Bureacracy?
- Thread starter Joe_Cole
- Start date
sailorman
Well-Known Member
yes but just think of the index-linked pension /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Joe_Cole
Well-Known Member
Harumphhh!
Actually I was thinking of the Management, secretarial, training, Health & Safety, Admin, Human resources, IT, etc etc support teams. I'll bet that in total there are at least 22 people tied up on this.
All, as you say, index linked! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Actually I was thinking of the Management, secretarial, training, Health & Safety, Admin, Human resources, IT, etc etc support teams. I'll bet that in total there are at least 22 people tied up on this.
All, as you say, index linked! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
graham
Well-Known Member
it may be expensive but I think the MAIB provides a good service.
The MAIB reports have reports on accidents on ships,fishing vessels and pleasure craft.
the flavour is not one of a government inspector on his high horse but one of a fellow seafarer trying to learn from someone elses hard earned experience.
I think that the reports should be more readilly available in marinas yachtcubs etc as not many people are likely to subscribe to them.
The MAIB reports have reports on accidents on ships,fishing vessels and pleasure craft.
the flavour is not one of a government inspector on his high horse but one of a fellow seafarer trying to learn from someone elses hard earned experience.
I think that the reports should be more readilly available in marinas yachtcubs etc as not many people are likely to subscribe to them.
shamrock
Well-Known Member
Funny, I was looking at that site last night too. I was reading the safety digests and thinking what an excellent piece of work they are - very serious subjects dealt with and presented in a professional but very accessible way.
Given that these digests tragically include about 20 deaths each year, I actually think the investment in thorough investigations is well worth it. It's important to give these teams the time not just to investigate properly, but to draw out the lessons and communicate those to the rest of us.
I think I'm a conscientious skipper, but reading MAIB reports reminds me of how thin the line can be between fun and tragedy, and that's good for me to remember.
Still wouldn't mind the nice pension though.....
Given that these digests tragically include about 20 deaths each year, I actually think the investment in thorough investigations is well worth it. It's important to give these teams the time not just to investigate properly, but to draw out the lessons and communicate those to the rest of us.
I think I'm a conscientious skipper, but reading MAIB reports reminds me of how thin the line can be between fun and tragedy, and that's good for me to remember.
Still wouldn't mind the nice pension though.....
Peppermint
Well-Known Member
Re: You think thats heavy
It appears a 6 car, fatal, accident has taken place in Hant's in the last day or two. The Hants. plods are proud enough to tell the Beeb that 30 specially trained officers are working to find it's cause.
Is there a sliding scale going from, old lady trips in street, to coach crash with dead folks, that decides how many people are need to investigate? When I was a boy road engineer I did a project that meant visiting serious road accidents. In them days one of the traffic officers did a report on the likely cause, the road got cleared up and everybody, barring the victims, went home.
I hear tales now of helicopter photography of the site, fingertip searches and 1000's of drivers being interviewed.
So where's the end product of all this investigation? At least MAIB and the CAA guys publish reports we can learn from.
It appears a 6 car, fatal, accident has taken place in Hant's in the last day or two. The Hants. plods are proud enough to tell the Beeb that 30 specially trained officers are working to find it's cause.
Is there a sliding scale going from, old lady trips in street, to coach crash with dead folks, that decides how many people are need to investigate? When I was a boy road engineer I did a project that meant visiting serious road accidents. In them days one of the traffic officers did a report on the likely cause, the road got cleared up and everybody, barring the victims, went home.
I hear tales now of helicopter photography of the site, fingertip searches and 1000's of drivers being interviewed.
So where's the end product of all this investigation? At least MAIB and the CAA guys publish reports we can learn from.
Mirelle
N/A
And furthermore...
I am in a position to tell you that the MCA staff love not the MAIB staff, 'cos the latter get paid a lot more, and have been known to disagree on technical issues.
Still, since I have friends in both camps, I had better be careful.
I am in a position to tell you that the MCA staff love not the MAIB staff, 'cos the latter get paid a lot more, and have been known to disagree on technical issues.
Still, since I have friends in both camps, I had better be careful.
bilbobaggins
N/A
The MAIB philosophy of seeking to learn from incidents and promulgate any 'lessons', for everyone's future benefit, is borrowed from aviation and medicine, where significant contributions have been made over the years.
The MAIB 'Digest' is an excellent ( free ) publication, and I've used reprints of selected articles in my RYA evening classes, over the past 5 years. My students have been encouraged to explore the MAIB website, as part of their 'continuing development', and 2 or 3 college and university libraries have been put on the mailing list.
It's probably a mis-quote, but "It's smart to learn from your experience, but smarter to learn from someone else's!"
