British boat builders. Rubbish!

[Babylon]

Craftsmanship is an attitude, not a question of available tools.

Of course it took him 4 times as long as anyone else..... and as a consequence he went bust......

No, he's quite solvent (despite only charging me £18/hour six years ago), lives in a large house he's paid for, has brought up three children all now post-college. His wife (who he calls 'The Ayatolla') worked as a senior nurse. He just prefers to work on old buildings rather than new-builds.

I myself can mark and cut single-drawer dovetails by hand as fast as, but finer than, any router with a dovetail-jig. The jig slowly becomes more time-efficient when making multiple drawers (it's initial setup time is quite long), but can never achieve the finesse of hand-cut work which gives barely a 1mm gap between the ends of each dovetail.

Similarly, my old cottage is so idiosyncratic that his careful hand-woodworking would have left the nailgun and chopsaw crews scratching their heads - or wrecking the crookedness by trying to straighten everything out!

Good craftsmanship is a state of mind (ask any German, Swedish or Japanese worker) which has little to do with what kit you prefer to use. That attitude to craft was the British baby that got thrown out with the British bathwater!

 

[electrosys]

If people don't like the way commercially-built boats are put together - the answer is obvious: build your own. It's still allowed (just), and by building your own boat you will know how well (or otherwise) it's been put together. Then, if it falls apart later, you've only yourself to blame ...

 

[RobF]

If I recall correctly, chip on the shoulder originates from a fallout between british trade unions and their management.

On the automotive front, Austin Rover had Trade Unions who insisted that painting the line down the body work was a skilled job and required a dedicated worker. However, as there were 3 different colours of line, this required three dedicated workers! Whilst it's easy to blame the shopfloor, it's worth noting that management weren't exactly working hard at what they were supposed to do (finance, marketing & strategy).

On the nautical front, my own boat is British made and is probably the best built and most innovative 20 footer I've encountered. Sadly, the build quality makes it quite expensive for a 20 footer and it could be too innovative for many people. It's also worth noting that Oyster and Discovery are amongst the highest rated yachts and both are British.

 

[bryantee]

too true

many of the messages posted are true.its ability and attitude plus antecedents. I trained in uk
with a half uk/american company. as an apprentice. training was the key not output per pound/hour.at present my tally of countries worked is about 14. with 6 different countries of employers and many different nationalities I have found with uk that because training is expensive its not encouraged.but if you do it ,its cost effective. but go on your own. and you can make it., its the flexibility you see? usa, train and if you can operate ok and pay well.germany train pay well more able. but remain within your own ambit. swiss even better than the germans but stay within your own caste.french they have their own class system , but it works hard. Greece .what to say. not the hardest place i ve worked but ( Poor paid)JANUS springs to mind.
India Pakistan sri Lanka. middle east. trainable and in twenty years they will be much better ,
but probably more expensive than mid .west europeans.

comments please

 

[nathanlee]

So a combination of factors leaves Nathan grumpy. I can't see any fix or way of coping except to check and make good yourself.

A well thought out post, as always, Will.

I have now made good, although I've temporarily lost my bed until the epoxy goes off.

http://onkudu.com/fitting-out-kudu/new-floors/

Or, for those that can't be bothered with the full story...

 

[nathanlee]

many of the messages posted are true.its ability and attitude plus antecedents. I trained in uk
with a half uk/american company. as an apprentice. training was the key not output per pound/hour.at present my tally of countries worked is about 14. with 6 different countries of employers and many different nationalities I have found with uk that because training is expensive its not encouraged.but if you do it ,its cost effective. but go on your own. and you can make it., its the flexibility you see? usa, train and if you can operate ok and pay well.germany train pay well more able. but remain within your own ambit. swiss even better than the germans but stay within your own caste.french they have their own class system , but it works hard. Greece .what to say. not the hardest place i ve worked but ( Poor paid)JANUS springs to mind.
India Pakistan sri Lanka. middle east. trainable and in twenty years they will be much better ,
but probably more expensive than mid .west europeans.

comments please

I want a job in Greece.

Anyway, having never work in a secondary industry, I can't really comment on the various cultures, but I do know that times are getting harder for us web developers in Britain.

