Buy the biggest boat you can or buy small and sail longer?
- Thread starter ross84
- Start date
V1701
Well-Known Member
If he's got or planning to raise £30k and that's the whole budget for the boat & the cruising fund then really any boat (say over 26 feet or between 26 & 32 feet or whatever if you want to) that has a recent(ish) inboard engine, standing rigging, sails & a sound hull for under £10k or something has got to be a contender hasn't it? And if it doesn't have at least that then it's off the list. If it also has things like a tiller pilot, dinghy, outboard, good ground tackle, etc. then even better but when the budget to include all costs is as low as that there's not going to be very much choice. However such boats are available you just have to hunt them down...
DownWest
Well-Known Member
Talking about Virtues, read 'My Old Man and the Sea'. Father and son sailed a GRP Virtue from New England down to the Carib, through the canal, round the Horn and back home. Good story on different levels. Oh, and no engine.
Babylon
Well-Known Member
A Vancouver 27 will safely take you round the world if you like, a very tough cutter-rigged, long-keeled yacht with stowage to match a much larger vessel:
https://www.vancouveryachtsassociation.org.uk/
http://www.bosunbird.com/page22.php
There are usually several 27's available around your budget, however be aware that a 35-40 year old boat in the lower price range will probably require a new engine at some stage - and all older yachts will need some money/time spent on them.
https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/category/type/Vancouver/27
Originally designed for a couple to sail from Vancouver to New Zealand, so not a broachy, thin-skinned party boat.
I've had my 1982 example for 12 years now, sailing up, down and across the Channel single-handed or two-up.
https://www.vancouveryachtsassociation.org.uk/
http://www.bosunbird.com/page22.php
There are usually several 27's available around your budget, however be aware that a 35-40 year old boat in the lower price range will probably require a new engine at some stage - and all older yachts will need some money/time spent on them.
https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/category/type/Vancouver/27
Originally designed for a couple to sail from Vancouver to New Zealand, so not a broachy, thin-skinned party boat.
I've had my 1982 example for 12 years now, sailing up, down and across the Channel single-handed or two-up.
ross84
Well-Known Member
I'd buy a Vancouver in a heartbeat! They look fantastic but definitely at the upper end of my budget. I've been looking at even smaller boats recently, such as the Anderson 22, Catalina 24, as well as the usual Contessa 26's, Sadler 26's, Westerly Pagents/Centaurs too.
There's a nice looking Albin Vega 27 up for sale but the listing lacks details. There was also a Nic 32 up which has just got back from a navigation, looks well maintained but can't help feel that a lot of it will be tired out after such a cruise.
For me, it seems the hard part isn't sailing, but choosing the right sized/priced boat and then not having to empty all your funds into it thus being broke when it comes to leave. I've never really been responsible for anything in my life, not financially anyway. And through living frugally, I've had some amazing experiences.
So just owning a boat, especially if it's sitting in a city marina, is a fair amount of money (financial responsibility) and I'm definitely a cash poor time rich sort of person. Maybe I should get back on the dating apps and meet a like minded woman (with some savings!).
I've been reading Shane Acton's memoirs - amazing how he could just turn up to places and make some cash. I guess those days are long gone. With cheap flights, I can always come back to work assuming a cheap enough place to leave the boat can be found.
I was also looking at boats in the USA - you *seem* to be able to pick up some lovely looking boats, which look well maintained and in ready to sail more or less. Can you just fly over and by a boat as a non-US citizen I wonder?
Just some thoughts
There's a nice looking Albin Vega 27 up for sale but the listing lacks details. There was also a Nic 32 up which has just got back from a navigation, looks well maintained but can't help feel that a lot of it will be tired out after such a cruise.
For me, it seems the hard part isn't sailing, but choosing the right sized/priced boat and then not having to empty all your funds into it thus being broke when it comes to leave. I've never really been responsible for anything in my life, not financially anyway. And through living frugally, I've had some amazing experiences.
So just owning a boat, especially if it's sitting in a city marina, is a fair amount of money (financial responsibility) and I'm definitely a cash poor time rich sort of person. Maybe I should get back on the dating apps and meet a like minded woman (with some savings!).
I've been reading Shane Acton's memoirs - amazing how he could just turn up to places and make some cash. I guess those days are long gone. With cheap flights, I can always come back to work assuming a cheap enough place to leave the boat can be found.
I was also looking at boats in the USA - you *seem* to be able to pick up some lovely looking boats, which look well maintained and in ready to sail more or less. Can you just fly over and by a boat as a non-US citizen I wonder?
