Build quality modern yachts

[rotrax]

del

 

[Baggywrinkle]

It is a generational thing ...

I often sit in anchorages watching all the other boats and there is always the occasional old style "blue water" cruiser with what looks like a drilling derrick on the back which the elderly occupants gingerly crawl through to descend a fixed ladder and get into their dinghy. The sterns tend to be narrower than a modern boat, so the back end can end up a cramped mess once solar, outboard, davits and wind generator are fitted.

... and the cockpit is usually smaller and narrower, laying flat, sunbathing or entertaining more than 2 guests is not possible without getting intimately acquainted, and a trip to the loo means playing musical chairs and trying to avoid getting your feet trodden on - because the cockpit is so small, the owners can often be found up on the fore deck, sheltering from the sun under bits of flapping canvas with wind scoops on all available hatches to try and keep the poorly ventilated interior cool.

Compare that to a modern boat set up for the same thing and you have a large airy cockpit, a bimini that doesn't interfere with sailing and provides plenty of shade, a goalpost sized arch with room for solar/davits etc that you can walk under to the sea-level swim platform with swim ladder and shower ... some have a secondary fridge, a large table and seating area for entertaining or chilling out ... and they still have the space on deck too .... and hundreds of them cross oceans, with generators, water makers, washing machines, microwaves and all the other modern conveniences anyone under 50 has come to expect. The surveyor who did my boat told me he has many Australian clients who buy ex-charter boats in the Med and sail them home - if the rate of attrition was so high, why would they bother?

I spent my childhood on boats from the 60s and 70s and 80s .... I remember devouring my dads sailing magazines and marvelling at the contents of Bristows, thinking how wonderful all these "proper" yachts were. Once I could afford them myself I made a beeline for anything that appeared to have these magical qualities of strongly built, ocean going yacht - the boats my father lusted after - what a disappointment that was.

Why was I disappointed? ... because I'd been chartering things like Bav 44s, Oceanis 46, Oceanis 393, SO 43DS and numerous other AWBs. and it was an eye-opener. Going back into something from the 80s or earlier was simply like taking a step back in time ... and I kept thinking how much better the modern boats were - they were certainly fit for their intended purpose, and I didn't notice any real compromise in terms of sailing ability or comfort.

I now own an AWB .... and it's wonderful. Would I cross an ocean in her? ... wouldn't be my first choice, but she'd be fine - I'd want an AWB about 2 meters longer with more space ... a Bav 42/44, or an Oceanis 423/473 .... IMO the best AWB on the market is the HR 412

 

[RJJ]

The separation of the internal grid is exactly why I would never buy a modern yacht, nor one with a sandwich hull (search Google for Hazar 30 yacht) . I have balsa cored decks and they are bad enough.

As far as I know there is no standard way to refix the internal grid, so may be they live in the land of hope, rather than the land of hopelessness they will end up in.

Not "standard" but on some boats of that generation, the panels have been cut out of the inner matrix leaving the ribs, which are then laminated directly to the hull. Which requires furniture removal and basically raises the construction technique to what it "should" have been all along.

 

[geem]

why would I want to leave the safety and comfort of the cockpit to put a reef in when I can do the same job from the cockpit with the lines led aft?

On a modern boat with a raised and sloping cabin top you are best having your reefing lines led aft to the cockpit. Going on deck on such a boat can be dangerous. On a clear flat deck going to the mast to reef is not a problem. You can reef faster at the mast. Super simple systems with no friction compared to the turning blocks needed to get lines back to the cockpit. As a bonus you dont have a cockpit full of lines.
With regard to going on deck, do you have a storm jib or staysail? If you have one and intend to use one on said modern boat you will need to go on deck in the worst conditions. How do you deal with that scenario?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The separation of the internal grid is exactly why I would never buy a modern yacht, nor one with a sandwich hull (search Google for Hazar 30 yacht) . I have balsa cored decks and they are bad enough.

As far as I know there is no standard way to refix the internal grid, so may be they live in the land of hope, rather than the land of hopelessness they will end up in.

On older boats you get water ingress through cracked encapsulated keels that doesn't get noticed, let alone fixed, you get rotting stringers, delaminated rudders, osmosis, rotten balsa cored decks, rotting ply bulkheads, corroded chain plates, corroded electrical wiring ... the list is endless. Nothing lasts forever, not even MABs, at least not without a considerable amount of work to stop leaks and keep them in good condition.