India is taking a lot of the work, and because of the cost of living over here, we can't compete. I mean, we really can't afford to compete, not just aren't willing to take a cut in lifestyle. Traditionally the Indians have delivered substandard work, but I must admit that they seem to be improving in leaps and bounds. A friend recently went to India for some development work (the barstool! ) and they have delivered exactly what they said they would.
Time to bail out of software I think. Either that, or go work in India where I can also charge what they charge because my living costs are then on par.

 

[Ceirwan]

A well thought out post, as always, Will.

I have now made good, although I've temporarily lost my bed until the epoxy goes off.

http://onkudu.com/fitting-out-kudu/new-floors/

Or, for those that can't be bothered with the full story...

I'd have been tempted to glass along the full length of the stringers, leaving the limber holes. And spread the glass out a bit further, that way they'll become a nice strong structural part of the hull.

Seajet, my last yacht was an Eygthene 24, and had exactly the same, inadequate backing more most stuff, and shortcuts, poor workmanship hidden behind interior liners.
The pushpit bolts are half on half off the hull deck joint, so in order to a adequately support it, the underside of the deck would need to be glassed up to match the thickness of the joint and then a backing pad in. To much like hard work for them I guess!
The chainplates are all decent solid construction apart from the back stay, which has a tin6 6mm ply backing plate! (Which is half on and half off the deck joint as well, so no good!)

 

[Joker]

Oh, don't worry - as I well know, people are still selling appalling built boats today. For those of you who don't know.

 

[Avocet]

Citroën were making the hydraulic suspension components - which have no seals and rely on good fit - to 1 micron manufacturing tolerance in the later 50s.

Yes, I had a couple of DSes. I once replaced the spool valve from inside a hight corrector of a late car (1974) with one from a much earlier car (late 1960s) and it worked fine. As has been said, these didn't have seals and relied in incredibly tight machining tolerances - not bad to have two randomly selected parts, made nearly 10 years apart, fitting together!

In much more recet years I met a Peugeot engineer who told me that they couldn't understand how Citroen did it for the money! (Which, of course, they ultimately didn't, because Peugeot bought them)!

I also agree about the hydraulic systems being pretty indestructible. The earliest cars used a red hydraulic fluid that absorbed water (because they had natural rubber seals). I think this got them a poor reputation - especially in wet, North European countries. In the 60s they changed to mineral oil based fluid and were remarkably trouble-free. Mine certainly never gave me any trouble. The fluid was always expensive and I don't think people changed it (or cleaned the strainer) as often as they should.

Anyway, back to boats. We had an Evolution 22, and found it a bit light and flimsy - especially round the lower rudder pintle. That's unfortunate when it's a lift-keeler and the rudder is sometimes the first bit to hit bottom!

Our Cutlass 27 is very solidly laid up but the gelcoat on the topsides has failed - don't know why. During the process of machining it off, I found more small viods than I'd have expected to.

The only "modern" boats I've been on of similar size and age were a Westerly and a Beneteau. I thought the former was better-built, in terms of fit, quality of materials and finish - though the Benny had a more stylish and flashy interior.

I also feel that the British car industy failed for multiple reasons. For a start, it struggled to get going again after the war - often with absolutely worn-out tooling that had been running 24/7 making war stuff. I also agree that the workers could be a ridiculously truculent bunch, and management didn't get their hands dirty often enough. Still, we are where we are...

 

[Ubergeekian]

Yes, I had a couple of DSes. I once replaced the spool valve from inside a hight corrector of a late car (1974) with one from a much earlier car (late 1960s) and it worked fine. As has been said, these didn't have seals and relied in incredibly tight machining tolerances - not bad to have two randomly selected parts, made nearly 10 years apart, fitting together!

The parts were paired for the first two or three years of productions, then they got good enough to make them interchangeable. It was and is an astonishing feat of production engineering - they made 1.5m DSes (mine may well be the last) and sold more in the last year of production than in any previous. What did for Citroen was two dreadful - in retrospect - engine decisions. The Maserati engine in the SM tuned out to have all the charm, flexibility and, alas, reliability one expects of high-powered Italian engines and the Wankel engined Birotor drank fuel and was hammered by the 1973 oil crisis.

Plus ça change, though - the development costs of the TA bankrupted Citroën in the thirties and they were bought by Michelin, who saw a huge market for radial tyres in front wheel drive cars.

