bs3911 compared to CCA for starter batteries

[geem]

I know enough about class T fuses. Nothing you say I know! You have zero evidence. It's not like they are that difficult. There are plenty of alternatives equally as good. I actually use NH type and you will find in my posts that I do recognise the importance of fusing. So what point are you making? Niggling and nit picking more like. Heavens knows you must be bored.

I didn't say lithium were even a great choice. I said they were something to consider. I didn't say that because they worked on a motorbike, I just mentioned that when I was challenged that lithium batteries couldn't start engines and were not suitable for starting engines, I said that even a tiny one will start a moderate sized motorbike engine and are suitable because they are approved by major manufacturers. You are misrepresenting and misquoting me here.

I don't assume I know more than professionals, but I know what I know and there were no professionals in this tech when I started, so I became my own professional. Besides, I professionals get it wrong all the time, so in general professionals need questioning. Or are they beyond being questioned because they have a badge and medal?

Yes you did suggest my boat would be at risk of burning down, because that is the only risk insurers would be concerned with in my boat, so you did imply it if not say it in so many words.

By the way, you should understand that there is almost no risk of LiFePo4 catching fire and absolutely so with the type I use, so that you made the above comments on insurance risk suggest a sad lack of knowledge and understanding.

Oh dear.
I will send this thread to my colleagues for a laugh.
If you think you need to tell me that basic info I give in. Wasting my time

 

[PaulRainbow]

Oh dear.
I will send this thread to my colleagues for a laugh.
If you think you need to tell me that basic info I give in. Wasting my time

When you read that someone is connecting lithium batteries to an engine without a BMS you know all you need to know.

 

[PaulRainbow]

It's a nice installation Paul. But it is not the design of a battery system such as we are discussing. It is a pre-packaged Victron battery, complete with a BMS.

It's certainly not the design of system you are suggesting. The Victron Batteries do not include a BMS.

What I have built a number of times is the installation you have bought from Victron, but at probably a sixth or less of the cost pro-rata to capacity. I'm sorry, but whilst it is nice and tidy and has all the ancilliary components you might want, it is something totally different. It is a systems integration installation. If you actually do lower yourself to ask for advice on the subject of lithium cell installations I would be more than happy to provide that advice.

Thanks for the offer, but i'll stick with what i already do. That most certainly does not include slapping four Lithium cells together and using them for engine starting without a BMS.

From a technical standpoint it would be pretty simple to use Lithium batteries for engine starting, even without a BMS, provided suitable provision is made for the various issues that doing so can cause. But, by the time you make those provisions the cost becomes silly.

There are also no up sides to using Lithium batteries for engine starting on a boat. Lead acid starts engines, they charge up fast enough, they are cheap and they require no additional hardware. Lithium offer nothing better.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Of course I can, but I suggest you learn first how to use Google search, so you don't trouble strangers to look up information for you. The syntax I use, in the Google search window, which you can copy and modify for similar searches is:
"starter battery" site: https://shop.gw.eu/

May i suggest you learn first how to post links that work ?

You will find it throws up a number of pages of recommendations and information about lithium starter batteries.

It might, if it worked.

The one I had in mind was:
WINSTON Lithium Battery 12V/40Ah (WB-LP12V40Ah) | shop.GWL.eu

As you can see they suggest it is suitable as a start battery.

Note this battery has zero BMS and should therefore they recommend it be used with care to monitor manually the correct charge voltages. It's not hard to do.

I cannot believe that they suggest using it as a starter battery without a BMS, just using a voltmeter to monitor voltages. What do you do if the voltages are incorrect, turn the engine off ?

No mention of protecting the alternator.

They also point out that the battery cannot be used in series, giving a link to the cells required to make up a 24v pack and for the BMS they suggest using, although they no longer supply the BMS they recommend.

8 of those cells would cost £528 plus shipping, excluding a BMS, the cells alone costing almost three times that of a pair of SLA batteries, which require no additional hardware. By the time shipping has been added, plus some form of BMS and charging taken care of the cost will be at least four time that of SLA batteries.

 

[Zing]

When you read that someone is connecting lithium batteries to an engine without a BMS you know all you need to know.

Paul. You (and Geem) should not resort to misquoting me to support your position. This should be a polite discussion, not an all-rules-barred-battle to show dominance, involving humiliation and defaming and denigration and misquotes. I did not suggest what you claim at any time. I suggested right from the start and repeated it, that the way to charge was other than the alternator. I suggested the best way would be with a specific charger on a timer.

 

[Zing]

It's certainly not the design of system you are suggesting. The Victron Batteries do not include a BMS.

Thanks for the offer, but i'll stick with what i already do. That most certainly does not include slapping four Lithium cells together and using them for engine starting without a BMS.