Anyone buying a boat needs to keep that in the back of their mind, the older the boat, the more likely there is to be a very nasty surprise hiding in there somewhere - an AWB under 10 years old wont have a lot of these long-term deterioration problems - more likely to have repaired accident damage which on a young AWB is pretty easy to spot.

I want to sail, not spend thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours on repairing nasty surprises. You can get into every corner of a modern AWB - the tanks are moulded plastic, the keel, and bolts, are visible - the rudder can be dropped and bushings/bearings replaced in a day - you can trace and see all the pipework, wiring etc. Every system has excellent access. In my AWB I can see the entire inside of the hull just by lifting removable floors or opening lockers- the only section of the hull I can't access is under the wet cell used for the heads ... I can see under it, just not access it.

Just these 2 sailing blogs would put me off an old boat for life .....

Sail Life

HaveWindWillTravel.com

.... in fact, YouTube is full of dreamers buying older "blue water" boats just to spend most of their lives fixing them.

PS: A sailing friend of mine had the grid in his SunFast re-attached after a grounding ... that was a decade ago and the repair has never needed to be revisited.

 

[Concerto]

Not "standard" but on some boats of that generation, the panels have been cut out of the inner matrix leaving the ribs, which are then laminated directly to the hull. Which requires furniture removal and basically raises the construction technique to what it "should" have been all along.

That is not the quick fix anyone would dream of, that is major surgery. The boat would definitely be stronger, but as it had been "repaired", most future buyers would probably not touch it with a barge pole - even though you and I know it is now structurally better than when originally built. This would probably depress the secondhandvalue considerably. The owners should be trying to get it classified as unrepairable and get an agreed amount from their insurers. They would be better off financially.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

On older boats you get water ingress through cracked encapsulated keels that doesn't get noticed, let alone fixed, you get rotting stringers, delaminated rudders, osmosis, rotten balsa cored decks, rotting ply bulkheads, corroded chain plates, corroded electrical wiring ... the list is endless. Nothing lasts forever, not even MABs, at least not without a considerable amount of work to stop leaks and keep them in good condition.

Anyone buying a boat needs to keep that in the back of their mind, the older the boat, the more likely there is to be a very nasty surprise hiding in there somewhere - an AWB under 10 years old wont have a lot of these long-term deterioration problems - more likely to have repaired accident damage which on a young AWB is pretty easy to spot.

I want to sail, not spend thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours on repairing nasty surprises. You can get into every corner of a modern AWB - the tanks are moulded plastic, the keel, and bolts, are visible - the rudder can be dropped and bushings/bearings replaced in a day - you can trace and see all the pipework, wiring etc. Every system has excellent access. In my AWB I can see the entire inside of the hull just by lifting removable floors or opening lockers- the only section of the hull I can't access is under the wet cell used for the heads ... I can see under it, just not access it.

Just these 2 sailing blogs would put me off an old boat for life .....

Sail Life

HaveWindWillTravel.com

.... in fact, YouTube is full of dreamers buying older "blue water" boats just to spend most of their lives fixing them.

PS: A sailing friend of mine had the grid in his SunFast re-attached after a grounding ... that was a decade ago and the repair has never needed to be revisited.

Sail life is a perpetual DIY vlog. He did the same with his previous boat and sold it after a short cruise. Frankly i don't see the merit in watching amateurs bodge boats back to life and claim some sort of authority whilst doing so. I stopped watching him and others like him long ago.

As for MABs being difficult to work on mine's 50 years old and a doddle i've even built a CAD from the original drawings corrected by the dimensions of my boat with all system except the engine.(I couldn't find a CAD of a 2QM15). See my avatar.

That is not the quick fix anyone would dream of, that is major surgery. The boat would definitely be stronger, but as it had been "repaired", most future buyers would probably not touch it with a barge pole - even though you and I know it is now structurally better than when originally built. This would probably depress the secondhandvalue considerably. The owners should be trying to get it classified as unrepairable and get an agreed amount from their insurers. They would be better off financially.

The couple in question have just bought it at auction!!!!!

 

[ip485]

Reading the last few boats, I think there is a tendency to confuse quality with age - or in other words a boat needs to be old than well built.

I believe this is wrong.

Although they may be fewer there are still builders around that produce modern designs with exceptional quality - of course at a price.

Island Packet may not be the best example, because I accept the long keel isnt everyones cup of tea, but the build techniques are up to date, and the quality is excceptional. For example, there is nothing "old" about a hull that isnt balsa or foam cored, rather it is a more expensive construction technique that will result in the long term ins a stiffer and more resileint build. Yes, it will add a little to the wieght, but with a modern design not to an extent that will effect performance.

