Buying a 20+ year old boat - Trader 47, Atlantic 444, Broom 42 etc..

[Seejay]

So preparing for imminent early semi-retirement, and after 15 years out of boating am looking to return, and looking for a c. 42 foot trawler/semi-displacement type boat which will be run mainly at displacement speed. around the Med. Thanks to earlier recommendations from forumites (thank-you) I was orientated towards a Beneteau Swift Trawler 42. That said I am also attracted by slightly larger and older models such as the 2 in the title and other similar models (suggestions?).Working to a budget of c. €200k this leads to an approx 2008 Beneteau Swift or a late nineties/2000 model of the larger title boats.
Question is this. How many more problems are these +10 years older boats likely to give me? My experience previously was for 8 years with a 30 year old(when I bought her) 37’ 1976 Italian wooden flybridge on twin 260hp Volvos, and gave me continual headaches (along with many years of joy!) but looking back, cost wise 80/90% of problems/costs were wood related (flybridge, transom, windows, hull, leaks, you name it!) but other than this only continuous yet fairly limited and very acceptable maintenance and nothing at all approaching what I would class “major”.
I realise that all boats give problems (sic), whatever their age, but how much does this increase (exponentially?) with age? And with a boat now 20/23 years old if the hull and superstructure are surveyed as fine and engine oil tests etc are ok?
I know its a big question and you never do really know, but generally speaking what are your thoughts??

 

[Greg2]

It is worth bearing in mind that many leisure boats get a relatively low level of use so engines/mechanicals are unlikely to wear out.

All of our six boats have been older because that is the only way we can afford the type of boat we want. Our current boat is a 2001 model and we did what we always do in terms of checking its history and getting a good survey and engine survey by an engineer. We have previously done oil analysis but didn’t this time as the oil was recently changed so no point. In any event, whilst it might show something that might raise a red card, sampling over time is when it becomes more useful and reliable.

Due diligence is important as it reduces the risk of problems but it can’t eradicate it. All of our boats have required a degree of maintenance over and above what you might say is routine but not to a level that would say is unreasonable. That said, I quite enjoy upgrading and sorting things as it helps in getting to know the boat properly and there is some satisfaction in knowing that things have been done as I would want them.

That said, faults can sometimes be wearisome - I found that the hydronic hearing system is leaking in our boat yesterday and due to difficult access it will be a challenge to find the source so that is my day taken care of! ?

 

[Seejay]

“I quite enjoy upgrading and sorting things”.... Yes so do I, although with very limited technical/DIY ability my wallet enjoys it somewhat less!

 

[oldgit]

Stick to glassfibre and
If you go on the principle that the seller is either an outright fibber or more charitably has simply forgotton to mention all the things that need doing on his boat you will not go far wrong.
Two schools of boat purchase, you fork out for an army of folks to crawl over the boat with fine tooth comb and hope to discover hopefully pre-purchase whats wrong and adjust office price or you go on your previous experience and bid sufficiently low to cover all/most likely problems given age of boat, then walk away, leaving your phone number
Suppose it boils down to if you merely want that sort of boat or you desperately desperately want that particular boat, then the seller really has you by the short and curlies

 

[AndieMac]

The market appears quite buoyant currently, plenty of about to retire folk re-evaluating their lifestyles, whether it be boats, holiday homes or caravan/camper vans, so bargains may be slim.
It will be prudent to become fully aware and as hands-on as you can be with all your boat systems to not become a victim of overpriced and under qualified “tradespeople” regardless of which country location you end up in. Dedicate time and effort to hone boat systems understanding skills, plenty of info on the net (forums) and other boaters around your marina, if you take the opportunity. Ask questions, get onto other similar boats and pick the owners brains, you will soon realise this is not rocket science. You will then develop more confidence and less likely to be overwhelmed when issues arise......and they will
You can’t really bundle a boats quality into an age grouping, it will very much depend on how the boat has been maintained over the years, and it certainly won’t be on engine hours alone.
Recreational boating hours are generally minimal, marine age will create the problems, and only regular proper servicing will mitigate this.

