useful to get confirmation from the seller that it was in Greece on 31/12/2020 and have the Bill of Sale notarised in Greece to confirm that it was bought there.

However as you will see from the recent thread (6 down from yours) on the subject there still seems to be a problem with the Greeks confusing registration state with VAT status so it might be worth checking with the CA on the latest state of play. You will need to plan carefully to maximise your time in Greece within the 90/180 rule. Greece has a definite summer season April to October so getting 2 lots of 90 days within the rules would mean going into winter months.

 

[boatmike]

Thanks Trenona, Bear with me, I am not completely aware of the situation with the EU since Brexit but assume all the problems with boats from the UK checking in and out of the EU are not in fact a problem here as the vessel will stay put in Greece and only skipper and crew would come and go. I assume that we would do so effectively as "tourists" providing we don't stay longer than 2 lots of 90 days? Is that what you meant by the 90/180 rule? And the significance of 31/12/2020 has to do with Brexit also? Can you please spell out for me the implications of being in Greece before and after that date please? Can a British registered and owned boat stay in Greece indefinitely assuming her owner is not on board more than the allowed stay?
Thanks but I am a bit dumb on these matters as have been UK bound for some years!

 

[Hooligan]

For a boat to be considered VAT paid in the EU it must have been actually in the EU at midnight on Dec 31 2020 and have paid VAT within the old EU ie including the U.K. before this. Hence the recommendation to have proof of both. For the former usually a letter from the marina where it was residing at that time. Greece has been a bit strange re foreign registered boats and there is a little confusion re this so read the thread suggested. The fact though is that your new boat needs to meet these two criteria at the basic level. Re 90/180, that is a rule that applies to all U.K. citizens now unless they hold EU passports. You cannot spend more than 90 days over a 180 day period in any Schengen country - this is combined ie 30 days in Grance and 30 in Greece = 60 days. . As your passport is now stamped in and out they can count the days. So if you say spent 90 days consecutively from June through August, you would not be able to travel anywhere else in any Schengen country for the next 90 days. I am sure I have missed something but this is the gist of it.

 

[Tranona]

Quite straight forward. The boat status is subject to EU VAT rules. Registration and ownership is irrelevant. The withdrawal agreement says that all boats in the EU on 31/12/2020 automatically become EU VAT paid IF they were considered VAT paid before. That is not in the EU as third party boats. Almost certainly the UK owned boat you buy will be covered by this rule. It can then move freely around the EU and be bought and sold within the EU without any VAT. However if it returns to the UK it will be subject to VAT if the new owner is a UK resident. my warning about the potential problem in Greece is that to operate a boat there you have to get a cruising log and pay a cruising tax and their rules for that seem to depend on state of registration rather than EU VAT rules. The problem with Greece cis that not only do they have a record of not complying with EU law but also of varying interpretation in different locations - there are Port Police in almost every port who tend to have their own view on what the rules are. On the other hand there are hundreds if not thousands of boats in Greece with similar histories to what yours will have. The Cruising Association is very active in dealing with the Greek authorities on behalf of UK boat owners and if necessary taking them to the Commission to get them to comply with EU rules. That is why I suggested you contact them for the latest situation.

Your movements are covered by the Schengen rules for third country nationals which limit you to 90 days out of any 180. They publish an on line tool which allows you to work out how you can use your allowance.

I don't know how much experience you have of boating in Greece, but while it is a lovely place to keep a boat it is no longer the uncrowded low cost paradise that it used to be. I first went in 1999 when you could have dinner with all the booze a normal person could need for £5 and berthing on town quays was mostly free. We bought a boat in 2001 and berthing fees were about a third of what they were in the UK. I sailed the boat back to the UK in 2010 partly because the costs were rising so quickly. Now costs are equal to or higher than the UK, although with your pattern of usage there are ways of effectively dry sailing and only paying cruising taxes when you are using the boat.

Worth taking a couple of weeks package holiday at end of season (September/October) in your chosen area and find out what is possible. We were based in Corfu but cruised as far south as Kefalonia plus to and from Athens through the canal. Many Brits keep their boats in Corfu or Preveza/Lefkas.

Hope this helps.