Better examples maybe HB, Nautor, Discovery and of course Oyster. They all make yachts that will go around the world and not show they have. Beneteau will equally make a yacht that will go round the world but it will show it has. For me, that is the difference.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Reading the last few boats, I think there is a tendency to confuse quality with age - or in other words a boat needs to be old than well built.

I believe this is wrong.

Although they may be fewer there are still builders around that produce modern designs with exceptional quality - of course at a price.

Island Packet may not be the best example, because I accept the long keel isnt everyones cup of tea, but the build techniques are up to date, and the quality is excceptional. For example, there is nothing "old" about a hull that isnt balsa or foam cored, rather it is a more expensive construction technique that will result in the long term ins a stiffer and more resileint build. Yes, it will add a little to the wieght, but with a modern design not to an extent that will effect performance.

Better examples maybe HB, Nautor, Discovery and of course Oyster. They all make yachts that will go around the world and not show they have. Beneteau will equally make a yacht that will go round the world but it will show it has. For me, that is the difference.

I got the impression that the thread has been pretty positive towards modern manufacturing and as the owner of a quality old boat I agree. I also prefer spade rudders despite having a transom hung one. Of course there are exceptions to the rules and other priorities when purchasing a yacht. Budget and Aesthetics play a large part of any purchase. lucky mine was cheap and is the best looking boat you will see.

 

[pvb]

Although they may be fewer there are still builders around that produce modern designs with exceptional quality - of course at a price.

Island Packet may not be the best example, because I accept the long keel isnt everyones cup of tea, but the build techniques are up to date, and the quality is excceptional. For example, there is nothing "old" about a hull that isnt balsa or foam cored, rather it is a more expensive construction technique that will result in the long term ins a stiffer and more resileint build. Yes, it will add a little to the wieght, but with a modern design not to an extent that will effect performance.

But Island Packet never sold a lot of boats - maybe 2000 or so in total? And the market wasn't there for what they wanted to produce, which is why they went bust.

Better examples maybe HB, Nautor, Discovery and of course Oyster. They all make yachts that will go around the world and not show they have. Beneteau will equally make a yacht that will go round the world but it will show it has. For me, that is the difference.

Most owners of decent-sized Swan/Discovery/Oyster yachts will have paid crew to keep the yacht in sparkly order. Most owners of Beneteau yachts will be DIY maintenance.

 

[Concerto]

On older boats you get water ingress through cracked encapsulated keels that doesn't get noticed, let alone fixed, you get rotting stringers, delaminated rudders, osmosis, rotten balsa cored decks, rotting ply bulkheads, corroded chain plates, corroded electrical wiring ... the list is endless. Nothing lasts forever, not even MABs, at least not without a considerable amount of work to stop leaks and keep them in good condition.

Anyone buying a boat needs to keep that in the back of their mind, the older the boat, the more likely there is to be a very nasty surprise hiding in there somewhere - an AWB under 10 years old wont have a lot of these long-term deterioration problems - more likely to have repaired accident damage which on a young AWB is pretty easy to spot.

I want to sail, not spend thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours on repairing nasty surprises. You can get into every corner of a modern AWB - the tanks are moulded plastic, the keel, and bolts, are visible - the rudder can be dropped and bushings/bearings replaced in a day - you can trace and see all the pipework, wiring etc. Every system has excellent access. In my AWB I can see the entire inside of the hull just by lifting removable floors or opening lockers- the only section of the hull I can't access is under the wet cell used for the heads ... I can see under it, just not access it.

Just these 2 sailing blogs would put me off an old boat for life .....

Sail Life

HaveWindWillTravel.com

.... in fact, YouTube is full of dreamers buying older "blue water" boats just to spend most of their lives fixing them.

PS: A sailing friend of mine had the grid in his SunFast re-attached after a grounding ... that was a decade ago and the repair has never needed to be revisited.

Have you tried changing your toilet hoses in a modern yacht? In many modern boats they are behind dropped in furnture blocks with no access. I can remember my father having to change an engine pipe and found it was behind a bonded in section of furniture. It had to be broken out to gain access and a new section made allowing for future access and veneered to match the rest of the cabin. Oh, the joy of a modern yacht he said. To me a large cockpit and open space cabin are both dangerous in rough weather as you do not have sufficient hand holds or places to brace against plus there is further to fall across.