From a technical standpoint it would be pretty simple to use Lithium batteries for engine starting, even without a BMS, provided suitable provision is made for the various issues that doing so can cause. But, by the time you make those provisions the cost becomes silly.

There are also no up sides to using Lithium batteries for engine starting on a boat. Lead acid starts engines, they charge up fast enough, they are cheap and they require no additional hardware. Lithium offer nothing better.

It's a package system and I can see the BMS on the wall. A plug and play affair. It requires a different skillset from assembling from bare components and is a very, very expensive way to do it. And expense is an issue. It would be total overkill and financially wasteful to have the sort of set up you are familiar with to start engines. You can achieve an effective starter battery, and make it adequately safe with lithium far more simply. If you think you need all that then say, because as yet you haven't explained why.

Thank you for agreeing you can use lithium to start an engine and that it is pretty simple. That seemed to be one of the stumbling blocks. I hope we don't have to address that one again.

So what do you think you need to provide for the issues with these batteries and what are the issues you are concerned about? I'm not aware of any that don't similarly exist with lead.

You think there are no advantages to lithium batteries, in engine starting. I think you are wrong. These are the main advantages and note they barely require additional hardware compared to lead if set up as I described. Please support your claim of no advantages:
-Longer life and lower long-run cost if set up simply,
-Longer life means less replacement time and hassle replacing them.
-Higher peak current discharge capability, so easier starting.
-Near zero peukert factor so better starting capacity.
-Very low voltage drop, so easier starting.
-Better starting in extreme conditions, for example that in the CCA test a lead battery will go down to 7.2v and as such the corresponding starter speed may not start the engine at all but a lithium on the same discharge test will go down to 11v. Incomparably better.
-Half to a third of the weight.
-Less volume, so more storage space in the boat.

 

[Zing]

May i suggest you learn first how to post links that work ?



It might, if it worked.

I cannot believe that they suggest using it as a starter battery without a BMS, just using a voltmeter to monitor voltages. What do you do if the voltages are incorrect, turn the engine off ?

No mention of protecting the alternator.

They also point out that the battery cannot be used in series, giving a link to the cells required to make up a 24v pack and for the BMS they suggest using, although they no longer supply the BMS they recommend.

6 of those cells would cost £400 plus shipping, excluding a BMS, the cells alone costing over double that of a pair of SLA batteries, which require no additional hardware.

What you think was a link, was not a link, it was syntax for a Google search. It was not meant to 'work'. Please may I suggest you learn to read posts more carefully before you criticise.

As you say GWL do offer this battery as a starter battery and they do suggest it acceptable to be used without a BMS for engine starting. It is worth underscoring these points as resistance to change here seems rather strong.

They do not advise to charge it from the engine contrary to what you imply.

As to why they suggest a voltmeter, it is to see if your charger has failed and so you do not end up with a flat battery. It's exactly the same precaution you might take with a lead battery. Ditto for overcharging. Sensible advice.

Why does the alternator need protecting, or does the question come from your misunderstanding that you think they recommend it is used?

The reason why they recommend it not be connected in series is because users may operate them at the limits of their charge range, where it becomes important to have a BMS to prevent imbalances. If you never go into those areas - as was my suggestion for a starter battery installation - then you can connect in series safely.

2 of those batteries in series is what you would need to start all but a massive yacht engine and for a cost of $350 plus say $70 for a power supply, relays and timers you will get a battery with several times the life of lead and with the other advantages mentioned in the last post. They are quite affordable.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Fa

It's a package system and I can see the BMS on the wall. A plug and play affair. It requires a different skillset from assembling from bare components and is a very, very expensive way to do it. And expense is an issue. It would be total overkill and financially wasteful to have the sort of set up you are familiar with to start engines. You can achieve an effective starter battery, and make it adequately safe with lithium far more simply. If you think you need all that then say, because as yet you haven't explained why.

Thank you for agreeing you can use lithium to start an engine and that it is pretty simple. That seemed to be one of the stumbling blocks. I hope we don't have to address that one again.

So what do you think you need to provide for the issues with these batteries and what are the issues you are concerned about? I'm not aware of any that don't similarly exist with lead.

You think there are no advantages to lithium batteries, in engine starting. I think you are wrong. These are the main advantages and note they barely require additional hardware compared to lead if set up as I described. Please support your claim of no advantages:
-Longer life and lower long-run cost if set up simply,
-Longer life means less replacement time and hassle replacing them.
-Higher peak current discharge capability, so easier starting.
-Near zero peukert factor so better starting capacity.
-Very low voltage drop, so easier starting.
-Better starting in extreme conditions, for example that in the CCA test a lead battery will go down to 7.6v and at a corresponding starter speed may not start the engine at all but a lithium on the same discharge test will go down to 11v. Incomparably better.
-Half to a third of the weight.
-Less volume, so more storage space in the boat.

