Broker advice in Greece and Croatia - help please

[garthc]

Hi there – I am a long time reader of this forum. Great source of information – thank you.

I am hoping to buy a boat in the med and am looking for some help. We are thinking of a 40-45 Ben/Jenn in Greece or Croatia with a view to have her ready to go next summer. We are coming from Canada and are planning to travel for some boat shopping in a couple of months.

Specifically:
1. Boat broker recommendations in the Ionian to represent us as a buyer? I have checked out the ABYA listings and see a few but know nothing about them.
2. Boat broker recommendations in Croatia? ABYA doesn’t list any in Croatia.
3. Any experience with Selymar in Croatia – they seem to have a lot of listings but no website?
4. Will a broker show you boats listed with other brokerages or only their own? Not sure how the commission systems works over there, etc…
5. How do you recommend protecting yourself at the end of the transaction to ensure you get all the documentation you need – from what I have read, it sounds like you hand the money over prior to the seller de-registering? What happens if the seller is then slow or not motivated to de-register?

Also, I have searched the forum and seen a few comments about brokers but I am looking to get current information, if possible.

Thank you very much for your assistance.

 

[Tony Cross]

Apollo Duck is a good place to start https://www.apolloduck.com/

AVOID Greg Yachts in Greece; http://www.greg-yachts.com/. The guy is a schyster, many of the boats on his website aren't brokered with him, some aren't even for sale!

 

[grumpygit]

Apollo Duck is a good place to start https://www.apolloduck.com/

AVOID Greg Yachts in Greece; http://www.greg-yachts.com/. The guy is a schyster, many of the boats on his website aren't brokered with him, some aren't even for sale!

This is very true, and also beware of most in the Lefkas area too, they have very similar way to the above.
I feel you will be very disappointed with their inept ways, the contempt for you as a customer and you will wonder how they stay in business.
IMHO. Try and buy private.

 

[ITH]

Can't help with Croatia, but we have some positive experience of Williams & Smithells in Greece
( https://www.williamsandsmithells.com). They are based in the UK but have an office in Lefkas, and an agent based in Leros Marina. They are selling our Nauticat 35, which I appreciate isn't what you are looking for, but we have found them efficient and knowledgeable about the Greek market.

 

[Bellacruiser]

Following with interest; we have just commenced our search for a boat (likely Croatia, Greece as second choice) and had our first viewing and additionally contact with a few other brokers. So far I have found very few that don't have some horror story written somewhere, yet offset by glowing recommendations elsewhere. It's a nightmare! I was pleasantly surprised to find that the standard contract one broker was used was written in English (and that was the language of the contract not just a translation) but under Croatian law and jurisdiction, which is understandable.

We also had mixed experiences with setting up a viewing and some poor admin around scheduling which really put us off one brokerage, yet the broker who actually showed us the boat was great; a minefield!

Interested in suggestions to buy private - I question how this works in terms of handling paperwork etc; presumably you'd avoid the broker but need someone to act as agent to navigate the de-registering/any VAT or tax filings etc (assuming re-flagging necessary)?

 

[Tony Cross]

Interested in suggestions to buy private - I question how this works in terms of handling paperwork etc; presumably you'd avoid the broker but need someone to act as agent to navigate the de-registering/any VAT or tax filings etc (assuming re-flagging necessary)?

The key things to be fully satisfied on when buying private are:

a) The seller actually owns the vessel

b) There are no outstanding mortgages or liens against the vessel

c) If you plan to keep here in the EU, you want proof of VAT having been paid

d) Get a professional survey

 

[garthc]

Hi ITH - who were you dealing with at W&S, was it Stephen? That is the only name I have come across.

Glad to hear you are having success with them.

Thank you.

 

[garthc]

Thank you very much for all of the advice. Sounds like a very mixed bag out there, and buyer beware.

I am also curious about the process of dealing with the paperwork privately. It sounds relatively complex logistically or is it actually straightforward.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Apollo Duck is a good place to start https://www.apolloduck.com/

AVOID Greg Yachts in Greece; http://www.greg-yachts.com/. The guy is a schyster, many of the boats on his website aren't brokered with him, some aren't even for sale!