By comparison in my 40 year old Westerly Fulmar all my bulkheads are bonded to the hull and deck, the deck joint is not just bolted, but glassfibred over. All the original deck fittings are covered under the deck with glassfibre to stop all leaks - but a pain when some work does need doing. They used real wood and veneered marine plywood, and provided the boat has been maintained, there should never be any problem with rot. All my plywood floorboards can be lifted and I can see all of my keel bolts. The keel is on a low stump which places the weight even lower and creates a small bilge compared to a very flat dish of the modern hull. I have a propellor shaft on a P bracket and only requires either a greased seal or a water lubricated one, neither cost much to replace if needed. By comparison the sail drive has been made for manufacturers benefit. They just drop it in the hole in the hull and the job is done - quick and cheap. Except every 7 years or so it has to be lifted to replace the seal, not a simple DIY job and most but owners pay a yard to do this. I can drop my rudder just as easily as a modern boat. I have no osmosis or problems with the rudder. There have been additions to the electrical system and all the original wiring is still all working. There is not rot in my balsa core deck, the only problem was the anchor winch had caused the reinforcing plywood pad to delaminate but was easily fixed with epoxy injected in and is now solid again. One day I ran aground on a sandy bottom doing 7½ knots and no damage done when I hauled her out 6 months later. Running aground in a modern yacht is something you do not want to do and requires immediate lifting to check for structural damage.

So when I do a comparison in construction methods all I can see is cost economies from factory building. Not all of them are for the long term benefit of future owners. At the weekend I was chatting with another boat owner. He had recently been talking with a maintenance guy working in a marina and was being kept very busy with all the repairs necessary due to modern manufacturing techniques. His story of an owner requiring an Ebersparcher to be fitted is just typical. The exhaust was to be fitted on the transom, but there was a very decorative design across the transom and the owner requested the exhaust must not touch the graphics so he must be careful. The fitter almost laughed as he could easily drill from inside because the transom was so thin, the pattern showed through the glassfibre.

For me I want a yacht that sails well and traditionally built with bonded bulkheads. I understand why so many people are attracted by yachts with so many domestic facilities and sun lounging areas as that is their priority in a mass produced yacht produced in a factory at a keen price. Unfortunately there are no modern yachts I am attracted to.

 

[ip485]

But Island Packet never sold a lot of boats - maybe 2000 or so in total? And the market wasn't there for what they wanted to produce, which is why they went bust.




Most owners of decent-sized Swan/Discovery/Oyster yachts will have paid crew to keep the yacht in sparkly order. Most owners of Beneteau yachts will be DIY maintenance.

To be fair, I think this is a simplistic explanation for IP's demise. They started in 1980, were taken over recently and are still going under new ownership. Not many builders can claim to have been in pretty much continous production for 40 years. The new owners have just launched a new 525, the largest in the brand's range. The reason Bill called it a day is also complex and not entirely the usual reasons of simply running out of cash. All that said, they are by far and away not everyone's choice, but they have an incredibly loyal following, and if you want a very safe, easily handled blue water yacht there is a lot to be said. Singing IP's praise over, they are never the less an example of a well built yacht, which was my earlier point.

I am not sure in the size range up to 50 feet that many owners have paid crew, of course some will. I dont with my 525, and wouldnt wish to, even if I could afford to (hmm, well maybe I should reconsider this statement!) . It is mangeable, even if it does take a fair amount of effort. Is it easier to keep one of these in good condition compared with a Beneteau - I doubt there is much in it, I dont see why. In either case you keep on top of the maintenance, or you dont. Obvioulsy those with a crew and/or just deeper pockets, may lavish more money. However, I do think a Beneteau will get to a point where it will require a very expensive and major refresh a lot sooner, and this is the vital difference. Once the cabinet work starts to look tatty it is a very signifcant and hugely expensive job. When (not if) the boat starts creeking there isnt a great deal you can do about it. I also suspect the deprecaition is much greater, because the market is much smaller for 10 to 20 year old Beneteaus.

The similarity is that most of the "basic" kit will need refreshing regardless, the rigging will get replaced hopefully before the yacht is 20 years old, as will the sails, and most of the mechanical parts - water pumps, navionics etc. Perhaps, and I dont know this, owners of better built yachts are more inclinded to keep the yacht fresh for longer.

