Buoy identification - for the experts

Mark-1

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(possibly simply by forgetting the direction of buoyage in the channel).

Scenery and wildlife of that quality is a real disincentive to looking where you're going. Even the Ferries look stunning. Easier to concentrate on Nav down here in the dismal South.
 

Baltika_no_9

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It's doesn't really matter but plenty of other places use a Cardinal in exactly that situation.

Doesn't really matter because the chart makes it clear what's going on but I'd personally prefer a cardinal there. Would feel a bit odd leaving a flashing green to port when going rock dodging into that anchorage.
But if you leave that buoy to port then it means you have taken the non-preferred channel so yes it would be odd and you'd be rock hopping.

Easier to see if you look at a larger section of the chart but an entry into that harbour from roughly a SE direction initially via a channel marked with lateral buoys leads you to that preferred mark. You can either take the preferred channel to port and keep the green flashing light to your starboard side leaving the island to starboard that is the preferred channel. It is there to indicate which side of the island is preferred.

To honour the preferred channel you treat it as a normal lateral mark. If it is GRG and flashing green (if lit) then leave it to starboard.

As a matter of interest what sort of cardinal would you like to see there?
 

Mark-1

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I would not be so sure about the "so it doesn't really matter." comment :unsure:

Fair point, I suppose clearer is always better but it's fairly easy to work out what they intend from the chart.

If I was going to that anchorage in the chartlet above without a chart I'd leave the GRG close to Starboard because it wouldn't occured to me it was demarking the channel East to the anchorage from the channel West up the Loch. As it happens I'd get away with that. Consulting the chart clears it up pretty quickly so no harm done and there's no way anyone would go on there without a chart.
 

capnsensible

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I've only ever seen a preferred channel marker where the reason for the preferred channel was rudimentary traffic management. It's clearly not (typically) based on size of vessel or there would be preferred channel markers all over busy places with shipping and small boats like the Solent.

If there's a wrong channel you'd jist use a red/green, that's what they're for.

Having said all that all any nav mark *really* does is mark a pin point on the chart so it doesn't really matter.
There's loads all around the world. There's more to life than just Lake Solent and are clearly in use where harbour authorities require them.

It's better for navigators to understand how they are positioned rather than argue about something that clearly is in widespread use.,
 

Mark-1

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But if you leave that buoy to port then it means you have taken the non-preferred channel so yes it would be odd and you'd be rock hopping.

Easier to see if you look at a larger section of the chart but an entry into that harbour from roughly a SE direction initially via a channel marked with lateral buoys leads you to that preferred mark. You can either take the preferred channel to port and keep the green flashing light to your starboard side leaving the island to starboard that is the preferred channel. It is there to indicate which side of the island is preferred.

To honour the preferred channel you treat it as a normal lateral mark. If it is GRG and flashing green (if lit) then leave it to starboard.

As a matter of interest what sort of cardinal would you like to see there?

If you left the bouy to port you'd be going to the anchorage, unless someone has some local knowledge to correct me you wouldn't go east of the Island to go West.

I'd want a Sly Cardinal there. Much clearer, but I don't really care - it's clear enough from the full chart what they have in mind.
 
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Supertramp

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If you left the bouy to port you'd be going to the anchorage, unless someone has some local knowledge to correct me you wouldn't go east of the Island to go West.

I'd want a Sly Cardinal there. Much clearer.
The mark is at a crossroads of ship lanes at the entrance to Carlingford. One is the route in to Warrenpoint, the other is the route of the car ferry across the entrance to the pier at Greencastle. It is confined waters with the channels buoyed. The GRG is something like the 18th green buoy on the way in. All straightforward really though 5 knts of tide makes it more exciting and worth not straying off piste.
 

SaltyC

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In the dim and very distant past, I am sure there used to be one to the East of Brownsea Island so leisure vessels could keep out of the main channel and cross channel ferries or head towards Salterns marina.
Having checked Navionics these have now been replaced by cardinals - a change in policy or found to be too confusing for Lake (Solent) sailors??
 