 

[Seejay]

Many thanks. I suppose I was wondering if more expensive boats of the same age (ie Broom, Trader, Hardy etc compared with the Beneteau) are indication of a better build quality and so ultimately fewer problems? A 10 yr old BMW in my experience gives fewer problems than a 10 year old Ford, and understandably costs more. Was wondering if these first boats are in the bmw category and the Beneteau in the Ford bracket......or does the analogy not work?

 

[oldgit]

Many thanks. I suppose I was wondering if more expensive boats of the same age (ie Broom, Trader, Hardy etc compared with the Beneteau) are indication of a better build quality and so ultimately fewer problems? A 10 yr old BMW in my experience gives fewer problems than a 10 year old Ford, and understandably costs more. Was wondering if these first boats are in the bmw category and the Beneteau in the Ford bracket......or does the analogy not work?

IMHO, the argument that BMWs are more reliable than Fords is not accurate.Having spent a considerable time in the private hire and taxi trade dealing in the main with older vehicles, the BMW or any other "prestige" marque will be no more reliable over time.
The only difference is that the old BMW/ Merc/Audi will be eyewateringly expensive to sort out, probably requiring some sort of specialist attention, whereas everyman and his dog will have go at your Ford.

" Ordinary" boats of whatever flavour have only one real choice of power VOLVO or a tiny selection of alternatives,the only real difference.... the installation .
ie. dificult to get at or maintain or virtually impossible.

Reliability entirely down to previous owner.
First owner will get out his credit card at regular intervals and man in white coat will turn up in a white van with a company logo on the side..
The van will spent some time in the marina car park afterwards, while the enginer fills out a lot of paperwork or taps stuff into an Ipad., this is on no account a way of killing time at the customers expense.
The second owner will get the local marine spannerman on the job, he will probably arrive (eventually) in an old estate of some description .
The third will do stuff himself ,having previously called in at the local motor factor (or Ebay). He will arrive in his overalls and leave in a foul temper having broken several bits of boat.
The penultimate owner will do just enough to get the boat sold.
The last owner just wishes he had never bought it in the first place, he will not have been near the boat since cleaning it for sale months ago and has just received his marina bill.

 

[markc]

Many thanks. I suppose I was wondering if more expensive boats of the same age (ie Broom, Trader, Hardy etc compared with the Beneteau) are indication of a better build quality and so ultimately fewer problems? A 10 yr old BMW in my experience gives fewer problems than a 10 year old Ford, and understandably costs more. Was wondering if these first boats are in the bmw category and the Beneteau in the Ford bracket......or does the analogy not work?

I have an older boat, and one thing that I think plays a really important part to the quantity of problems that you may experience, is the quality of fittings used when the boat was built. Not withstanding that the engines, genny etc should have a record of being well maintained, but its the 'small' things that can mount up. Everything from the quality of deck fittings, fasteners (eg, were self tappers used all over the place to make build cheaper?), water pump, toilets, plumbing to the quality of joinery etc. I think these are the majority of problems that start to show up on an older boat, so a boat that was better built with better components in the first place is likely to give you fewer problems as it gets older.

 

[Seejay]

IMHO, the argument that BMWs are more reliable than Fords is not accurate.Having spent a considerable time in the private hire and taxi trade dealing in the main with older vehicles, the BMW or any other "prestige" marque will be no more reliable over time.
The only difference is that the old BMW/ Merc/Audi will be eyewateringly expensive to sort out, probably requiring some sort of specialist attention, whereas everyman and his dog will have go at your Ford.

" Ordinary" boats of whatever flavour have only one real choice of power VOLVO or a tiny selection of alternatives,the only real difference.... the installation .
ie. dificult to get at or maintain or virtually impossible.

Reliability entirely down to previous owner.
First owner will get out his credit card at regular intervals and man in white coat will turn up in a white van with a company logo on the side..
The van will spent some time in the marina car park afterwards, while the enginer fills out a lot of paperwork or taps stuff into an Ipad., this is on no account a way of killing time at the customers expense.
The second owner will get the local marine spannerman on the job, he will probably arrive (eventually) in an old estate of some description .
The third will do stuff himself ,having previously called in at the local motor factor (or Ebay). He will arrive in his overalls and leave in a foul temper having broken several bits of boat.
The penultimate owner will do just enough to get the boat sold.
The last owner just wishes he had never bought it in the first place, he will not have been near the boat since cleaning it for sale months ago and has just received his marina bill.