As to design I often think some of the Beneteau types are superb for the Med. or the Windies - large open cockpits, vast space for lounging. However a cockpit canopy for the same yacht is an interesting excercise both in design and setting up because it is equally vast, and away from these climes, you need a canopy. Personally for Europe I would love a performing yacht with an enclosed deck saloon from which you can sail the yacht. Even in the Med., I dont care there are times at 2 am in the morning you dont want to be outside in the elements - and you only discover this when you sail long passages over nights.

You also discover you dont want a modern chart table balancing on a little bench - you want a comfortable chair with all the instruments around you that you can snuggle down into.

You also come to appreciate proper beds, and not coffins.

As ever horses for courses, sailing distance night and day in most weathers is a very different brief from day and occasional night sailing in warm weather. Both types are more than capable, but if you are looking for comfort then I think there is a world of difference.

 

[Rappey]

A lot of boat owners due to budget have no choice but to buy older boats.
Then comes a list of things that are good to avoid .
Saildrives. They do have advantages over shafts but at an unjustifiable maintenance/replacement cost.
Cored decks/hulls as the core gets wrecked due to leaks that you don't know about until it's too late.
Teak decks, nice but God help you when they need replacing.
The you tubers who buy old boats then spend nearly the price of a new boat on rebuilding them are not all crazy.
According to the half million mile plus experts the most important skill the sailor needs is the intimate knowledge of how the whole boat is put together and where everything goes to, how everything works , being able to take it apart and fix or fashion up something as a makeshift etc.
You need to be a jack of all trades.
Rebuilding a boat gives you that knowledge.
This would more apply to the long distance sailor.
If money was not an issue I could be tempted by a modern cat (gunboat/outremer) due to its large inside/outside living area and it's overall speed.
Cats have dramatically improved over much older designs.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Have you tried changing your toilet hoses in a modern yacht? In many modern boats they are behind dropped in furnture blocks with no access. I can remember my father having to change an engine pipe and found it was behind a bonded in section of furniture. It had to be broken out to gain access and a new section made allowing for future access and veneered to match the rest of the cabin. Oh, the joy of a modern yacht he said. To me a large cockpit and open space cabin are both dangerous in rough weather as you do not have sufficient hand holds or places to brace against plus there is further to fall across.

By comparison in my 40 year old Westerly Fulmar all my bulkheads are bonded to the hull and deck, the deck joint is not just bolted, but glassfibred over. All the original deck fittings are covered under the deck with glassfibre to stop all leaks - but a pain when some work does need doing. They used real wood and veneered marine plywood, and provided the boat has been maintained, there should never be any problem with rot. All my plywood floorboards can be lifted and I can see all of my keel bolts. The keel is on a low stum which places the weight even lower and creates a small bilge compared to a very flat dish of the hull. I have a propellor shaft on a P bracket and only requires either a greased seal or a water lubricated one, neith cost much to replace if needed. By comparison the sail drive has been made for manufacturers benefit. They just drop it in the hole in the hull and the job is done - quick and cheap. Except every 7 years or so iy has to be lifted to replace the seal, not a simple DIY job and most but owners pay a yard to do this. I can drop my rudder just as easily as a modern boat. I have no osmosis or problems with the rudder. There have been additions to the electrical system and all the original wiring is still all working. There is not rot in my balsa core deck, the only problem was the anchor winch had caused the reinforcing plywood pad to delaminate but was easily fixed with epoxy injected in and is now solid again. One day I ran aground on a sandy bottom doing 7½ knots and no damage done when I hauled her out 6 months later. Running aground in a modern yacht is something you do not want to do and requires immediate lifting to check for structural damage.

So when I do a comparison in construction methods all I can see is cost economies from factory building. Not all of them are for the long term benefit of future owners. At the weekend I was chatting with another boat owner. He had recently been talking with a maintenance guy working in a marina and was being kept very busy with all the repairs necessary due to modern manufacturing techniques. His story of an owner requiring an Ebersparcher to be fitted is just typical. The exhaust was to be fitted on the transom, but there was a very decorative design across the transom and the owner requested the exhaust must not touch the graphics so he must be careful. The fitter almost laughed as he could easily drill from inside because the transom was so thin, the pattern showed through the glassfibre.

For me I want a yacht that sails well and traditionally built with bonded bulkheads. I understand why so many people are attracted by yachts with so many domestic facilities and sun lounging areas as that is their priority in a mass produced yacht produced in a factory at a keen price. Unfortunately there are no modern yachts I am attracted to.