 

[Billjratt]

Nathan says the hull build seems OK but the finish is poor and describes the mast compression post. My corribee didn't come with one of them!! Also, the brochures didn't show one in any of the pictures, that I can remember.
So who did the poor work? Possibly the early owners - I had to add a compression post when the "knees" (if I can call them that) supporting the athwartships beam under the mast cracked and the roof sagged a bit.
Also, the ballast seems different. Mine (a fin keel) was filled with shot and epoxy rather than lead pigs . Again, this may have been part of a home completion project.
The only problem attributable to Newbridge that I had (apart from the mast, and that was a fat guy on the roof!) was a leak in the rudder tube due to worn bearing sleeves.
It's worth remembering there are a lot of home completed boat kits out there - some were finished competently and could be considered to be factory made if you didn't know. Others, however, are different. The surveyor should maybe have mentioned it in his report.

 

[DownWest]

I think I am right in saying that Citroen lost money on every D model they built. But made up on the small stuff. 2CV etc.
I also lost pressure on a D 20 special. First the steering got tough, then the brakes went and the suspension lowered to the bump stops (50kph max) We managed to figure out which hose had failed (return from left front suspension) and found a tractor mech. who was open. He had the fluid and a light, so we could fix the leak. Odd result was that it was several days before the brakes cleared the air. A touch resulted in a crash stop, ouch!
BTW, the foot/parking brake acted on the front discs, and was extremely effective.
As for QC, I had several occasions were I was told to 'slow down' to make the job worth it.
One was, I designed and built some fire places for a high end vila. The Arquitect(aplogeticly) asked me if I could help out with unloadng the clients containers. No prob. I turned up with my help.
The other help was 2 guys 'with a van' Brits. I was quickly told that this could be strung out for a couple of days. Sorry , I don't have that time spare. One of the 'Van guys' left after half an hour to do another job. But expected to be paid for this one.... The unloading lasted half a day ( with resistance) Bit depressing.
A

 

[nathanlee]

Nathan says the hull build seems OK but the finish is poor and describes the mast compression post. My corribee didn't come with one of them!! Also, the brochures didn't show one in any of the pictures, that I can remember.
So who did the poor work? Possibly the early owners - I had to add a compression post when the "knees" (if I can call them that) supporting the athwartships beam under the mast cracked and the roof sagged a bit.
Also, the ballast seems different. Mine (a fin keel) was filled with shot and epoxy rather than lead pigs . Again, this may have been part of a home completion project.
The only problem attributable to Newbridge that I had (apart from the mast, and that was a fat guy on the roof!) was a leak in the rudder tube due to worn bearing sleeves.
It's worth remembering there are a lot of home completed boat kits out there - some were finished competently and could be considered to be factory made if you didn't know. Others, however, are different. The surveyor should maybe have mentioned it in his report.

From your description, your Corribee is a MK2 or MK3. Mine is a MK1 which has a bigger cabin and the mast compression post.

"The surveyor should maybe have mentioned it in his report."

I couldn't afford one. I only just had enough to the buy the boat in the first place. The week before the following pay day, I had to borrow a tenner from a chap at work to buy food. That's how close cut the purchase of Kudu was

Kudu wasn't home finished, and I know this because the hull is lined with a special material that requires a special process to apply, that was an optional extra at the factory. The material (which is a permanent covering) covers parts of the boat that would have certainly been left to the owner as part of a home finish kit.

 

[sailorman]

From your description, your Corribee is a MK2 or MK3. Mine is a MK1 which has a bigger cabin and the mast compression post.

"The surveyor should maybe have mentioned it in his report."

I couldn't afford one. I only just had enough to the buy the boat in the first place. The week before the following pay day, I had to borrow a tenner from a chap at work to buy food. That's how close cut the purchase of Kudu was

Kudu wasn't home finished, and I know this because the hull is lined with a special material that requires a special process to apply, that was an optional extra at the factory. The material (which is a permanent covering) covers parts of the boat that would have certainly been left to the owner as part of a home finish kit.

Spray on Flok

 

[rwoofer]

Oh, don't worry - as I well know, people are still selling appalling built boats today. For those of you who don't know.

First I've seen of this and a pretty shocking story it is. I've also been burnt in the past by a dealer who actually did go bankrupt on me, but fortunately the manufacturer stepped in and resolved everything. I will only buy direct from manufacturers now, or if I'm forced to go to a dealer I will certainly be digging around much more to make sure I can't be left high and dry.

 

[nathanlee]

Spray on Flok

It's really hard to get flock off. Flocking rubbish, it is.