 

[Hooligan]

Not sure I totally agree re comment on costs being similar to U.K. I am in Ionian and for sure prices have and are rising. But berthing costs are a fraction of what you will pay in most anywhere else - Balearics, SoF, Italy, even Turkey, and definitely the U.K. Of course one has to compare like with like but in general for sure it is cheaper in Greece. The people are absolutely lovely, quality of boat supervision really good It does get crowded in July and August especially with fleets but these can be avoided once you know their patterns. There are also large areas that are hardly visited. Finally the food is very much better than common perception. Overall IMHO it is the best place we have cruised to date. But for sure as is the case in everything in the world today sadly it’s all getting more expensive.

 

[boatmike]

It does appear that having been totally UK based through and since the dreaded Brexit fiasco I have lost touch with all the crap that goes with no longer being "European"!
I now understand the 90/180 rule which is a pain.
I also get the stuff about VAT in Greece regarding keeping the boat there and take on board that Greece ain't quite what it was when I was a baby sailor in the 60s ( I am now 80 by the way!)
Bit of a bummer knowing that if I brought her back to UK I would have to pay a second lot of VAT though! Is there no way around this? Assume VAT would only be due on arrival in UK based on the purchase price? How would that work in practice? Not contemplating breaking the law of course but as the boat is UK SSR registered who actually polices it and sends you a bill? Or is this simply up to you to declare and seen as tax evasion if you don't?
If I were to sail her back to the English channel I assume I could keep her indefinitely in Cherbourg or somewhere such but it would cost me 20% of the purchase price to return to Portsmouth? Or have I got that wrong too?

 

[st599]

It does appear that having been totally UK based through and since the dreaded Brexit fiasco I have lost touch with all the crap that goes with no longer being "European"!
I now understand the 90/180 rule which is a pain.
I also get the stuff about VAT in Greece regarding keeping the boat there and take on board that Greece ain't quite what it was when I was a baby sailor in the 60s ( I am now 80 by the way!)
Bit of a bummer knowing that if I brought her back to UK I would have to pay a second lot of VAT though! Is there no way around this? Assume VAT would only be due on arrival in UK based on the purchase price? How would that work in practice? Not contemplating breaking the law of course but as the boat is UK SSR registered who actually polices it and sends you a bill? Or is this simply up to you to declare and seen as tax evasion if you don't?
If I were to sail her back to the English channel I assume I could keep her indefinitely in Cherbourg or somewhere such but it would cost me 20% of the purchase price to return to Portsmouth? Or have I got that wrong too?

The VAT is on what customs believe on the day of import the value to be. So if you grab a bargain, they can use the UK equivalent market price.
You declare your arrival with a taxable asset on the form you have to use for arriving in the UK by private vessel.

 

[westernman]

The VAT is on what customs believe on the day of import the value to be. So if you grab a bargain, they can use the UK equivalent market price.
You declare your arrival with a taxable asset on the form you have to use for arriving in the UK by private vessel.

My boat was built in Canada, and then almost immediately afterwards was sailed on its bottom to Cowes UK. It was imported into the UK and EU at that time. The value for accepted by customs was less than 1/3 of the build cost. It was of course a "used" boat when it arrived in Cowes.
The valuation was probably done before it was hosed down after the Atlantic crossing.

 

[Tranona]

It does appear that having been totally UK based through and since the dreaded Brexit fiasco I have lost touch with all the crap that goes with no longer being "European"!
I now understand the 90/180 rule which is a pain.
I also get the stuff about VAT in Greece regarding keeping the boat there and take on board that Greece ain't quite what it was when I was a baby sailor in the 60s ( I am now 80 by the way!)
Bit of a bummer knowing that if I brought her back to UK I would have to pay a second lot of VAT though! Is there no way around this? Assume VAT would only be due on arrival in UK based on the purchase price? How would that work in practice? Not contemplating breaking the law of course but as the boat is UK SSR registered who actually polices it and sends you a bill? Or is this simply up to you to declare and seen as tax evasion if you don't?
If I were to sail her back to the English channel I assume I could keep her indefinitely in Cherbourg or somewhere such but it would cost me 20% of the purchase price to return to Portsmouth? Or have I got that wrong too?