I've seen the restoration slides of Concerto and she's a lovely boat - a credit to you, and I take my hat off to anyone with the dedication to see a project like that through.

There is no way in this world however, that I would want to put that amount of work into a 40 year old boat - It would not be financially viable to pay a boatyard to do the restoration as it would require spending multiples of the boats value to have the pristine example you now have - it has to be a labour of love because the money invested would not be recoverable.

Your arguments against AWBs are aslo unfounded ... AWB cockpits are fine - my crew can all fit on the windward side of the boat, and brace themselves too - and you can still clip on in an AWB. We don't have to manoeuvre round a tiller, or worry about an errant main-sheet or block sweeping the cockpit either - we could go on about cockpit drains too in older boats but any green water that comes into my cockpit is out over the bathing platform through an 18 inch gap in a matter of seconds. I don't feel unsafe there at all.

Your fear of an interior that doesn't resemble a hobbit hole is also unfounded - that extra space allows me to walk unhindered into the forward cabin at almost all angles of heel. I do remember needing to hang on while I worked my way around the saloon table on the 12 inches of available floor space in my parents boat though - just to get to the forward heads - handholds were essential because you needed them just to move around on the limited amount of floor space.

My AWB has handholds too though - just in case - and fiddles.

There will never be agreement between the two camps, but you have to accept that AWB owners are just as happy with their choices as you are with yours - some people just don't value what you value, and for a variety of reasons that you may not comprehend - like feeling perfectly safe in an AWB cockpit - or spending a few hundred quid every 7 years to swap out a saildrive seal.

Enjoy your boat, and don't forget to reinforce that aft end of the keel rib

 

[ip485]

I would add that to be fair to AWB they are rightly playing to their audience. They deliver what the majority want (or think they want) at a competitive price.

In terms of what people want the reality is not many people live on their boats for any length of time, they dont make long passages, and they dont go to "distant" destinations, and this is especially true in colder climates., and that is fine.

If you want to do these things then AWB have their limitations. It doesnt mean they arent capable enough, but I think it does mean they struggle to do these things in comfort and with a build quality that will not end up showing many dents and chips on the edges.

As to the point of manufacturers thinking about a boat refresh ten years or so down the line, I am not sure since the modular build concept was introduced almost anyone has done this well, regardless of whether it is an AWB or something else. Manufacturers dont care! Ask anyone that has had to thread new pipes or wires and you will hear the same story - a job that should take 30 minutes, takes 2 hours - if you are lucky. God forbid you need to replace a main tank or something equivalent. I am guessing that before modular build was introduced it may not have been so bad. I suspect that it is s simple reflection that most people buying new boats have non intention of doing any of these things in the first flush of ownership, and the manufacturers know this.

 

[Concerto]

Baggywrinkle, it is funny how we keep talking about AWBs and MABs, but never talk about classic yachts. I am talking about the classic yachts from the 1920's onward, normally made in wood. These are more up the scale of dedication than my restoration. Why do people spend so much money on such out dated designs, but they have a dedicated following.

I never expect to get my money back from my restoration, let alone any recompense for the hours I have put in. I have done it all for my own satisfaction and pride of ownership. I could have bought a new 32ft yacht, but I just dislike the modern designs and construction methods, so I decided to buy a yacht that met my requirements and spend what I needed to bring it to a high standard as close to new condition. Before I bought Concerto I had never sailed on any Westerly and thought them as floating caravans, but now many think I am biased towards Westerly yachts, but they are well built and are still fit for purpose as per the original design. Centaurs were launched over 50 years ago and are still recommended for beginners on a budget. I have no immediate intention to sell Concerto and will keep her for probably another 10 years with little maintenance, probably similer to a new yacht.

It was lovely sailing yesterday and small things like making all 4 mainsail leech tell tales flying aft made it a memorable day. Doing this on a MAB and keeping up with a 36ft AWB over about 20 miles gives me a smile. Concerto is a sailing yacht and not slowed down by all the modern requirements of buyers of modern yachts. Virtually all of the AWBs have been greatly influenced by the demands of the charter market in warmer climates. They are great as floating cottages being used by charterers where they motor almost everywhere to experience the boating life (ha, ha sunbathing is not sailing)., According to most marinas in the UK only 15% of boats go out regularly even when used frequently to stay on, so that means few AWBs are sailed regularly.