Baltika_no_9

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If you left the bouy to port you'd be going to the anchorage, unless someone has some local knowledge to correct me you wouldn't go east of the Island to go West.
I'd agree with you in most circumstances but in adverse weather conditions or in the case of someone who is not comfortable or familiar with the area then there are occasions when for safety's sake a longer west-about approach to the anchorage may be favoured to avoid the obvious hazards of the more direct route.
 

Mark-1

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I'd agree with you in most circumstances but in adverse weather conditions or in the case of someone who is not comfortable or familiar with the area then there are occasions when for safety's sake a longer west-about approach to the anchorage may be favoured to avoid the obvious hazards of the more direct route.

Yeah, maybe to get out of the tide rather than weather, keeps you over to the North which looks better.

Mind you, if you range out far enough the preferred Chanel marker makes much more sense and my suggested S cardinal makes little sense. (Now I think a Green would make much more sense - I'm fickle.)

Maybe I'm just dull but I'm finding this really interesting.
 
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Laser310

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Well firstly if someone's not familiar they'll have a chart out.

Secondly, unless I'm missing something it's possible to go through either channel, it's just one is preferred. If there was a wrong channel they'd surely stick a red or green there.

Neeves is still alive and I've never heard of anyone else coming a cropper over a preferred channel mark.

as i think others have mentioned, i have seen them where the two channels do not end up at the same place.

in this case, the "preferred" side indicates the larger of the two harbours
 

Mark-1

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as i think others have mentioned, i have seen them where the two channels do not end up at the same place.

in this case, the "preferred" side indicates the larger of the two harbour

Yup, my point was there isn't a "wrong" side of a preferred channel mark. By definition there are two perfectly valid options depending on circumstances.

Mind you there isn't really a "wrong" side of any mark IMHO. Unless there are bylaws or similar it usually depends on circumstances. Although we all know what we mean when we say it. It's pretty rare I *have* to go the 'correct' side of a mark, it's just a known point on a chart. (The classic example is Isolated danger and safe water marks - as long as I don't hit the mark itself I can usually treat them the same! 😁)

...and yes I agree the two channels don't need to end up in the same place and I'd agree the channel
east of Green Island is one of those cases although you could argue it the other way and some people have.

EDIT: I have no idea why I wrote that middle paragraph stating the bleeding obvious. Once I started I couldn't stop. 😁
 
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Daydream believer

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Mind you there isn't really a "wrong" side of any mark IMHO. Unless there are bylaws or similar it usually depends on circumstances. Although we all know what we mean when we say it. It's pretty rare I *have* to go the 'correct' side of a mark, it's just a known point on a chart. (The classic example is Isolated danger and safe water marks - as long as I don't hit the mark itself I can usually treat them the same! 😁)
Well go the wrong side of the IALA mark inside the harbour at Ardglass & you will soon know the fault in that statement when you stop dead. I can tell you that one for certain & one only has to be 2 ft the wrong side.

I can also relate going into Benodet in a really strong rain/wind squall up the chuff. It was so strong that vis was down to just a few boat length & the rain was stinging the eyes of my son & myself. There was no way we could get a chart on deck & having been caught by surprise we were not actually sure of the route into the river. We looked for a stbd hand pillar, which we found & went fairly close- couple of boat lengths. To keep it in sight as long as possible, whilst we tried to guess some sort of bearing on the compass for the way in.
When I left it was low tide, not high tide as when we had arrived.
I was shocked to see how far up on the rocks the mark was & realised that I must have just missed them by a couple of feet. The French do not always put the mark on the edge of a point of note.
The same goes for one of the wrecks just past Nieuport & Dunkirk. The buoy is one end of the wreck, on the sand bank, whilst the other end is out in the fairway & at low tide can be seen to be quite large & a serious contender for an accident to the unwary.
 

Mark-1

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The mark is at a crossroads of ship lanes at the entrance to Carlingford. One is the route in to Warrenpoint, the other is the route of the car ferry across the entrance to the pier at Greencastle. It is confined waters with the channels buoyed. The GRG is something like the 18th green buoy on the way in.