Once again, the fact that the boat is on the SSR is irrelevant, as is the citizenship of the owner. The movement of the boat is governed by the VAT rules. The boat you buy will be an "EU" boat and if you want to move it to the UK it becomes an import from the EU and is subject to both VAT and meeting UK standards. There is relief from the former IF you are the person who took the boat out of the UK. Obviously this relief dies if the boat is sold in the EU. The second issue of meeting standards is a bit more complicated as although the rules have been sort of decided they have not yet been implemented.

However that is sort of irrelevant because it really is not practical to bring a boat from Greece to the UK unless it has a high value. Greece is a long way away and there is no easy way of transporting it to the UK unless you use a ship or sail it to a port further north for example, Slovenia or SoF, or Southern Spain from where it can be transported by road. Both of these are expensive - think £10-15k for a modest 35' boat. Delivery by sea with a crew takes 4 weeks or more and likewise will cost between £5-10K plus the cost of getting the boat in a condition to undertake a passage of this length which includes going north up the Iberian coast and across Biscay. Clearly you can do it on your own in stages, but the restrictions of Schengen would mean it could take you 2 years. I have been through this process bringing my Bavaria 37 back from Greece in 2010, by sea to San Carles in Spain and then road to Poole. Cost with a professional skipper and one crew plus myself to Spain, truck and handling either end was around £8k.

If you do enter the UK with a "foreign" boat or indeed any boat you are legally obliged to notify customs and border control using the official system. Failure to declare an import is a criminal offence.

If you are going to buy a boat in Greece buy one that is clearly a Greek/EU one that will sell easily when you move on. As I said although it is perfectly legal for you to register it on the SSR, Greece has a history of hassle with third country registered boats. TBH the cost and hassle factors probably outweigh the benefits of keeping your own boat in Greece unless you use your whole 3 months. Mid summer is a nightmare because of overcrowding, particularly in the Ionian and around Athens, but 5 or 6 weeks in May/June and September/October would be perfect.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I just like to add , what ever the rules are or how Much we think we know and any advice given in these forum
don't always apply when it comes to Greece ,
here an example .

” WARNING regarding transit logs. We've discovered that our UK flagged, EU VAT paid boat that was in the EU at the time of Brexit DOES need a transit log and we are being fined €1300 by Customs in Corfu for not getting one when we launched a month ago. We have all the proof of the above and provided the AADE directives provided on this FB group, but they are adamant that we need one. Apparently the fact that our boat was originally Dutch registered until we changed to UK in April, was the determining factor. Doesn't make any sense, and is a very expensive lesson to learn. So always best to go to Customs before you launch to find out exactly what you need.”

 

[AndrewB]

I just like to add , what ever the rules are or how Much we think we know and any advice given in these forum
don't always apply when it comes to Greece ,
here an example ....

Although at a few places in Greece the Port Police have acquired a bad reputation, Corfu is not one of them. I have found both customs and Port Police easy to deal with. Are you sure this fine was not for non-payment of TEPAI (cruising tax)?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Although at a few places in Greece the Port Police have acquired a bad reputation, Corfu is not one of them. I have found both customs and Port Police easy to deal with. Are you sure this fine was not for non-payment of TEPAI (cruising tax)?

Andrew things have chance big time and not just in Corfu .
the day of the young police women who would bend over backward in Corfu have gone .
what I posted it an on going dispute and well known ,
I think it’s now been reported to the CA
it also Seen the police now consider if you cross from say Greece to Italy you have entered international waters and have left the EU, although they are not willing to stamp boat out of the EU to stop the clock while this happens
by the way this isn’t the first time the same situation as been reported .
this is another good reason why UK boats have over the last few years have used the polish flag, it save a lot of hassle.
im no doubt if they took the Greek to courts they would win but the average person hasn’t got the money or time to do so .
as you and I know Greece isn’t about what the law is but what the man on the day say it is.

 

[sailaboutvic]

@ AndwerB
another case from a few days ago .“

Checking into Greece today in Limnos we were told we had to have a transit log.
Our boat is UK flagged but was in the EU when Brexit started. We were given paperwork by the yard it was in to support this and cruised all through Greece last year carrying this thinking it made us exempt from the transit log fiasco.
We told the customs this and the woman stated it due to the fact we left Greece to go cruise Turkey for 3 months.
Can anyone shed further light on this?
Preferably someone who KNOWS.”