Just some thoughts
ross84
Well-Known Member
Hi there,
Yes interestingly, there is one in Canada going for 1.5x less than they seem to go for here in the UK! My impression is that over that side of the pond, small boats seem to be far less favoured than they are here. Otherwise, average price seems to be about 20k. Lovely boats though and perfect for what I want I guess.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Buy a well looked after, popular boat, well within your budget and just get on with it. :encouragement: - In your price range you will be unlikely to find a boat that needs nothing doing to it - but buy a fully functioning boat if you can. Sailing and upgrading in parallel is much more fun than years of renovation before you even hit the water IMO.
Buy something popular and in reasonable condition so you can move it on if it doesn't work out - depending where you keep it, it will generate permanent storage costs so if you're planning a "project" get the storage sorted out (as cheap as possible) before you buy the boat. Nothing worse than sinking money into storage costs leaving little for repairs and renovation.
If you are good with your hands and practical enough to cope with electrics, engines, glass fibre and sewing then the rest is just back-breaking work - sanding, scraping, fiberglassing and painting not to mention contorting yourself into all the inaccessible places on the boat and then dropping important screws, bolts, tools and parts into even more inaccessible places.
You can run a 27ft boat on a shoestring if you have enough time to do everything yourself, as a measure, my 20 year old 36 footer costs approx €700 a month but €400 of that is marina fees in the Med. I do most stuff myself but pay for anti-fouling and engine service because anti-fouling is a god awful job and the engine is still under manufacturers warranty.
Expect big bills if you have to replace anything major. My re-power cost around €7-8K if I remember rightly - New Volvo Penta engine and saildrive (D1-30) - and a complete set of new sails (with asymetric) cost about 5K.
Have fun
Buy something popular and in reasonable condition so you can move it on if it doesn't work out - depending where you keep it, it will generate permanent storage costs so if you're planning a "project" get the storage sorted out (as cheap as possible) before you buy the boat. Nothing worse than sinking money into storage costs leaving little for repairs and renovation.
If you are good with your hands and practical enough to cope with electrics, engines, glass fibre and sewing then the rest is just back-breaking work - sanding, scraping, fiberglassing and painting not to mention contorting yourself into all the inaccessible places on the boat and then dropping important screws, bolts, tools and parts into even more inaccessible places.
You can run a 27ft boat on a shoestring if you have enough time to do everything yourself, as a measure, my 20 year old 36 footer costs approx €700 a month but €400 of that is marina fees in the Med. I do most stuff myself but pay for anti-fouling and engine service because anti-fouling is a god awful job and the engine is still under manufacturers warranty.
Expect big bills if you have to replace anything major. My re-power cost around €7-8K if I remember rightly - New Volvo Penta engine and saildrive (D1-30) - and a complete set of new sails (with asymetric) cost about 5K.
Have fun
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
The creeks and boatyards are cluttered up by half derelict boats and sometimes their despairing or half derelict owners. Boats are expensive compared to cars etc. If a car breaks down you get out and walk but if a boat sinks or becomes unmanageable you are up sh+t creek. So buying a boat you cant maintain is unwise. Do you buy a boat with higher spec and hope nothing goes wrong - a pious hope unlikely to be fully realised. Or do you buy a cheaper boat to give yourself a cash reserve? Obviously if you can earn money at need its different, but boats like horses need continual attention.
Cheap places to leave boats long term are rare. Anchorages can be cheap but then you need somewhere or someone to leave dinghy with or you likely wont find it when you return. And if you leave a boat on a remote anchorage or dried out in a remote creek who will attend it if anything goes wrong while you are away? You will need a friendly boat watcher really.
Sorry if that sounds discouraging but better to be discouraged on land when you have time to work up a cunning solution, that scuppered half way round the world.
Cheap places to leave boats long term are rare. Anchorages can be cheap but then you need somewhere or someone to leave dinghy with or you likely wont find it when you return. And if you leave a boat on a remote anchorage or dried out in a remote creek who will attend it if anything goes wrong while you are away? You will need a friendly boat watcher really.
Sorry if that sounds discouraging but better to be discouraged on land when you have time to work up a cunning solution, that scuppered half way round the world.
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V1701
Well-Known Member
Further to my previous reply, I recently went through a similar process to what you’re doing, i.e. looking to find a boat that would cost as little as possible but would be big enough to spend time living on & take me pretty much wherever I want to go. My essential criteria were replacement engine – a lot of the engines on older boats are on their last legs & have prohibitively expensive spares if they are even available at all. Also essential were recent sails & standing rigging & a solid hull – relatively easy as the older fibreglass boats were all heavily built anyway. I wouldn’t even entertain an older steel hull, way too much work to maintain, I did have a ferrocement hulled boat once & would possibly have one again, they’re cheap but it’s difficult to be certain of the condition of the hull and how long it’s likely to last. I also wanted a long keel boat because they’re more directionally stable & a bit more forgiving to sail, i.e. if you leave the tiller for half a minute all hell doesn’t break loose!
