Brits having a hard time in AC?

[bedouin]

I'm probably completely out of turn here. With such massif improvements between now and before Christmas and with the ultimate competitor in Sir Ben at the helm. Could I possibly suspect an element of gamesmanship here

Perhaps they weren't too bothered about not having all the upgrades on the boat before the races in December.

Now it is getting serious - although of course no one actually goes out at this stages. So it is possible / likely we will see a leap forwards by AM before the Prada cup is settled.

On a side note - it is a shame there are only 4 teams involved. I think the AC has gone down a blind alley with these boats and let's hope that when Ben is the defender they choose a more accessible rule where we can get back to match racing rather than engineering battles.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

On a side note - it is a shame there are only 4 teams involved. I think the AC has gone down a blind alley with these boats and let's hope that when Ben is the defender they choose a more accessible rule where we can get back to match racing rather than engineering battles.

First time I have really enjoyed watching AC .

Compelling, will they get it up or not ?

One thing I don't understand, do they have a choice of how much canvas they can set ?

I'm sure I heard a commentator suggest that more sail should have been the case.

 

[bedouin]

First time I have really enjoyed watching AC .

Compelling, will they get it up or not ?

One thing I don't understand, do they have a choice of how much canvas they can set ?

I'm sure I heard a commentator suggest that more sail should have been the case.

There was a discussion on the commentary about 15 minutes before the start as to whether they should be changing jibs (apparently it takes 10 minutes!). At that time they were expecting more wind and the discussion was whether they should move to a smaller jib. As it was it was suggested that AM didn't have their largest jib up.

 

[kingfisher]

On a side note - it is a shame there are only 4 teams involved. I think the AC has gone down a blind alley with these boats and let's hope that when Ben is the defender they choose a more accessible rule where we can get back to match racing rather than engineering battles.

we have been spoiled. The old days only had 2 boats. Multiple contenders/Prada cup is a fairly recent phenomenon. For me, AC should remain completely bonkers, no-holds barred, no money spared. “Accessible” is for the olympics.

 

[Bobc]

Most interesting for me in the last race was the hear Ben and Giles making calls on when to "give it a go" and when to displacement sail. I think that's going to be a real key to getting these boats around the course in marginal conditions, and the ability to re-configure the rig and power it up for displacement mode could prove very valuable come March.

 

[kingfisher]

I'm probably completely out of turn here. With such massif improvements between now and before Christmas and with the ultimate competitor in Sir Ben at the helm. Could I possibly suspect an element of gamesmanship here

Matthew Sheahan discussed this with the owner of North Sails. Very prophetic. Massive changes were made: new foils, new procedures, new boom, new headsail. New sail controlls.

 

[dunedin]

I'm probably completely out of turn here. With such massif improvements between now and before Christmas and with the ultimate competitor in Sir Ben at the helm. Could I possibly suspect an element of gamesmanship here

I certainly don’t think INEOS was intentionally on a go slow before Christmas:
1) They have had so little time to practice, and before then zero time to compare against the competition - it would have been nuts to throw away the chance to do a serious speed comparison (which showed the issues)
2) Ben, and Giles, have always been big on the psychology aspects of racing, and in particular seeking to ensure that the competitor thinks they are beaten before they reach the start line. They would have wanted to be seen as the boat to beat, not the also ran.
3) If in the pre-Christmas races they had been trying to keep a secret performance edge under wraps, they would have eased off slightly when ahead - not be a leg behind or even ignominiously lapped.
So no, I think that was a serious wake up call and an amazing response.

 

[FWB]

From the Telegraph..
Ben Ainslie shrugs off 'sandbagging' claims as Ineos Team UK produce remarkable turnaround in America’s Cup qualifier
Having been humiliated in a pre-Christmas warm-up regatta, Sir Ben Ainslie’s team made a flying start to the Prada Cup Challenger Series

 

[Laser310]

The official resolution of the outhaul issue from the first day of the Prada Cup is now on the notice board

AC36 Jury Case 01.pdf

 

[Laser310]

good on Luna Rossa and Britannia for their victories, but the racing was pathetic

You can say that the brief was to build boats that could race in those conditions - but it clearly brings a bigger component of luck to the competition than is desirable.

also, it's just not going to be much fun - either for the competitors, or the fans.

The wind minimums should be raised.., with particular attention to the lowest windspeed observed during before the start.

The current 6.5kt minimum is too low.

also, rather than shortening the race.., they should consider abandoning when boats are dropping of the foils. Not necessarily every time a boat can't foil, but when it's clearly a problem

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I'm probably completely out of turn here. With such massif improvements between now and before Christmas and with the ultimate competitor in Sir Ben at the helm. Could I possibly suspect an element of gamesmanship here

Ben Ainsley said that the trials showed faults in the vessel and weaknesses in the team. He went on to explain how hard they had worked to get this all fixed. Perhaps it is testimony to the management process and the skills of the team, to review, establish issues and solve the problems. He also stated that they had worked almost non stop up to the race to get it all sorted. I can imagine the crews practising on dry, dummy boats their manoeuvres until they were slick, the technical people fixing all the weakness they found and the strategists working out how to keep the power on and the boat on foils.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

get back to match racing rather than engineering battles. ...