It does do wonders for condensation though, and if you don't believe me, flock yourself.

 

[OGITD]

Now-then!

Oh flock.... here we go!

Now-then now-then our-kid….. stop pickin on the little guy.

I have to admit that they do not sail the best….. but are definitely one of the best in their size for accommodation and being seakindly.

 

[Avocet]

The parts were paired for the first two or three years of productions, then they got good enough to make them interchangeable. It was and is an astonishing feat of production engineering - they made 1.5m DSes (mine may well be the last) and sold more in the last year of production than in any previous. What did for Citroen was two dreadful - in retrospect - engine decisions. The Maserati engine in the SM tuned out to have all the charm, flexibility and, alas, reliability one expects of high-powered Italian engines and the Wankel engined Birotor drank fuel and was hammered by the 1973 oil crisis.

Plus ça change, though - the development costs of the TA bankrupted Citroën in the thirties and they were bought by Michelin, who saw a huge market for radial tyres in front wheel drive cars.

I think the big jump in labour costs that happened round about the mid '70s also palyed a big part. Big Citroens (innovative though they undoubtedly were) were utter pigs to work on. (DS clutch anyone? worse still, a timing chain?!) The SM was even worse. Added to that, conventional cars really upped their game in terms of ride and refinement. True, none of them managed the Citroen "magic carpet" ride over big undulations, but the achilles heel of the big Citroens was the fact that the huge leverage ratios in their suspension linkages meant that they couldn't use rubber bushes, so noise and vibration were never up to the standards of the rest of the ride. They had a go with the CX at isolating the body from its chassis on rubber, but it wasn't entirely successful.

...and yes, their engines were always pretty rough! Few of their competitors had poxy 4-pot motors!

 

[Avocet]

I think I am right in saying that Citroen lost money on every D model they built. But made up on the small stuff. 2CV etc.
I also lost pressure on a D 20 special. First the steering got tough, then the brakes went and the suspension lowered to the bump stops (50kph max) We managed to figure out which hose had failed (return from left front suspension) and found a tractor mech. who was open. He had the fluid and a light, so we could fix the leak. Odd result was that it was several days before the brakes cleared the air. A touch resulted in a crash stop, ouch!
BTW, the foot/parking brake acted on the front discs, and was extremely effective.
As for QC, I had several occasions were I was told to 'slow down' to make the job worth it.
One was, I designed and built some fire places for a high end vila. The Arquitect(aplogeticly) asked me if I could help out with unloadng the clients containers. No prob. I turned up with my help.
The other help was 2 guys 'with a van' Brits. I was quickly told that this could be strung out for a couple of days. Sorry , I don't have that time spare. One of the 'Van guys' left after half an hour to do another job. But expected to be paid for this one.... The unloading lasted half a day ( with resistance) Bit depressing.
A

Odd that it was a return pipe. When they go, everything works normally (they just leak on your drive a bit) until the fluid level in the reservoir gets too low - then you get the symptoms you describe, but chucking another litre in the reservoir and bleeding the system would have sorted it until you could get the return fixed. I think your story highlights a lot of the reason for their poor reputation though. Clearly the tractor guy didn't know how to bleed the system, but it only takes a few seconds. I think there were a lot of things like that on big Citroens which got them a bad name undeservedly.

Interesting that two people think the handbrake was good. I always thought they were absolutely awful!

 

[Seajet]

In the mid-1980's, NATO basically stood over all it's nations' aircraft manufacturers and instituted a BIG standards programme ( I forget the title now ) - all panels for an aircraft type had to be interchangeable, and until proven so by the inspection departments, the panels weren't stamped passed fit for use.

Anyone who knows aircraft will realise this was not as simle as it first sounds; a lot of tweaking all around the 'landings' etc of the structure the panel was to fit to had to be done, right through the build process.

Up until then, even the most state of the art aircraft in terms of manufacture and equipment etc had all panels hand-filed to fit a certain aircraft, I still remember panels with a particular aircrafts' number written inside them.

When the first Sea Harrier was downed by ground fire in the Falklands ( XZ450 the 1st ever Sea Harrier, Lt.Nick Taylor killed at Goose Green ) when the Argentinian TV showed the wreckage we recognised my fathers' writing on a part.

To get to this level of standardisation, where any panel could fit that place on any aircraft, cost MANY millions ( which makes having non-standard ammunition even more stupid - D'oh ! ).