Thanks that totally explains what's happening. I read this but couldn't relate it to the chart. Your post plus five minutes with satellite overlay and some place names makes it all clear.
 

Mark-1

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Well go the wrong side of the IALA mark inside the harbour at Ardglass & you will soon know the fault in that statement when you stop dead. I can tell you that one for certain & one only has to be 2 ft the wrong side.

I can also relate going into Benodet in a really strong rain/wind squall up the chuff. It was so strong that vis was down to just a few boat length & the rain was stinging the eyes of my son & myself. There was no way we could get a chart on deck & having been caught by surprise we were not actually sure of the route into the river. We looked for a stbd hand pillar, which we found & went fairly close- couple of boat lengths. To keep it in sight as long as possible, whilst we tried to guess some sort of bearing on the compass for the way in.
When I left it was low tide, not high tide as when we had arrived.
I was shocked to see how far up on the rocks the mark was & realised that I must have just missed them by a couple of feet. The French do not always put the mark on the edge of a point of note.
The same goes for one of the wrecks just past Nieuport & Dunkirk. The buoy is one end of the wreck, on the sand bank, whilst the other end is out in the fairway & at low tide can be seen to be quite large & a serious contender for an accident to the unwary.

You're listing "circumstances".
 

Baltika_no_9

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I'm puzzling why two channels indicated by a preferred channel marker don't end up in the same place at some point. If that is the case then the word "preferred" is meaningless. If one channel goes to place X and the other to place Y then you take the appropriate channel. The two channels in this thread both lead to Carlingford Lough so if that is your target then it is up to you which to take, both are valid. Clearly they take different routes so if your destination is more directly reached from only one of those routes before they converge again then that's different.

I'd be happy to be shown the case where two channels marked by such a buoy do not later converge. I am not suggesting they do not exist but would welcome an example.
 

requiem

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I would expect a cardinal mark to be used around more localised and isolated hazards, such as Centissima Reef in the (IALA B) example below. Which of course doesn't have one, because as already mentioned the US tends to stick with the lateral system. Regarding the "wrong side of a buoy", I've always been taught that one should never cut a buoy unless very sure of the safety. Buoys have a swing radius after all.

Here, the main shipping channel runs E-W just below the preferred channel buoy at the bottom. This of course works well for outbound traffic, as it acts as a starboard-hand buoy for the main channel, and a port-hand buoy for the smaller Bonita Channel.

In contrast, incoming traffic gets a reversed picture which would cause confusion were it not so far north of the main channel. They'd need to refer to the chart to know to ignore it.

bonita-channel.jpg
 

capnsensible

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I'm puzzling why two channels indicated by a preferred channel marker don't end up in the same place at some point. If that is the case then the word "preferred" is meaningless. If one channel goes to place X and the other to place Y then you take the appropriate channel. The two channels in this thread both lead to Carlingford Lough so if that is your target then it is up to you which to take, both are valid. Clearly they take different routes so if your destination is more directly reached from only one of those routes before they converge again then that's different.

I'd be happy to be shown the case where two channels marked by such a buoy do not later converge. I am not suggesting they do not exist but would welcome an example.
The port of Los Marmoles, Arrecife, Lanzarote.

The container port in Algecieras, Spain.
 

Mark-1

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I'm puzzling why two channels indicated by a preferred channel marker don't end up in the same place at some point. If that is the case then the word "preferred" is meaningless. If one channel goes to place X and the other to place Y then you take the appropriate channel. The two channels in this thread both lead to Carlingford Lough so if that is your target then it is up to you which to take, both are valid. Clearly they take different routes so if your destination is more directly reached from only one of those routes before they converge again then that's different.

I'd be happy to be shown the case where two channels marked by such a buoy do not later converge. I am not suggesting they do not exist but would welcome an example.

It blew my mind too but in the case above the "preferred" channel goes to Warrenpoint and the other channel is for the ferry and crosses the preferred channel sort of at right angles and goes to Carlingford.

As another poster says it's a crossroads.

With a smaller scale chart it sort of makes sense. It gives the Warrenport vessels a nice consistent line of green lights but gives the ferry a red stripe.
 
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