That's just ridiculous. I really cannot be bothered to waste my time replying.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The reason why they recommend it not be connected in series is because users may operate them at the limits of their charge range, where it becomes important to have a BMS to prevent imbalances. If you never go into those areas - as was my suggestion for a starter battery installation - then you can connect in series safely.

2 of those batteries in series (you don't need 4) is what you would need to start all but a massive yacht engine and for a cost of $350 plus say $70 for a power supply, relays and timers you will get a battery with several times the life of lead and with the other advantages mentioned in the last post. They are quite affordable.

Who said anything about putting 4 in series ?

The suppliers recommend NOT using them in series, for good reasons. They recommend using single cells, which as already posted, means 8 cells for 24v, total cost of the most basic system four times that of SLA.

You may be happy fitting batteries for purposes not recommended by the suppliers, skipping proper management etc and generally fitting a bodged system, due to failing to fully understand the subject matter, but i'm not.

I'm clearly flogging a dead horse here, so i'll bid you good day.

 

[Zing]

Who said anything about putting 4 in series ?

The suppliers recommend NOT using them in series, for good reasons. They recommend using single cells, which as already posted, means 8 cells for 24v, total cost of the most basic system for times that of SLA.

You may be happy fitting batteries for purposes not recommended by the suppliers, skipping proper management etc and generally fitting a bodged system, due to failing to fully understand the subject matter, but i'm not.

I'm clearly flogging a dead horse here, so i'll bid you good day.

Correct. 4 was a typo I meant 8 singles, so edited.

I gave the reason why series was OK. If you think there is a better one, please say, but I see you've gone. Never mind.

Bye. Have a nice day.

 

[Tranona]

You think there are no advantages to lithium batteries, in engine starting. I think you are wrong. These are the main advantages and note they barely require additional hardware compared to lead if set up as I described. Please support your claim of no advantages:
-Longer life and lower long-run cost if set up simply,
-Longer life means less replacement time and hassle replacing them.
-Higher peak current discharge capability, so easier starting.
-Near zero peukert factor so better starting capacity.
-Very low voltage drop, so easier starting.
-Better starting in extreme conditions, for example that in the CCA test a lead battery will go down to 7.2v and as such the corresponding starter speed may not start the engine at all but a lithium on the same discharge test will go down to 11v. Incomparably better.
-Half to a third of the weight.
-Less volume, so more storage space in the boat.

Modern diesels start instantly and as I have said many times a Red Flash type battery will do everything that you are claiming lithium will do for a fraction of the price.

This week mine failed after nearly 20 years of never failing to start the engine first time. Replacement cost £175 (under £10 a year!), was delivered to my door in 2 days and took 15 minutes to fit.

This is a classic case of a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

What was the question Again??

 

[Tranona]

Geem needs new batteries to start his big Perkins. Answer, or at least viable options (as with many threads) arrived pretty quickly. Lithium is probably not one of the viable options and rest of thread devoted to exploring why it is not.

Simples really!

 

[Zing]

Geem needs new batteries to start his big Perkins. Answer, or at least viable options (as with many threads) arrived pretty quickly. Lithium is one of the viable options with a number of advantages and disadvantages.

Simples really!

More than a bit of bias there and I fixed it for you.

 

[PaulRainbow]

 

[Tranona]

More than a bit of bias there and I fixed it for you.

More than a bit of bias there and I fixed it for you.

Not bias just reflecting the facts. You have failed to show any real advantage of your option over the others. Your post#86 just lists features of the product but does not show how these are of benefit in this application nor superior to the others. Just on the question of life. My everyday car has a stop/start system with an AGM. I use it almost every day mostly in urban conditions. so some simple sums. Say 300 days a year and 10 starts a day - 3000 cycles a year. The car is 5 years old, so 15000 cycles already. A replacement battery costs £90 and comes with a 5 year guarantee.

Start batteries in most boats have an easy life compared with a car. Space and weight at this level are largely irrelevant - might be another 6 pack of beer.

You will be on firmer ground for domestic bank, but only for high usage patterns, not for the vast majority of existing boats.

 

[geem]

OP here. Two 100 Ah Numax batteries installed. With discount were £101 each. Fitted in 10 minutes. Good for another few years. I didn't need to change the alternator or fit a special alternator regulator. I didn't need to add any special charging arrangements. I can still charge with my wind turbine or towed turbine. No hassle. Job done. I didn't ask about lithium batteries nor wish to install them