The MAIB 'Digest' is an excellent ( free ) publication, and I've used reprints of selected articles in my RYA evening classes, over the past 5 years. My students have been encouraged to explore the MAIB website, as part of their 'continuing development', and 2 or 3 college and university libraries have been put on the mailing list.
It's probably a mis-quote, but "It's smart to learn from your experience, but smarter to learn from someone else's!"
AlexL
Well-Known Member
before everyone starts flag waving for the MAIB, take a look at the difference in quality and quantity of output of the AAIB - monthly bulletins, for EVERY incident and accident, from big (mercifully rare) commercial accidents, to people loosing a nosewheel on a Cessna 150. Probably 20-30+ incidents and accidents every month.
Whilst the MAIB and AAIB have similar remits - i.e to learn rather than apportion blame, the MAIB In my view are no use unless every incident is investigated, rather than cherry picking. And whilst the AAIB and CAA investigate every near miss (called AIRPROX) and regularly review airspace and technical requirements as a result the MAIB seem to have their head in the sand with regard to collisions and near collisions.
And as for Plod with road accidents - well they need something to pretend to do rather than solving crimes. I spend 45 mins stationary on the A13 this morning about 200 yds behind a rather nasty accident. The 3 fire engines to deal with the casualty and the overturned car and associated fuel spillage I can understand, ditto the ambulance - but the 7 (yes seven) Police cars! to direct traffic? no the road was physically blocked? to allieviate the traffic problem on the roundabout 1/4 mile behind me - nope all rubber necking the accident. And what will they say after any investigation anyway? "It was speeding" (essex police default response) please can we use more speed cameras.
Whilst the MAIB and AAIB have similar remits - i.e to learn rather than apportion blame, the MAIB In my view are no use unless every incident is investigated, rather than cherry picking. And whilst the AAIB and CAA investigate every near miss (called AIRPROX) and regularly review airspace and technical requirements as a result the MAIB seem to have their head in the sand with regard to collisions and near collisions.
And as for Plod with road accidents - well they need something to pretend to do rather than solving crimes. I spend 45 mins stationary on the A13 this morning about 200 yds behind a rather nasty accident. The 3 fire engines to deal with the casualty and the overturned car and associated fuel spillage I can understand, ditto the ambulance - but the 7 (yes seven) Police cars! to direct traffic? no the road was physically blocked? to allieviate the traffic problem on the roundabout 1/4 mile behind me - nope all rubber necking the accident. And what will they say after any investigation anyway? "It was speeding" (essex police default response) please can we use more speed cameras.
michael_99
Well-Known Member
Accidents are just that. If we havn't learned by now, we never will. Time and again we are being told to slow down, but someone never will.Investigators will never find anything which will stop things from happening. And why waste time with investigators when lawers know it all anyway, they can always tell you after something has happend, "You should have known that" All we need it for lawers to draw up a list with everything there can go wrong, cause they will find them. And I mean EVERYTHING.
Joe_Cole
Well-Known Member
Re: Bureaucracy?
Having initially posted about bureaucracy I now have to disagree with you. The majority of accidents don't "just happen", they are caused by something which invariably turns out to be human error. Poor navigation, not keeping a lookout, poor maintenance, inexperience, drink, ignoring Col Regs, etc etc etc.
I would argue that most accidents could be prevented.
Perversely, I agree with the need for the work which MAIB carries out and, as others have said, the reports which they produce are, in some ways, excellent. Arguably though they sometimes go into too much detail and are too thorough; some of the minor accidents do not justify the amount of detail which is produced.
What I was taking issue with is not the work, but the efficiency with which it is carried out. On the basis of their workload so far this year the investigators are looking into less than 2.7 incidents per annum. Bearing in mind that most incidents are minor it's an appalling "output" for a team of highly qualified people. If the police investigated road accidents at this speed...........
Having initially posted about bureaucracy I now have to disagree with you. The majority of accidents don't "just happen", they are caused by something which invariably turns out to be human error. Poor navigation, not keeping a lookout, poor maintenance, inexperience, drink, ignoring Col Regs, etc etc etc.
I would argue that most accidents could be prevented.
Perversely, I agree with the need for the work which MAIB carries out and, as others have said, the reports which they produce are, in some ways, excellent. Arguably though they sometimes go into too much detail and are too thorough; some of the minor accidents do not justify the amount of detail which is produced.
What I was taking issue with is not the work, but the efficiency with which it is carried out. On the basis of their workload so far this year the investigators are looking into less than 2.7 incidents per annum. Bearing in mind that most incidents are minor it's an appalling "output" for a team of highly qualified people. If the police investigated road accidents at this speed...........
