Build quality modern yachts

If you follow this link (What is HPL? | Plasticsheetsshop.co.uk) HPL is not a version of MDF.
MDF is essentially a thicker version of hardboard, as it’s name implies (Medium Density Fiberboard). It is not suitable for use in a damp environment as it’s water resistance is minimal and it loses strength when wet.
HPL a homologue of GRP using paper and wood fibre sheets which are impregnated with resin under high pressure. The sheets are used as facings for many materials: the link suggests that the maximum thickness is 6mm, so I think that the link in Buck’s post has conveyed the wrong impression. Bavaria isn’t using MDF but is using HPL as a coloured finish, probably in the 2-3mm thickness range, applied over some load bearing board.
 
I got a right raddling once because I suggested that, rather than wood, some contemporary boaty finishes were more akin to photographs of timber than the real thing. Just like motorhomes and B and M furniture. My persecutors were suggesting that these examples were still being produced in the traditional way - wood veneer on board.
It's a species of Formica. They may be pressure bonding it onto plywood but I doubt it. I always wondered how Bavaria formed those curved locker doors.

I am not moaning about it by the way, kitchen worktops are very serviceable examples of the art. However when it's damaged or edged by iron on plastics rather than solid lipping, or similar, you can have problems.
It's just nice to have it right.

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Oh my god, use of modern materials ? .... don't the yacht manufacturers know that hull design and material choice was officially frozen in 1975 as that was when perfection was achieved. If it doesn't scratch and water stain then it has no place in a boat. ... Oh ..... and it should all be cut and sanded by hand and finished with 437 coats of varnish applied with a brush made of badger hair ?
 
Skylark said:
Another welcome to the forum ☹

You’re asking some great questions and the responses clearly reflect the boating history of the the responder.
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True. But the sailing fraternity is for the most part very conservative. The same people who wouldnt dream of a Volvo 240 as their daily car think nothing of sailing a boat of the same age and claim to prefer it. Why do we expect cars to be thrown away at year 10 ( cue posters saying I still drive a 30 year old car - bound to be a few) but boats to last forever?

As with everything, design and technology moves on and gets better. The boats doing the RTW race now are streets ahead of Suhaili in every respect. Way tougher, way faster. And its the same with cruising yachts except that the conservatism of the sailing fratenity means that buyers look at weight as a virtue which their wives look at the inside as a caravan.

Benny, Bav etc are the boating equivalent of Ford, Renault and the likes. Bottom of the market designed to give more boat show appeal. Its a business model that works after a fashion.
 
To describe Benny, Bav etc as "bottom of the market" gives rise to disparaging connotations. Neither do I think that the sailing fraternity is for the most part conservative. I've just had a week sailing on Lake Solent. Almost all of the boats on the water and all of the activities within the marinas were centred around the modern generation, so-called AWB. The majority of older boats looked to be abandoned on mooring buoys or on lower cost, less convenient pontoons.

It seems more to do with demographics. People with AWBs use them. The more conservative no longer use their boats and prefer to spend their leisure time on forums offering out-dated advice ;)

I commented earlier in this thread, I like to acknowledge my fellow sailors when out on the water regardless of their vessel age or size. There's plenty of room for all.

Funnily enough, Sir RKJ was leaving Portsmouth harbour in Suhaili on Thursday evening as I was entering the small boat channel. Not my choice of boat as I'm guessing that it doesn't have a TV/DVD, microwave, fridge/freezer, wine rack etc. I don't know how anyone could set to sea without such basic amenities :)
 
I always thought a truly practical boat is one that could be filled with seawater, drained, rinsed and dried off, and sailed again without issue nor evidence. Like a dinghy I suppose.
There are instances I have seen of deliberately sinking smaller boats in the path of Big Bad Hurricanes , then raising them with air bags and compressed air, putting the mast back up, sails , battery, outboard and cushions back on , and hey ho, off for a day sail whilst hapless others are starting to sort out beached wrecks, destroyed marina “pile ups”, looted hulks , enviro mess and insurance wrangles..
In a very small way, I have always been a fan of epoxy sealing joinery before installing it in my own boat. In theory -ha ha- it will survive deck leaks or a wave, that might otherwise wick into end grain of any solid timber or man made fibre boards /ply...
 