Most certainly the bottom of the brokers barrel

 

[Cariadco]

Hi there – I am a long time reader of this forum. Great source of information – thank you.

I am hoping to buy a boat in the med and am looking for some help. We are thinking of a 40-45 Ben/Jenn in Greece or Croatia with a view to have her ready to go next summer. We are coming from Canada and are planning to travel for some boat shopping in a couple of months.

Specifically:
1. Boat broker recommendations in the Ionian to represent us as a buyer? I have checked out the ABYA listings and see a few but know nothing about them.
2. Boat broker recommendations in Croatia? ABYA doesn’t list any in Croatia.
3. Any experience with Selymar in Croatia – they seem to have a lot of listings but no website?
4. Will a broker show you boats listed with other brokerages or only their own? Not sure how the commission systems works over there, etc…
5. How do you recommend protecting yourself at the end of the transaction to ensure you get all the documentation you need – from what I have read, it sounds like you hand the money over prior to the seller de-registering? What happens if the seller is then slow or not motivated to de-register?

Also, I have searched the forum and seen a few comments about brokers but I am looking to get current information, if possible.

Thank you very much for your assistance.

I've got 2 recommendations for you, and both are known to me, personally and I can fully recommend them:

Corfu: http://www.pinnacleyachtsales.com You'll be talking to Colin.
Croatia: https://www.beneteau-croatia.hr and the Boss is Emil.

Regards.

 

[garthc]

Thank you Cariadco - appreciate the 2 referrals. I had Colin on my list so that is great.**I will also contact Emil in Split.*He sounds very professional.

I read your earlier post about your boat purchase experience with Emil.**Curious about the process - did you have to leave Croatian waters in order for him to de-register the boat and send you all the translated/notarized documents?**Can you get insurance if boat is not registered in your name at the time or did his insurance cover you until you got to Greece? Trying to understand the process here.. also wondering if you could have stayed in Croatia to finalize all the paperwork or did you have to leave?

When do you need an export clearance certificate if purchase a boat in Croatia?

I have Canadian and EU citizenship but reside currently in Canada so will likely register the boat under Canadian Flag. If I buy in Croatia, trying to understand the steps.**Was thinking once I received confirmation of deregistration,**I would then immediately register in Canada which can take a few weeks to get approved.…during this waiting period presumed I wouldn’t be able to get insurance coverage so boat Is in limbo in Croatia?

Thank you.

 

[garthc]

whoops ...just noticed some weird formatting with ** from my phone

 

[Cariadco]

My replies in CAPITALS (no, they are not shouty capitals, just easy to see)

Thank you Cariadco - appreciate the 2 referrals. I had Colin on my list so that is great.**I will also contact Emil in Split.*He sounds very professional.

EMIL WAS SUPERB TO DEAL WITH. VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE, FRIENDLY AND A PASSIONATE SAILOR. ALL THE AUTHORITIES IN SPLIT KNOW HIM, WHICH MADE THE DOCUMENTATION PROCESS GO VERY WELL.

I read your earlier post about your boat purchase experience with Emil.**Curious about the process - did you have to leave Croatian waters in order for him to de-register the boat and send you all the translated/notarized documents?**Can you get insurance if boat is not registered in your name at the time or did his insurance cover you until you got to Greece? Trying to understand the process here.. also wondering if you could have stayed in Croatia to finalize all the paperwork or did you have to leave?

I WAS ALLOWED TO LEAVE CROATIA WITH THE 'STAMPED' CREW LIST, WHICH AND AFTER I ARRIVED IN CORFU, HAD TO BE SENT BACK TO EMIL. HE THEN FINALISED THE DE-REGISTRATION PROCESS AND SENT BACK TO ME, THE FINAL PAPERS.
I ARRANGED INSURANCE WITH MY UK COMPANY, WHO HAD BEEN INSURING MY PREVIOUS BOAT. THEY HAD NO ISSUES WITH THE BOAT NOT YET FULLY IN MY NAME. INTERESTINGLY, I HAD TO LEAVE CROATIA WATERS ON EMIL'S INSURANCE, THEN MINE BECAME ACTIVE!!
I NEEDED TO GET BACK TO CORFU PRONTO, FOR A REGATTA I WANTED TO DO, BUT I GUESS YOU COULD LEAVE THE BOAT THERE UNTIL EVERYTHING WAS COMPLETED.