Overall I still expect I will loose less money than the decreciation I would have on a new yacht. The number of people who have said they would love to buy Concerto is long. Next year she should be at Southampton Boat Show as the boat on the Westerly Owners Association berth, so everyone can come and see her and chat. The following year I will be circumnavigating the UK singlehanded to include Orkneys and Shetland. A few years later I expect she will be moved to North Wales as we plan to move to Cheshire to be nearer our daughter and grandchild(ren). Fully exploring a new sailing area is going to be fun. I do know when it is time for me to swallow the anchor I will have had at least 15 years with Concerto and she will be very easy to sell due to her condition. She will still be sailing in another 25 years when she will be 65 years old, can you say that many AWBs will still be sailing at the same age? I very much doubt it and I expect many will say then that they weren't built like my Fulmar and did not last.

 

[geem]

Baggywrinkle, it is funny how we keep talking about AWBs and MABs, but never talk about classic yachts. I am talking about the classic yachts from the 1920's onward, normally made in wood. These are more up the scale of dedication than my restoration. Why do people spend so much money on such out dated designs, but they have a dedicated following.

I never expect to get my money back from my restoration, let alone any recompense for the hours I have put in. I have done it all for my own satisfaction and pride of ownership. I could have bought a new 32ft yacht, but I just dislike the modern designs and construction methods, so I decided to buy a yacht that met my requirements and spend what I needed to bring it to a high standard as close to new condition. Before I bought Concerto I had never sailed on any Westerly and thought them as floating caravans, but now many think I am biased towards Westerly yachts, but they are well built and are still fit for purpose as per the original design. Centaurs were launched over 50 years ago and are still recommended for beginners on a budget. I have no immediate intention to sell Concerto and will keep her for probably another 10 years with little maintenance, probably similer to a new yacht.

It was lovely sailing yesterday and small things like making all 4 mainsail leech tell tales flying aft made it a memorable day. Doing this on a MAB and keeping up with a 36ft AWB over about 20 miles gives me a smile. Concerto is a sailing yacht and not slowed down by all the modern requirements of buyers of modern yachts. Virtually all of the AWBs have been greatly influenced by the demands of the charter market in warmer climates. They are great as floating cottages being used by charterers where they motor almost everywhere to experience the boating life (ha, ha sunbathing is not sailing)., According to most marinas in the UK only 15% of boats go out regularly even when used frequently to stay on, so that means few AWBs are sailed regularly.

Overall I still expect I will loose less money than the decreciation I would have on a new yacht. The number of people who have said they would love to buy Concerto is long. Next year she should be at Southampton Boat Show as the boat on the Westerly Owners Association berth, so everyone can come and see her and chat. The following year I will be circumnavigating the UK singlehanded to include Orkneys and Shetland. A few years later I expect she will be moved to North Wales as we plan to move to Cheshire to be nearer our daughter and grandchild(ren). Fully exploring a new sailing area is going to be fun. I do know when it is time for me to swallow the anchor I will have had at least 15 years with Concerto and she will be very easy to sell due to her condition. She will still be sailing in another 25 years when she will be 65 years old, can you say that many AWBs will still be sailing at the same age? I very much doubt it and I expect many will say then that they weren't built like my Fulmar and did not last.

I think Fulmars are one of the great boats of our times. They handle heavy weather well and were used by the local sailing school for many years. They were out in all weather.
A friend sailed his single handed across the Atlantic and back with no problems. Enjoy

 

[dankilb]

Hi - first post, but as you can see I've been lurking on and benefiting from the forum for a few years! This thread is close to home as we are nearly a (much disrupted) year into a pretty 'deep' refit of a late 80s Jeanneau 42...

I wonder if thing that risks being overlooked in the JenBenBav debate is the distinction between 'modern' (all AWBs) and (post-?!) modern (1990s-onwards/structural grid/etc.)? I think this is key in terms of the quality of the conception/design over the quality of the build and in this regard I don't think our 'modern' boat is ill-conceived for bluewater cruising at all. However, when it comes to quality of and attention of detail to the build, then our experience has left more to be desired.