It has always been about Engineering and skill, that's what separates the AM from say, the Congressional Cup, which is a match race in identical boats and highly umpired. I think it was flaming that stated that the AM has always been about rich men willy waving by pushing the technology boundary.

 

[savageseadog]

Time to re-title the thread

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... You can say that the brief was to build boats that could race in those conditions - but it clearly brings a bigger component of luck to the competition than is desirable. ...

Why the luck? They are using all their skill, experience and technology to develop a strategy. Take the holes in the wind as an example, GB arrives near the mark and comes off foils in the wind hole. In the past, a slower boat would have taken an age to get there and the wind conditions are likely to have changed by then. Now, at 30 Kts you arrive straight into the same hole, no real advantage, so it is down to skill to and strategy to sail through the hole and get back to foiling. Sure, it may not be to everyones taste, but I found that fascinating and quite gripping.

 

[Laser310]

Why the luck? They are using all their skill, experience and technology to develop a strategy. Take the holes in the wind as an example, GB arrives near the mark and comes off foils in the wind hole. In the past, a slower boat would have taken an age to get there and the wind conditions are likely to have changed by then. Now, at 30 Kts you arrive straight into the same hole, no real advantage, so it is down to skill to and strategy to sail through the hole and get back to foiling. Sure, it may not be to everyones taste, but I found that fascinating and quite gripping.

as to whether it was fascinating and gripping.., sure one or two races like this were a novelty, but I would hate to see either the prada cup or the ac largely raced in those conditions.

as far as skill goes - I'm not saying Ben isn't skilled.., but I've raced quite a lot in those conditions in boats less sensitive to windspeed variation than those boats, and there just _is_ a huge component of luck to being in the right place for the puff at the right time. it's the kind of race where afterwards you look like a genius.., but inside you know it could easily have gone the other way.

The sailing instructions are, i think, a little unclear about exactly how the 6.5kt minimum is applied. It appears that the wind needs to average below 6.5kts for a full 30 seconds during the period from 9 minutes to 4 minutes before the start. As I read it, when that happens, the race director is obligated to postpone the start.., but they are not obligated to have a start if that condition is met - so there is some discretion.

I think 30 seconds is too long to average over for these boats.., and i also think that the 6.5kt minimum should be raised - why not try 7.5kts?

I wonder if the race director, even knowing the SI's give discretion, is reluctant to use it, and operates under the principle that if the race can proceed.., it must.., for fear of appearing to show favoritism.

Race Committee discretion to start, or not.., to abandon, or not.., to shorten/change, or not, is just part of yacht racing...

 

[bignick]

The boats have all been designed and optimised with the 6.5 kt minimum wind speed in mind and they look to have been optimised for slightly different targets, using meteo forecasts. It wouldn’t be fair to raise it at this stage, because it would undo the technical work the teams have done and change the bias between the boats. I suspect the nz team will be optimised for a lower wind speed than the challengers, so I can’t foresee them agreeing to an increase in the minimum.

 

[Mudisox]

2) Ben, and Giles, have always been big on the psychology aspects of racing, and in particular seeking to ensure that the competitor thinks they are beaten before they reach the start line. They would have wanted to be seen as the boat to beat, not the also ran.

I think all the great competitive sailors have that ability, on the water; when they are ahead the opposition think " Oh Ben is ahead, I'll not catch him,; or if behind, then "Oh it's Ben, he'll overtake me".
It is a mindset, Rodney Pattison in FDs, Ben and before that Paul Elvstrom.

 

[bedouin]

The trouble with the races today was that the wind dropped - so having a different minimum start wind speed would not have helped. Don't forget that for the 2nd race they were considering changing down to smaller jibs because they were expecting more wind. The it died away completely at stages after the start.

 

[Laser310]

The boats have all been designed and optimised with the 6.5 kt minimum wind speed in mind and they look to have been optimised for slightly different targets, using meteo forecasts. It wouldn’t be fair to raise it at this stage, because it would undo the technical work the teams have done and change the bias between the boats. I suspect the nz team will be optimised for a lower wind speed than the challengers, so I can’t foresee them agreeing to an increase in the minimum.

it's a good point.., and even if the challengers could raise it by themselves for the Prada Cup, that might mean that it won't yield the best possible challenger for the AC itself.

Nevertheless.., I don't want to see much more of that kind of racing.

And just because Ben had a good race in those conditions doesn't mean that he always will - luck can go either way...

Ben is such a good sailor, and he's working so well with Giles Scott, that were INEOS to make it to the final, I'd much rather see it contested in good sailing conditions - that would play to their strengths versus NZ.., it would let them take full advantage of their strongest weapon - their skill.

If I were an NZ fan, and NZ were facing INEOS in the AC.., the last thing I would want is a test of match racing skill - I would be hoping for crappy light wind conditions with a high random luck factor - like yesterday,

 

[Laser310]

The trouble with the races today was that the wind dropped - so having a different minimum start wind speed would not have helped. Don't forget that for the 2nd race they were considering changing down to smaller jibs because they were expecting more wind. The it died away completely at stages after the start.

I'm not sure what the rules are about abandoning in the Prada Cup. It is not addressed in the SI's so maybe it's just the RRS?

There are so many documents for this event, that i would be surprised it it's left to the RRS.

Under normal circumstances, both races would have been candidates for abandonment.