When do you need an export clearance certificate if purchase a boat in Croatia?
AS EXPLAINED PREVIOUSLY, THE 'CREW LIST' DOCUMENT ACTED AS THE CLEARANCE CERTIFICATE, AS BOTH THE CUSTOM/PORT POLICE AND THE HARBOURMASTER'S OFFICE HAD STAMPED IT.

I have Canadian and EU citizenship but reside currently in Canada so will likely register the boat under Canadian Flag. If I buy in Croatia, trying to understand the steps.**Was thinking once I received confirmation of deregistration,**I would then immediately register in Canada which can take a few weeks to get approved.…during this waiting period presumed I wouldn’t be able to get insurance coverage so boat Is in limbo in Croatia?

AS SOON AS I ARRIVED IN GREECE, I APPLIED FOR BRITISH SMALL SHIPS REGISTRATION (SSR) AGAIN WITH NO ISSUES AT ALL. DUNNO ABOUT THE CANADIAN PROCESS.

Thank you.

 

[ITH]

Hi ITH - who were you dealing with at W&S, was it Stephen? That is the only name I have come across.

Glad to hear you are having success with them.

Thank you.

We are dealing with Jonty Simms - he's in the UK office,

 

[garthc]

Thank you to both of you. Much appreciated.

 

[Bellacruiser]

Related question, any up to date recommendations for Croatian surveyors? We have a shortlist and been in touch but interest in any personal experiences

 

[Bellacruiser]

One more question (maybe two! )

Are brokers usually under exclusivity in the med (and specifically Croatia); i.e. if we see a boat listed with ABC Broker, and find them difficult to deal with, the seller won't really have an option to fire them and work through someone else?

Secondly, what's reasonable to expect to see in terms of paperwork prior to offer? I've just fired off the below and will see where that gets us, not prepared to sign/pay anything otherwise (and tbh would rather not waste time even viewing if we can't get the answers) but not sure what the norm is?

Many thanks for all your help so far; as we said, if the boat is not already sold/under offer we are keen to view in just over 3 weeks time on 7 September. You’ve been very helpful with our questions on the technical specification and condition of the boat, but to avoid a wasted trip to view the boat we’d appreciate the following information:

1. How long has the current owner had the boat?
2. If not since new, what is its previous ownership history?
3. What was its date of first registration? Has it always held Croatian flag?
4. What proof of ownership paperwork is there?/previous Bill of Sale etc
5. Are CE certificates available?/Proof of seaworthiness/Certificate of Conformity
6. What has its typical annual usage been? (you mentioned it is used privately with some charter)
7. Is the boat subject to any mortgage or finance?
8. Boat is listed as VAT paid:
 Was this paid in Croatia?
 Was this paid at 5% or 25%? E.g. around the time of Croatia joining EU
 Or was boat deemed exempt (0%) as 8+ years old/registered and in Croatia at 31/7/2013?
 What proof/evidence of VAT status is there?
9. What charter companies has she been managed by? (+years)
10. What evidence is there of service history, maintenance logs, receipts etc
11. Which marina is the boat located in currently?
12. Can you confirm price includes broker commission?

For documents on ownership etc, if any can be shared before viewing (over email) or at a viewing that would be helpful, but in any event we would wish to inspect these before any payment etc. If we could inspect sooner this would help us make any decision to purchase much quicker, and to note for your seller that we are cash buyers and will not need to arrange any financing/mortgage etc.

I look forward to hearing from you and thank you again for all your help so far

 

[Baggywrinkle]

One more question (maybe two! )

Are brokers usually under exclusivity in the med (and specifically Croatia); i.e. if we see a boat listed with ABC Broker, and find them difficult to deal with, the seller won't really have an option to fire them and work through someone else?