Skylark said:
Funnily enough, Sir RKJ was leaving Portsmouth harbour in Suhaili on Thursday evening as I was entering the small boat channel.
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Great to hear that Suhaili was out on the water. Walked past her many times whilst berthed at Gosport. And even better if RKJ was aboard.
An earlier post compared Beneteau/Bavaria with Swan/Oyster... Hardly fair given the price difference!
As an AWB owner myself I agree that the cost cutting is in the quality of cabinet work, with lots of foil finishing rather than solid wood. And possibly manufacturing techniques that can make access to components tricky. But the equipment on these boards (Selden, Lewmar, B&G) is the same as on the top end boats and in my experience the days of under sized winches and blocks have gone.
Most of us spend more time in marinas or on moorings than we do sailing, so it is important to have comfortable accommodation as well as a boat that sails well.
I'm happy with my choice which gave me an 11m boat which cruised at 7kts and was comfortable to live aboard for months at a time.
I'm going for another new boat because the whole process of commissioning and getting exactly what you want, plus the benefit of knowing everything is new and works properly (amazing how easy it is to reef with new ropes!) is so satisfying. There will be a snagging list which a good dealer will sort out and possibly higher depreciation (although not on my last boat thanks to Brexit and the GBP devaluation) but my boat is such a huge part of my life that these are trivialities.
 
Blueboatman said:
I always thought a truly practical boat is one that could be filled with seawater, drained, rinsed and dried off, and sailed again without issue nor evidence. Like a dinghy I suppose.
There are instances I have seen of deliberately sinking smaller boats in the path of Big Bad Hurricanes , then raising them with air bags and compressed air, putting the mast back up, sails , battery, outboard and cushions back on , and hey ho, off for a day sail whilst hapless others are starting to sort out beached wrecks, destroyed marina “pile ups”, looted hulks , enviro mess and insurance wrangles..
In a very small way, I have always been a fan of epoxy sealing joinery before installing it in my own boat. In theory -ha ha- it will survive deck leaks or a wave, that might otherwise wick into end grain of any solid timber or man made fibre boards /ply...
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Not many electrical systems could survive full immersion in sea water!
As far as sealing joinery, one of the advantages of modern Ben/Jen/Bav "flat pack" furniture is that the pieces are all cut out of sheets of ply and then sent off for spray painting with multiple coats of varnish, including the end grain. Only then is it fitted together. So it maybe is much more waterproof than furniture which is fitted and then painted over (where the brush can reach). Of course you still have screws puncturing the varnish finish .....
Never understood why we don't have more furniture in moulded plastics.
 
The design of AWBs is brilliant, it's just that the designers have different priorities.

If you have £450,000 to spend on a yacht then you can choose between Bavaria's current 50' yacht or Hallberg-Rassy's new 40'er - the evidence is that most punters choose the extra 10'.

This is why AWBs dominate the market and why the likes of Camper & Nicholson went bust - most buyers are motivated by the glossy brochures, showing the mediterranean yachting lifestyle, the wife in her one-piece on the swimming platform with the kids. Before buying my secondhand boat I looked at a number of others, but the 1970's Nich 39 and 1980's Trintella 38 stood out for build quality, and I marvelled at little details - most people are not prepared to spend 20% extra for their boat to outlast them.

I've written before about my experiences last year sailing thousands of miles on 15-year-old Beneteaus and Jeanneaus - bits were falling off in my hand! But a 10-year-old car is considered a "banger", so why should boats be any different? If you buy a brand new AWB then you may well trade it in after 10 years, and I'd expect no problems,
 
KompetentKrew said:
The design of AWBs is brilliant, it's just that the designers have different priorities.

If you have £450,000 to spend on a yacht then you can choose between Bavaria's current 50' yacht or Hallberg-Rassy's new 40'er - the evidence is that most punters choose the extra 10'.

This is why AWBs dominate the market and why the likes of Camper & Nicholson went bust - most buyers are motivated by the glossy brochures, showing the mediterranean yachting lifestyle, the wife in her one-piece on the swimming platform with the kids. Before buying my secondhand boat I looked at a number of others, but the 1970's Nich 39 and 1980's Trintella 38 stood out for build quality, and I marvelled at little details - most people are not prepared to spend 20% extra for their boat to outlast them.