Nice to haves were replacement bunk cushions – a lot of the old boats have knackered plastic covered cushions that are horrendous, these are expensive to replace but you can DIY for not too much money. Also essential if you’re single-handed are an automatic means means of steering, so a tiller pilot and/or windvane self steering are essential really for a single hander doing anything more than pottering around for a few hours. Tiller pilots are notoriously unreliable because they are susceptible to water ingress so a spare one of these is often carried. They’re £4/500 new. Windvane steering gear is expensive (£1500+ new, second hand units occasionally come up on ebay) but brilliant – reliably steers for days on end once set up properly & you know what you’re doing with it, uses no power and is usually repairable if damaged.
What I ended up with after a long search with much travelling around the country to see lots of boats is a 1969 Bowman 26, an older long keel design. She has a 6 year old Beta engine with just over 300 hours, standing rigging & seacocks were done at the same time as the engine was replaced. Sails are in really good condition & I’ve a mainsail, large genoa, smaller working jib & spinnaker, all good condition. She has a tiller pilot which will need replacing soon but big bonus was windvane self steering which I’m in the process of refurbishing & remounting. Bunk cushions also replaced at some point & are fine. I had to do a small fibreglass repair to the bottom of the keel, have made some lazy jacks & done a bit of tidying up of the interior & exterior (mainly just painting). Some of the deck fittings could do with removing & refitting so I’ll do those at some point.
My plan is to take a year off work soon & see where she takes me, I’m not going to say exactly what I paid for her, let’s just say well under a five figure sum of money & she doesn’t need any big ticket items unless you count a new tiller pilot for when the existing one dies. So it can be done on a budget but you do have to put the miles in & spend time looking at lots of boats. You’re not going to be cruising the world in luxury & comfort – there will for sure be times when it’s miserable & uncomfortable but IMHO they only make you appreciate the good times more. If you’re interested there are a growing number of vids on my Youtube channel linked to below & good luck with your plan…
Nice to haves were replacement bunk cushions – a lot of the old boats have knackered plastic covered cushions that are horrendous, these are expensive to replace but you can DIY for not too much money. Also essential if you’re single-handed are an automatic means means of steering, so a tiller pilot and/or windvane self steering are essential really for a single hander doing anything more than pottering around for a few hours. Tiller pilots are notoriously unreliable because they are susceptible to water ingress so a spare one of these is often carried. They’re £4/500 new. Windvane steering gear is expensive (£1500+ new, second hand units occasionally come up on ebay) but brilliant – reliably steers for days on end once set up properly & you know what you’re doing with it, uses no power and is usually repairable if damaged.
What I ended up with after a long search with much travelling around the country to see lots of boats is a 1969 Bowman 26, an older long keel design. She has a 6 year old Beta engine with just over 300 hours, standing rigging & seacocks were done at the same time as the engine was replaced. Sails are in really good condition & I’ve a mainsail, large genoa, smaller working jib & spinnaker, all good condition. She has a tiller pilot which will need replacing soon but big bonus was windvane self steering which I’m in the process of refurbishing & remounting. Bunk cushions also replaced at some point & are fine. I had to do a small fibreglass repair to the bottom of the keel, have made some lazy jacks & done a bit of tidying up of the interior & exterior (mainly just painting). Some of the deck fittings could do with removing & refitting so I’ll do those at some point.
My plan is to take a year off work soon & see where she takes me, I’m not going to say exactly what I paid for her, let’s just say well under a five figure sum of money & she doesn’t need any big ticket items unless you count a new tiller pilot for when the existing one dies. So it can be done on a budget but you do have to put the miles in & spend time looking at lots of boats. You’re not going to be cruising the world in luxury & comfort – there will for sure be times when it’s miserable & uncomfortable but IMHO they only make you appreciate the good times more. If you’re interested there are a growing number of vids on my Youtube channel linked to below & good luck with your plan…
Yellow Ballad
Well-Known Member
I would certainly agree with this, but i'm bias...
Check them out, very capable boats and MagicalArmchair on this forum is selling a very very nice one in your budget!
ross84
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the suggestion.
They look like they could be a good option for me. There's one for sale in Wales, which isn't too far. They want 6k but it needs tidying up and the engine is getting on a bit.
https://wales.boatshed.com/bowman_26-boat-266513.html
I think your boat is still listed online unless it's exact same model and name of boat. You got a good deal it seems!