Secondly, what's reasonable to expect to see in terms of paperwork prior to offer? I've just fired off the below and will see where that gets us, not prepared to sign/pay anything otherwise (and tbh would rather not waste time even viewing if we can't get the answers) but not sure what the norm is?

Many thanks for all your help so far; as we said, if the boat is not already sold/under offer we are keen to view in just over 3 weeks time on 7 September. You’ve been very helpful with our questions on the technical specification and condition of the boat, but to avoid a wasted trip to view the boat we’d appreciate the following information:

1. How long has the current owner had the boat?
2. If not since new, what is its previous ownership history?
3. What was its date of first registration? Has it always held Croatian flag?
4. What proof of ownership paperwork is there?/previous Bill of Sale etc
5. Are CE certificates available?/Proof of seaworthiness/Certificate of Conformity
6. What has its typical annual usage been? (you mentioned it is used privately with some charter)
7. Is the boat subject to any mortgage or finance?
8. Boat is listed as VAT paid:
 Was this paid in Croatia?
 Was this paid at 5% or 25%? E.g. around the time of Croatia joining EU
 Or was boat deemed exempt (0%) as 8+ years old/registered and in Croatia at 31/7/2013?
 What proof/evidence of VAT status is there?
9. What charter companies has she been managed by? (+years)
10. What evidence is there of service history, maintenance logs, receipts etc
11. Which marina is the boat located in currently?
12. Can you confirm price includes broker commission?

For documents on ownership etc, if any can be shared before viewing (over email) or at a viewing that would be helpful, but in any event we would wish to inspect these before any payment etc. If we could inspect sooner this would help us make any decision to purchase much quicker, and to note for your seller that we are cash buyers and will not need to arrange any financing/mortgage etc.

I look forward to hearing from you and thank you again for all your help so far

My experience of Croatian Brokers is that the same boat can be listed by several brokers and the charter company itself - if you can find the boat on the charter companies "second hand brokerage" then you can save yourself a load of trouble and buy direct. The Broker will usually not reveal who the owner is until you have signed a document indicating that he was the one who introduced you to the seller (Both Almassini and Selymar did this to me) - this is to ensure he gets his commission.

This thread might be of interest concerning VAT status ....

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?399329-5-VAT-paid-on-boat-purchase-Croatia-am-I-liable

 

[Bellacruiser]

Thanks Baggy, you are a font of knowledge! Already read that VAT thread (and more!); there is one boat listed as VAT paid; a "2005" so could be considered so under any of the options and that's the one the correspondence above pertains to. Have already spoken to Sinisa at Maritimus and others with a view to using their services for surveying and also to help with verifying VAT status etc.

For one boat we have seen for sale we outright contacted the charter co, who manage it for a corporate; they put us in touch with the CEO and we have been corresponding directly. That boat is only with one broker who we have avoided bringing into the loop so far!

For the VAT paid one we have seen, it's only listed with one broker and we could not locate it at all based on the specs; having subsequently spoken to the broker we have now found out where it is chartered and gleaned enough info to find out more details of the charter operation, an it's a small outfit managing it for a private owner; but no further details. In theory as we have signed nothing we could try via the charter co to contact the owner but I'm not sure that's such a good idea?! We're also not looking at big ticket boats so cutting out a broker doesn't save that much on commission if splitting it in the middle, and we would still need to account for costs of advisors/lawyers to deal with paperwork in their absence?

We viewed one boat in June with Almissani and signed nothing but then again haven't had owner details; again that was in charter but owned by an individual via a company (he had two boats as a small business). So, so far none we have been interested in have been directly owned by a charter company!

We also have a friend who is a Croatian skipper and sailing instructor, she's very busy with the summer season but hoping come October she might be a little quieter and able to help a little!

 

[Irish Rover]

Hi ITH - who were you dealing with at W&S, was it Stephen? That is the only name I have come across.

Glad to hear you are having success with them.

Thank you.

Missed seeing this thread while I was away in July. You may be interested in my experience with W&S
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?495544-Lefkas-Yacht-Brokers