I've written before about my experiences last year sailing thousands of miles on 15-year-old Beneteaus and Jeanneaus - bits were falling off in my hand! But a 10-year-old car is considered a "banger", so why should boats be any different? If you buy a brand new AWB then you may well trade it in after 10 years, and I'd expect no problems,
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As somebody who owns and sails a Trintella 44, I appreciate the build quality and strength for the kind of sailing we do. At 44ft we have all the space we need for a sailing couple living onboard almost full time for the last six years. The shape of the hull and the deep fin keel, 7’2”, gives great performance. The large fully equipped galley rivals anything in a modern AWB. The flush decks give great space for lounging around or rigging up the paddleboard or sailing dinghy.
We love the fact that we reef at the mast where we have large granny bars. We reef and remove reefs fast where we have no friction in safety. The front of the cockpit is rope free and spacious as a result. Going on deck is no issue with flush decks, high guardrails and a motion that feels like a ship rather than a small yacht. We have sailed 27,000nm in 8 years and had the best time of our lives on our Van de Stadt designed yacht and never regretted the decision to buy her. She is a sensibly designed and fast cruising boat that is a joy to sail and own but she is optimised for a specific purpose. Long distance sailing. With a fuel capacity of 500litres and water capacity of 800litres you can sail an ocean in comfort. The fuel and water tankage is below the floor of the saloon sat on top of the keel where the weight is useful. She has a huge amount of stowage never seen on any modern yacht of the same length. For a 44 ft boat she only has berths for six since she was never conceived as a charter boat. She also has two heads and is set out for two couples where the owners cabin in the stern gets on suite and the guests in the bow get the main heads.
She has a walk in engine room where we have unrivalled access to the 86hp engine and diesel generator. We also have great space for the 200litre/hr watermaker. The engine room even has space for a workbench and vice for those little jobs.
Our Trintella is now 40 years old and getting a new paint job and refit ready for the next adventure
 
Generally speaking, the build quality of modern boats is excellent. Their designs reflect the demands of the market place where customers want a boat where there is space for the occupants of the boat to be comfortable either above or below deck. That means a reasonably open layout below and a cockpit that is deep enough and big enough to provide comfortable and safe seating. Customers want to be able to control the boat from the cockpit, so lines will be led aft and in mast furling predominates in new builds and so on.
My Greece based boat is a 20 year old Bavaria: build quality is excellent. In many ways it’s better than the quality of my 51 year old Hurley, where there are weird inconsistencies in the build. For example, most of the boat was clearly built by a man with a bucket of resin and a slap a bit more on attitude. However, the cockpit locker lid is paper thin in places to the extent that I’ve used a piece of 12mm ply to reinforce it. I think what I’m trying to say is that the quality control systems in most modern boat manufacturing is excellent. You may not like the designs, appreciate the more open layouts and so on but the actual build quality is generally fine. And they sail well. You simply have to remember that you reef early and that standing the boat on its ear won’t make it go faster.
 
duncan99210 said:
Generally speaking, the build quality of modern boats is excellent. Their designs reflect the demands of the market place where customers want a boat where there is space for the occupants of the boat to be comfortable either above or below deck. That means a reasonably open layout below and a cockpit that is deep enough and big enough to provide comfortable and safe seating. Customers want to be able to control the boat from the cockpit, so lines will be led aft and in mast furling predominates in new builds and so on.
My Greece based boat is a 20 year old Bavaria: build quality is excellent. In many ways it’s better than the quality of my 51 year old Hurley, where there are weird inconsistencies in the build. For example, most of the boat was clearly built by a man with a bucket of resin and a slap a bit more on attitude. However, the cockpit locker lid is paper thin in places to the extent that I’ve used a piece of 12mm ply to reinforce it. I think what I’m trying to say is that the quality control systems in most modern boat manufacturing is excellent. You may not like the designs, appreciate the more open layouts and so on but the actual build quality is generally fine. And they sail well. You simply have to remember that you reef early and that standing the boat on its ear won’t make it go faster.
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Not everybody wants a modern design. The build of modern boats benefits from computer design packages that didint exists 20 years ago. Materials can be paired down to the minimum that is sufficient to do the job required of it in 99% of circumstances. Hull thickness, deck thickness, rigging diameter, keel weight and therefore reinforcement around the keel structure is all minimised by good design. This makes the boats more economical to build. The interiors can be assembled in a factory and slotted in before the deck goes on. Great for speeding up production and nothing wrong with that. The builder sells boats and the owner gets a ice cheap boat.
The reality is that not that many modern boats built in such a way need to built any stronger or more durable than this. Most spend their life in a marina cosseted and used as holiday homes. When you sail a boat of this type long distance and spend months aboard the weakness of such designs start to show. The open plan nature of modern designs dont have sufficient stowage, tankage, handholds or a galley that can cook a meal in a F6. How about good sea berths with leecloths?
The lightweight modern design that works great as a weekend retreat and sails well with minimal gear onboard isnt the same boat when you load it with liveaboard provisions for crossing the Atlantic. Extra battery capacity, fuel cans on deck, food, water, etc all make it heavier and you need to find somewhere to stow it. When you get to the Caribbean you realise you need a bigger dinghy and engine as you will spend all your time at anchor. You fancy a paddleboard or diving gear ot a kayak. You add solar panels and a wind turbine as you dont plug in to mains power anymore. The lightweight modern design that was a great weekender is now laden down with so much gear that the speed advantage has gone and the boat and rig are stressed as you bash through the seas instead of going over them.
I have nothing against modern designs but they are optimised for a use I dont have.
 