In terms of quality of the design or specification - if you like - we felt that our AWB had enough features to win out (when you throw in the volume/accommodation) over the MABs that were the other main contenders for our limited budget and requirements for 'tradewind' cruising, including:
- 'Proper' structural floors/knees/chainplates - all plenty beefy and easily accessible (no grid here!)
- Partial skeg-hung rudder
- Well-spec'd rig (8/10mm wire & 4 separate shrouds)
- 'Bluewater' features built in - so no need for major modifications to fit/accommodate them (granny bars, dorade vents, huge cockpit drains you could lose your beer can down if not careful, tankage for 500L water/200L fuel, deep anchor locker)
- Push-rod steering (don't know technical term!)
- and plenty of other nice features, from teak-faced interior ply to deep galley sinks and a proper forward-facing chart table

However, in terms of strict build quality, the experience of our (entirely DIY) refit and the history of the boat suggests there is some reason for caution:
- No 'limber'(?) holes built anywhere into the boat, so freshwater from window/deck leaks collected and rotted out the plywood inside the structural floors, bottoms of all bulkheads, engine bearers/cabinet and 'semi-structural' cabinetry around the tanks, inside lockers, etc.
- ...the above not helped by unsealed end-grain, ply just protected with thin flow coat, and screw holes everywhere for factory cable/hose ties
- Laminate thin in places - as little as 12mm according to the vernier gauge (although it's as thick as double that elsewhere)
- No backing plates or reinforcement around through hulls (and think about where/how I measured the 12mm thickness?!?) which were poorly-seated and leaking as a result
- Voids in the laminate, some as big as 10p piece, seemingly in areas where the kevlar has absorbed the resin (but don't worry, the hull is still 'energized' by it!)
- Stern tube/shaft log de-zincified to the point of crumbling away
- Low quality timber/ply used as coring at the mast food on deck and also below the compression post, resulting in pretty bad mast compression
- No proper reinforcement or backing plates around (now 'flappy') stanchion bases

The previous owner was into the 5 figures on the refit when we took it over - and that was just after sorting the structural floors and sorting the leaks which had let the fresh water in. We've since spent ££££s and also fast approaching thousands of hours into putting the other things right, which - while still directly a result of previous neglect (and just age) - could have been addressed or lessened with better build quality.

So IMO: build quality? = pretty poor / design quality = pretty good, all things considered

We needed volume for two adults potentially living aboard and holding down day jobs for extended periods, so AWB design won out for us in the end. And on the MABs we looked it many of the same problems could have just been better hidden under solid cabinetry and in deeper bilges (also thinking Mads on Sail Life here!).

 

[ip485]

dankilb - great first post and a good summary of someone involved in a refresh.

I suspect some of the "horrors" you have found behind the cabinet work you might equally have found on some of the more expensive makes. Unfortunately cabinet work seems to be an excuse for cutting corners. Of course that is certainly not true of all.

It is interesting your comments about backing pates etc. I think this is part of the reason why on so many older AWB (and even newer ones) everything starts to move inside the boat, and it starts to creek and groan. Building a structurally rigid boat is a challenge. In a different world racing dinghies we usually found as the dinghy got older it started to flex, everything moved just a little more than the day it came out the mould. This can be largely avoided BUT I suspect it adds significantly to the cost and build complexity.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Great reading and good to see the fourm working as it was designed for
I took on a 39 year old moody 3 years ago and which needd work on as she was a coded charity boat,
The essential maintenance over the years was done to a good standard , rigging , and other coded items done .
I love the space which gives 8 berths before you use the saloon the original fridge still going strong. The perkins 4236 still starts first time no smoke, same alternator, although I think it went this last cruise,
Skeg hung rudder. And extended keel 400l diesel 500l water
So is slow in light winds but once the wind is up she moves and has been battered by strong winds and sea states which she handled amazingly , my wife, daughter are prone to go green on boats , but 3 years in not a carrot in sight.
The cabinetry is ply with teak veneer with solid teak doors and cupboard doors and needed completely stripped and re done .
A rewire and some work on the hull and she looks great again.
Bloody nightmare in maneuvering in small spaces heavy windage , and slow.
I look in envy as AWB come into a marina and turn on a sixpence and dock
They also fly by us in light winds and some do look beautiful,
But I'm an old fashioned yougish guy who grew up on old boats and teak and the smell of diesel and that's what a boar should feel like ,
I also sometimes look in envy at the more fancy interiors and well laid out sleeping arrangements on modern designs, they also have larger stems and bigger cockpit for that entertainment aspect ,I have never truly sailed an AWB so this comment is purely biased but we wanted a blue water boat that can handle itself and give some confidence to my family , and after 3 years learning being naive and a sense of no fear attitude we have been caught out is some nasty weather and this boat was immaculate in her handling and seaworthyness , she is built like a tank the hull is thick the chain plates solidly built and designed to remove water quickly.
Would I buy an AWB yes ofc but only in my mind for certain sailing areas and conditions