Lovely description, thanks! Clear....

The BMW analogy is just from personal experience having owned many cars but only one Sierra and one 6 series.

Interesting your comment on Volvos. The boats I have seen which could be of interest have Volvos maybe half the time but also Cummins, Caterpillar, Yanmar ecc. Is there any real difference??

 

[Seejay]

I have an older boat, and one thing that I think plays a really important part to the quantity of problems that you may experience, is the quality of fittings used when the boat was built. Not withstanding that the engines, genny etc should have a record of being well maintained, but its the 'small' things that can mount up. Everything from the quality of deck fittings, fasteners (eg, were self tappers used all over the place to make build cheaper?), water pump, toilets, plumbing to the quality of joinery etc. I think these are the majority of problems that start to show up on an older boat, so a boat that was better built with better components in the first place is likely to give you fewer problems as it gets older.

And this is the point I was getting at, trying to understand if there are makes which are known for better quality and for using higher quality fittings than others? Such as those in my title vs a Beneteau for example...?

 

[kashurst]

For me engine/machinery access is extremely important. Not only does it mean the oily bits will be easy to look after properly, it means it is much more likely they have been looked after correctly by previous owners. Good engine access comes from good overall design - often everything is packed in too tight and too close together - OK when the boat was built in a factory but not OK later.
I am boat number 6 now over 20 years. When looking for the current boat I specifically didn't have a particular boat or make in mind. I set a budget and looked for a clean engine bay with great access first, then looked to see if the boat was in good condition.

 

[kashurst]

And this is the point I was getting at, trying to understand if there are makes which are known for better quality and for using higher quality fittings than others? Such as those in my title vs a Beneteau for example...?

Yes there are, the more expensive Italian yards and the big long distance builders like Flemming use more expensive kit. Beneteau are a high volume builder so they tend to use good value kit rather than the best available. That said on any boat the most important things are the quality of the hull construction, how well looked after and installed are the engines and gearboxes and the steering gear.
Everything else is usually easy to replace - skin fittings and seacocks don't last forever anyway. Rule bilge and shower pumps are a bit brittle what ever boat they are in. Johnson water pumps seem pretty reliable. Look closely at the quality of the fuel and water tanks.
Of the boats you are interested in I would say the broom/atlantic is a better built hull. Beneteau I think use cored hulls, brooms a solid fibreglass. Cored hulls are OK as long as they don't get a bad impact. A good surveyor will be able to check properly. But chances are the engines etc will be the same/similar. I don't want to put you off a Swift Trawler - I really like them, just the thing for cruising the med - what ever boat you pick a good surveyor will make sure the hull is sound.

 

[Canopy Locked]

Very much agree with the above . access, access access. To the engine room, with room to move around it and not forgetting the electrical system and main panel.

 

[Nito]

That's a healthy budget, good luck with your search.

I'm looking at a 35 year old Sunseeker 33 at the moment. The budget would allow for modern cheaper stuff, but I have a penchant for classic Sunseekers and there is a feeling of solidity with the older stuff. It feels like it was built in a time of opulence and quality rather than value and design engineered to be as lean as possible. Post recession stuff is likely to be far more rationalised by the bean counters. I've noticed this in cars so I doubt its any different with boats.

In the meantime, I feel far more comfortable with older tech, it's a case of better the devil you know you can fix...modern electronics and canbus communications etc are not something I'm down with, all the extra sensors which are almost always the problem with modern stuff (to achieve max economy and emissions efficiency etc) can make it difficult to track down intermittent faults, needing to plug in a computer puts you in the hands of 'specialists'. I have quite a few motorbikes which I work on myself ranging from 1985-2018, the only one I will struggle with is a 2018 Ducati which has already started to throw the odd engine light which soon clears but it means having to visit a dealer with the machine to interrogate the bike. The local dealer is rubbish judging by the workmanship on my last service which means now its out of warranty it won't be going back but the ecu and engine management functions will always be something that I will be at the mercy of the dealer unless a suitable aftermarket suite becomes available.