AlexL
Well-Known Member
Re: Bureaucracy?
[ QUOTE ]
What I was taking issue with is not the work, but the efficiency with which it is carried out. On the basis of their workload so far this year the investigators are looking into less than 2.7 incidents per annum. Bearing in mind that most incidents are minor it's an appalling "output" for a team of highly qualified people. If the police investigated road accidents at this speed...........
[/ QUOTE ]
And that was my point too - look at this months AAIB bulletin - no less than 30 incidents - all with detailed analysis. a serious difference in output!
[ QUOTE ]
What I was taking issue with is not the work, but the efficiency with which it is carried out. On the basis of their workload so far this year the investigators are looking into less than 2.7 incidents per annum. Bearing in mind that most incidents are minor it's an appalling "output" for a team of highly qualified people. If the police investigated road accidents at this speed...........
[/ QUOTE ]
And that was my point too - look at this months AAIB bulletin - no less than 30 incidents - all with detailed analysis. a serious difference in output!
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Re: Bureaucracy?
If you look round where you work most people wonder what other people do to fill their time and the others think that about you.
You never know what any job entails until you try to do it yourself.
I cannot comment on the MAIB's productivity but think their reports some of the best summations of difficult and often tragic situations I have ever read. The way they present the circumstances and the errors made in a non-patronising way and with an understanding of how easy it was to initially make the error makes them easy reading.
As one who always wants to learn of others mistakes to enable me to better keep my own to a minimum -long may the reports/digests continue.
If you look round where you work most people wonder what other people do to fill their time and the others think that about you.
You never know what any job entails until you try to do it yourself.
I cannot comment on the MAIB's productivity but think their reports some of the best summations of difficult and often tragic situations I have ever read. The way they present the circumstances and the errors made in a non-patronising way and with an understanding of how easy it was to initially make the error makes them easy reading.
As one who always wants to learn of others mistakes to enable me to better keep my own to a minimum -long may the reports/digests continue.
Heckler
Well-Known Member
good old tone and his buddies, beaurocracy and centralisation.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
On the figures you present - no, they dont look overworked. But I still think they perform a very useful function. Which is more than can be said for most govt employees IMHO.
michael_99
Well-Known Member
Learning by other peoples mistake is to a certain point wishfull thinking, how long is your list of other peoples mistakes, starting in the home , the car, the workshop, the boat, the list is endless, we only have the capacity to remember a few which have come close to our own activity. If I were to learn from the biggest of other peoples mistake, I would never drive a car again. I will always try to do my best, but as we know, something can always go unseen.( Only a lawer knows it all. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
Joe_Cole
Well-Known Member
Re: Bureaucracy?
I used to think the same as you but the company I worked for was taken over by Shell. Shell was obsessed by safety and we were given all sorts of targets, training, systems etc to reduce accidents. When it started we didn't even know how many accidents we had each year.
After a year accidents were reduced. Then targets were tightened up; we said it couldn't be done; but we did it.
It took about three years before we really accepted it but we learnt that you can manage accident rates. Like most things in business though it needs constant vigilance. I learnt a lot from that experience, and now it affects my work, my home and my boating.
My point, as I said to you earlier is that accidents don't just happen, they are caused. With the right outlook, you can reduce them.
For the record, my gripe with the MAIB was about their efficiency, not the job they are tasked with.
I used to think the same as you but the company I worked for was taken over by Shell. Shell was obsessed by safety and we were given all sorts of targets, training, systems etc to reduce accidents. When it started we didn't even know how many accidents we had each year.
After a year accidents were reduced. Then targets were tightened up; we said it couldn't be done; but we did it.
It took about three years before we really accepted it but we learnt that you can manage accident rates. Like most things in business though it needs constant vigilance. I learnt a lot from that experience, and now it affects my work, my home and my boating.
My point, as I said to you earlier is that accidents don't just happen, they are caused. With the right outlook, you can reduce them.
For the record, my gripe with the MAIB was about their efficiency, not the job they are tasked with.
michael_99
Well-Known Member
Re: Bureaucracy?
Reduce them, yes, stop them all together, no.Humans at work, so to speak.I think that the cause of most serious accidents is sheer stupidity, and unfortunatley, no matter how much we educate people, again, some people will never learn.
There is always the element of"I think I can ger away with that", and have many times.
Reduce them, yes, stop them all together, no.Humans at work, so to speak.I think that the cause of most serious accidents is sheer stupidity, and unfortunatley, no matter how much we educate people, again, some people will never learn.
There is always the element of"I think I can ger away with that", and have many times.