geem said:
Not everybody wants a modern design.
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Even fewer want a 40 year old boat.

Modern AWB are the product of people wanting to buy them. For the vast majority that means weekends and summer holiday cruising.

Not everyone wants to sail the world or liveaboard their boats so that’s a different market.

I’ve always been a monohull fan but, as I have an open mind, I can see the many advantages that a cat has for trade wind sailing and living aboard. My last long distance/trade wind sail was in a cat. This was with liveaboarders moving their boat to a new region. When we arrived (ahead of several monohulls that departed at about the same time), I saw mostly cats at anchor, many AWB but none 40 or so year old design, other than those clearly now lying abandoned.
 
Skylark said:
Even fewer want a 40 year old boat.

Modern AWB are the product of people wanting to buy them. For the vast majority that means weekends and summer holiday cruising.

Not everyone wants to sail the world or liveaboard their boats so that’s a different market.

I’ve always been a monohull fan but, as I have an open mind, I can see the many advantages that a cat has for trade wind sailing and living aboard. My last long distance/trade wind sail was in a cat. This was with liveaboarders moving their boat to a new region. When we arrived (ahead of several monohulls that departed at about the same time), I saw mostly cats at anchor, many AWB but none 40 or so year old design, other than those clearly now lying abandoned.
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I have owned two catamarans and sailed one of them across the Atlantic and back. You are correct that catamarans are great for trade wind sailing. They are a poor choice for the West to East trip back across the pond which is why you see them out numbered by 10 to 1 on the return leg. The vast majority do the trip back on a ship.
Your quick glimpe of sailing in the Caribbean didnt spot the hundreds of older American boats that are used as liveaboards and kept in perfect condition. There are as many abandoned AWB that didnt survive the many hurricanes as older boats.
A lot of those abandoned boats are actually boats that impoverished locals have salvaged and now liveaboard them as a cheap home.
I accept that many people wouldnt choose an older design of yacht but there are many people who simply dont want what a modern boat offers. Its not down to money and not being able to afford a new boat. I just dont want one. If you gave me £500k, I cant think of a single modern boat I would want to buy with that money.
 
I think design is subjective and perhaps almost generational. Personally, I love the look of modern generation AWB's. I think my boat looks racey, sleek and has loads of room upstairs and downstairs. She also sails beautifully (for me). I like the modern light oak interior and all the modern electronics etc.. (being a gadget nerd). I don't see any reason why this boat won't last me decades as long as I look after it and don't get any ideas of sticking it on a charter fleet! Ticks all the boxes for me and I just don't get the same feeling on the older looking, dark wood interiors etc.. Everyone has different tastes.
 
Geem, you seem to be confusing build quality with design characteristics. Your post discusses in some detail why modern boats aren’t suitable for ocean crossings which isn’t what this thread is really about (yet many cheerfully make the sort of journeys you’re talking about without incident). It’s about how well built or otherwise the boats are. I’d say that the majority opinion is that most modern boats are built to high standards of quality control.
A further point, if I may. My 2000 Bavaria is well fit for ocean sailing: I’d happily take her across to the Caribbean and beyond. She has adequate tankage for the journey and copes well with the open sea. The galley is well suited to cooking in a force 6 with plenty of bracing available for the cook. I’ll give you that there wasn’t a sea berth when we bought her but that took an hour and a lee cloth kit to sort out. As to other ocean going kit, well, when we were looking for our boat we looked at many 80‘s and 90’s boats with the virtues you discuss. They all needed a considerable sum of money spending on them before I would have set off across Biscay in them.
But that’s in my opinion. Your opinion is as valid as mine: things that you regard as positives I tend to think of as negatives. For example, why would I want to leave the safety and comfort of the cockpit to put a reef in when I can do the same job from the cockpit with the lines led aft?
 
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