 

[Portofino]

A neighbour U.K. citizen only , recently bought a Athens fully managed for rental apartment and obtained what he calls a “ golden pass “ for GK waters .

His boat a Swan , is in Croatia and due to sail to GK - Corfu to begin with this yr .
Says the golden pass means he can stay in GK waters as long as he wants and the 90/180 only triggers when he enters ( unlikely) other Schengen waters .

The apartments bringing in a return FWIW on his capitol invested in € too filling his newly opened GK bank ac with rental € s ex commission from the agent.

 

[Tranona]

A neighbour U.K. citizen only , recently bought a Athens fully managed for rental apartment and obtained what he calls a “ golden pass “ for GK waters .

His boat a Swan , is in Croatia and due to sail to GK - Corfu to begin with this yr .
Says the golden pass means he can stay in GK waters as long as he wants and the 90/180 only triggers when he enters ( unlikely) other Schengen waters .

The apartments bringing in a return FWIW on his capitol invested in € too filling his newly opened GK bank ac with rental € s ex commission from the agent.

Please read the thread. It is nothing to do with Schengen 90/180, but is about the VAT status and freedom of circulation of EU VAT paid boats that are registered in the UK. The relevant law says such boats have free circulation but the Greeks are treating them as third country boats for the purposes of circulation in Greece.

As noted the CA is pursuing this and no doubt will end up with taking the Greek government to the commission to get them to comply with EU law. Inevitably this is not a quick process but the CA has been successful in the past going down this route.

 

[Portofino]

Please read the thread. It is nothing to do with Schengen 90/180, but is about the VAT status and freedom of circulation of EU VAT paid boats that are registered in the UK. The relevant law says such boats have free circulation but the Greeks are treating them as third country boats for the purposes of circulation in Greece.

As noted the CA is pursuing this and no doubt will end up with taking the Greek government to the commission to get them to comply with EU law. Inevitably this is not a quick process but the CA has been successful in the past going down this route.

The ops enquiring about “ holiday home “ boat in GK waters .( Has not bought it yet ) .Others chimed in re 90/180 which he is correctly basing his calcs on .
I was only offering up a well trodden path I am aware circumventing legitimately this so he could and others ( U.K. citizen ) reading this spend as long as they like GK waters , in the floating “ holiday home “

Obviously buy a local vat paid boat and due the dd to ensure it doesn’t trigger a VAT issue / bill .

Theres no science of the rocket here .

 

[Tranona]

The ops enquiring about “ holiday home “ boat in GK waters .( Has not bought it yet ) .Others chimed in re 90/180 which he is correctly basing his calcs on .
I was only offering up a well trodden path I am aware circumventing legitimately this so he could and others ( U.K. citizen ) reading this spend as long as they like GK waters , in the floating “ holiday home “

Obviously buy a local vat paid boat and due the dd to ensure it doesn’t trigger a VAT issue / bill .

Theres no science of the rocket here .

You have just made this up. There is no connection between keeping a boat in Greece and a residence scheme linked to ownership of property.

If you think that Greece offers such a scheme then please post a link. Boats are not "holiday homes" but means of transport in EU law.

You do seem to have a talent for totally missing the point of a question.

 

[Portofino]

You have just made this up. There is no connection between keeping a boat in Greece and a residence scheme linked to ownership of property.

If you think that Greece offers such a scheme then please post a link. Boats are not "holiday homes" but means of transport in EU law.

You do seem to have a talent for totally missing the point of a question.

It’s called a Greek golden pass .
The buying certain property means you can spend as long as you like in GK .
It could be on a boat .Thought i outlined that ?

 

[Portofino]

You have just made this up. There is no connection between keeping a boat in Greece and a residence scheme linked to ownership of property.

If you think that Greece offers such a scheme then please post a link. Boats are not "holiday homes" but means of transport in EU law.

You do seem to have a talent for totally missing the point of a question.

Jesus Tranona you have just seriously devalued your status as the guru on this sort of stuff .
What a brexit benifit as UK are 3 P .
Greece Golden Visa : The Ultimate Guide | Get Golden Visa

Open the other eye Ps