They look like they could be a good option for me. There's one for sale in Wales, which isn't too far. They want 6k but it needs tidying up and the engine is getting on a bit.
https://wales.boatshed.com/bowman_26-boat-266513.html
I think your boat is still listed online unless it's exact same model and name of boat. You got a good deal it seems!
Babylon
Well-Known Member
That looks well alright, especially for the price. I haven't logged on to see all the photos (stupid BoatShed trying to harvest emails!) but it'll get you going and give you heaps of primary experience. With care and understanding a late 80s engine might well last a few years more - and give you more experience still! Once you've got some sea miles under your keel, you can then decide whether to invest more time and especially real money in bringing her up to snuff, or move her on and buy a different type or size of yacht.
NotBirdseye
Well-Known Member
Give it a fake email, it doesn't care XD.
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Thx. Fake email reveals a boat that looks only superficially manky (i.e. not properly cared for in the last couple of years or so) and so should scrub up pretty quickly with human muscle rather than too many readies.
Anything needing overhaul will reveal itself quickly and give the OP much primary experience in the usual myriad of boat systems. A can of deck paint will easily brighten the superstructure.
With the long keel, rudder hinge at that traditional angle and the small aperture for the prop, she won't go astern with any predicability of direction whatsoever. But the OP can learn to warp her around pontoons and docks, and once he's sussed which way the prop kicks in astern he can jam the tiller over hard and by working the throttle forward and astern he can practically turn on a sixpence.
Offer an initial £3,750 subject to survey, including running the engine (if ashore then just plum in a hose), and maybe get a local boat electrician to give the electrics a quick once over.
Anything needing overhaul will reveal itself quickly and give the OP much primary experience in the usual myriad of boat systems. A can of deck paint will easily brighten the superstructure.
With the long keel, rudder hinge at that traditional angle and the small aperture for the prop, she won't go astern with any predicability of direction whatsoever. But the OP can learn to warp her around pontoons and docks, and once he's sussed which way the prop kicks in astern he can jam the tiller over hard and by working the throttle forward and astern he can practically turn on a sixpence.
Offer an initial £3,750 subject to survey, including running the engine (if ashore then just plum in a hose), and maybe get a local boat electrician to give the electrics a quick once over.
eddystone
Well-Known Member
Perfect price for the buyer! I think I spent nearly that much on mine last year alone. Just goes to show the importance of buying one with a newish engine. One of the big differences between 26ft and 32ft is headroom
V1701
Well-Known Member
The baby Bowman isn't that bad actually, but then I had an Albin Vega for a couple of years...
V1701
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why but Sadler 32s & 34s have seemed like very good value for a few years now...
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Having thought about it a bit more (especially in light of Ross' other current thread about boat asking prices), my suggestion of opening at £3,750 is probably far too low. Something more serious, i.e. within 20-25% of the asking price of just under £6k, would be more encouraging for the vendor to continue negotiations....
scruff
Well-Known Member
When reviewing boats to ascertain their value to you, I'd start off by making a spreadsheet. List every item of "Key" equipment you want to be up to scratch before you cast off to go transatlantic.
For instance;
Running rigging <5 years old,
Main Sail <5 years old,
Foresail <5 years old,
Second foresail,
Storm jib,
Drogue,
Standing rigging <7years old,
Electronic Autohelm,
Windvane self steering and so on.
Then spend a little time pricing all these items up by trawling the various online chandelry.
With a little formatting with tick boxes and formula's you will be able to quickly ascertain a high level upgrade cost for each boat you look at. With this you can then compare the "value" to you for each and every boat you look at. It's also easy enough to keep a copy of this spreadsheet, with online info from advert, correspondence with seller/broker and any photo's you take in person altogether in one note.
For instance;
Running rigging <5 years old,
Main Sail <5 years old,
Foresail <5 years old,
Second foresail,
Storm jib,
Drogue,
Standing rigging <7years old,
Electronic Autohelm,
Windvane self steering and so on.
Then spend a little time pricing all these items up by trawling the various online chandelry.
With a little formatting with tick boxes and formula's you will be able to quickly ascertain a high level upgrade cost for each boat you look at. With this you can then compare the "value" to you for each and every boat you look at. It's also easy enough to keep a copy of this spreadsheet, with online info from advert, correspondence with seller/broker and any photo's you take in person altogether in one note.
eddystone
Well-Known Member
But also some things you can't easily see. If going transatlantic (which I'm not!) I'd want to check the body of the rudder is sound, replace bearings (which on a Sadler 32 involves positioning with the transom overhanging a drop or else dig a big hole) the body of the tiller and the hinge - and take a spare tiller. Also budget to beef up chainplates and baby stay mounting. People generally don't do these things so assume you'll have to pay for all that.