So for me, as has been mentioned above, access is vital if you're going to work on it yourself, this means not something that is well packaged, but well designed, a good pedigree coat builder will hopefully have paid good attention to this and the tell tale signs will be everywhere. I went to view the Sunseeker at the weekend and there are access panels everywhere to enable wiring runs etc. It's a heavy lay up, feels super solid, ticks every box for us apart from flipping Osmosis (1985) which has had me researching every corner of the internet swotting up to become an expert on Osmosis! Boat yards want between 12-16k to carry out osmosis treatment, I got a dressing down from a highly regarded surveyor for the mere mention of certain boat yards which has left me looking at doing the work myself, this costs up at between 6-8k (depending on whether I go with soda blasting and a poly tunnel for the whole time) allowing for all materials/tools 9 months ashore and a polytunnel for an international 4 coat system and coppercoat system on top.

I've downloaded the workshop manual for the Volvo Penta engines and outdrives and feel very comfortable with them, parts and support are still available, they're regarded as a bullet proof engine and the boat has had regular use and a great provenance. There will always be something. Everyone who owns boats has warned me off a 35 year old boat, warned away from sterndrives, and especially osmosis, I'm trying to keep as open mind as possible but find I'm making excuses all the time, they're probably right, a tub with outboards would be far less of headache but it's just not the type of boat that we want.

I say go with the pedigree builder older boat with a good history and regular use. Low owners would be a bonus!

 

[Greg2]

Lovely description, thanks! Clear....

The BMW analogy is just from personal experience having owned many cars but only one Sierra and one 6 series.

Interesting your comment on Volvos. The boats I have seen which could be of interest have Volvos maybe half the time but also Cummins, Caterpillar, Yanmar ecc. Is there any real difference??

Engine makes other than Volvo are good but worth researching particular models and be aware that some are engineered so finely that a rebuild in the event of failure may not be possible. Some Yanmars fall into this category and their parts are eye wateringly expensive (but some models are were used by Toyota so identifying corresponding part numbers can save money).

It is worth saying that not all ownership patterns follow oldgit‘s humorous illustration. With our boat it appears that the second (of three) previous owners neglected things a little but the third looked after the oily bits, not least because they cruised extensively.

Engine access is important but, like everything else with a boat, there may be compromises to make. We just went from a spacious engine bay that easily accommodated even my 6’5” frame, to a boat where access is tight and some things are difficult to get to but it was the boat we wanted because it ticked a lot of other boxes.

On the quality issue I think most boats from the main builders are fit for purpose so it comes down to personal choice. For us older ‘quality’ boats are our preference over newer ‘production line’ options but that is just preference and others will prefer something newer and more contemporary. Thankfully we don’t all want the same thing ?
.

 

[kashurst]

how bad is the osmosis? if its just a few patches I would grind it out, rinse it all out with clean water, let it dry for a few days then repair with epoxy filler.

 

[Nito]

how bad is the osmosis? if its just a few patches I would grind it out, rinse it all out with clean water, let it dry for a few days then repair with epoxy filler.

It's lots of small 4mm blisters all over below the waterline. The boat had a gel peel and international epoxy treatment in 1998 followed by copper coat in 2009 so it has already had it's gel coat removed below the waterline. The surveyor has scraped back the copper coat to the laminate and it's not very thick and looks like it won't be too hard to shift. The laminate behind looks ok for the moment (in the area observed). The plan would be to put it on a hard standing with a polytunnel over it, strip the layers, steam clean many times then let it breath for as many months as it takes to get the correct moisture reading, then epoxy with International Gelshield (4 coats and interfill after first coat if necessary) then coppercoat on top. I've costed the Marina fees and materials, lifts etc, comes to between 6-8k which excludes any of our time. We love the boat, but it's a lot of hassle before even having a chance to enjoy the thing and there are no guarantees the pox won't come back or that future buyers won't turn their nose up vs a boat that doesn't have this. Seems many 90's sunseekers aren't affected and still have original gel coats according to owners.

Head is spinning from information overload at the moment. I'm proficient with mechanical side, no experience with hulls but I am pretty OCD which bodes well for that sort of process...or does it