British boat builders. Rubbish!

Nathan & Bitman,

It should be pointed out that Newbridge bit the dust even during the small cruiser boom time, and Evolution only lasted a very short time.

Re. The latter, I respectfully suggest just looking at most of Everitt's designs should be a warning, let alone how they were bult !

For example, the E-Boat, probably his best-seller, has/ had a warning on the class website that the things can sink relatively easily ( and yes, I met a chap who'd happily sailed one across the Atlantic, his major complaint was that it was too beamy ).

I looked at an Evolution 25 once in the early 1980's, and was very keen to shut the hatch and make a sharp exit.

My own boat, an Anderson 22 is another slightly different example. Anderson Rigden & Perkins were an old ( 1917 ) firm, originally building traditional wooden boats, sail and power, some pretty large.

In the 1970's they decided to get into the booming grp small cruiser market; they ( and I ! ) were very lucky they decided to to Oliver Lee, a gifted but restrained designer, who had done a huge amount of experimenting with non-remote controlled racing model yachts - amounting to what would now be tank testing- and had designed the early Hunters first.

So the basic design was good, but there was still a cross-over from the yard's past; for instance the early rudders were secured by copper fastenings made at the yard, rather than reach for a bunch of 316 stainless, as would be the ( better ) norm nowadays.

Andersons went bust about 1982, because they still relied on a lucrative MOD contract to build warship launches etc ( when you see a Type 42 or quite possibly any RN warship go past, those are Anderson launches on the davits ) - when the contract was lost, they were stuffed.

It's hard to tell if Andersons would still be going if that hadn't happened, they had started to build the 26 which is now a sought after boat - about 12 were built - and the Anderson 22 was still selling well, but to be honest I doubt they could have weathered the recession/s.

They have a reputation of being well built boats, which is true, but as I run the Owners Association I can think of the odd example where some backing plates were missing, etc - quality control in those days depending on the individual, and whether he was on a good day or not, as well as the occasional ' I thought you'd done that ' simple error.

It's interesting that I now know the ex- Managing Director quite well, and he is fiercely attached to the boat; to the extent he was willing to put his own money into building new boats in the mid-2000's, ( he has the moulds ) but it proved too big a project for the 2 of us, as he is well into retirement age.

It should be borne in mind that all these boats mentioned in this thread were designed and built a long time ago, when there just wasn't the experience in small grp boats that there is now - Twister Ken made an excellent point, what would a 35 year old car be like now ?

Even a 'good' car of that age will need a great deal of work, and will have design features that simply wouldn't be considered on even the cheapest cars today; these boats were designed, maybe built, before Concorde first flew, and what's that up to nowadays !
 
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The wonderful thing is that he did all the carpentry patiently and properly with hand-tools (jackplane, panel-saw, hammer; no nail-guns or chop-saws for him) keeping to the spirit in which the cottage was originally built - and for no more money than the Bosch-boys would have charged!

.

Of course it took him 4 times as long as anyone else..... and as a consequence he went bust......
 
The problem is not British workers, but British management. Contrast the dodgy quality of the last British marques with the UK built Japanese cars.
 
Twister Ken made an excellent point, what would a 35 year old car be like now ?

Even a 'good' car of that age will need a great deal of work, and will have design features that simply wouldn't be considered on even the cheapest cars today...

My 1975 car has design features that simply aren't considered on even the most expensive cars these days. Citroën knew what they were doing.

On a slightly more germane note, this isn't really about ageing, is it? The carpness Nathan has discovered was carp the day the boat left the factory, and if it had been done properly in the first place then 35 years of sailing would have made no difference.
 
As the owner of an older boat, 1964 Nic 32, I accept that things will and do need replacing as the old girl requires. I suspect that when these older boats were built there was little thought that they would still be in existence many years later and in any case many of the materials and techniques used then were not as good as today (although some may have been better than today of course).

Boats are generally built of polyester resin and bonding of wooden panels, bulkheads etc can be expected to fail in adverse conditions over time as polyester is not an effective adhesive - which rather brings me to my point, Nathan, are you sure that the bonding you are unhappy about is actually original. I say this as the picture looks like woven glass tape for epoxy, not something which would have been used in the original build. Could it be that the original has failed in the past (read polyester not being an adhesive) and been badly replaced by a previous owner.

I have found this in several places in my own boat where over the years poor repairs have taken place which for various reasons could not have been original build and I have had to take them out and do them again.

I am not defending shoddy workmanship whether from an amateur owner or a "professional" doing a poor job although on balance in boats I have found generally worse standards of repair (some dangerous) are perpetrated by the amateur owner but this is generalisation as some amateurs do a better job than a yard would.
 
Many Sadlers were Home Fitted-Out to varying degrees of quality.
many of those who fitted them out were fitter-outers & not sailors

That is true, however this is a factory fitted out one. And IMO that's just plain shoddy.

And I imagine that even on the ones were fitted out by people at home the rudder would have been supplied already fitted.
 
Ceirwan,

I'm very surprised to see that on a pro' built Sadler; if it was done by the yard, it must have been a serious off-day !

I suggest another example of my point about earlier QA.

The 1981 Polish built, American designed Carter 30 I had was distinctly lacking in backing pads, and even worse nothing was accessible without some form of surgery to the inner mouldings, but that wasn't QA, as it was throughout the boat !

I doubt kit Sadlers were supplied with rudders fitted, as they're easily damaged in transport; it almost certainly would have been an optional extra to have it supplied fitted though, I'll see if I can find an old brochure.
 
I agree carp is carp as you put it, my point being that even Citroen have probably found ways to improve their QA in every part of the process since your car was made.

Citroën were making the hydraulic suspension components - which have no seals and rely on good fit - to 1 micron manufacturing tolerance in the later 50s.
 
Ubergeekian,

You could have chosen a better example I fear ! The hydraulics are notoriously unreliable on old Citroens, so you're either brave or previously well off before you bought it !

And judging by the programme I saw on restoring one ( I have no hands-on experience with them, plenty of people I know have ) not so brilliantly designed at this vintage after all; lose the hydraulics, you lose the suspension - well, just about acceptable, - losing steering and brakes at the same time seems a bit too much wear and tear on the sense of humour...
 
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Interesting to note the lack of anyone mentioning the biggest(?) of the British boatbuilders from a similar era dealing to a great deal in the home completion market. Hunter.

As someone looking to buy a boat of the size and age being discussed, I've been paying a lot of attention to such matters, and despite often looking almost bodged in the fitting, and not exactly loaded with glitzy fittings, the Hunters almost always appear very solid and workmanlike- although am unsure of the backs to chainplates. Sailed a few and been impressed too.

Newbridge though, I noticed how flimsy much of their fitting was at the Earls Court show in the early eighties, when I'd've been under 15! I did like the skewed cutaway drawings they did though; made the craft look interesting.

As for British workmen, I've noticed much the same attitudes in the offshore world. Perhaps to refer to observation of national traits, I'd escape guilt over reverse-nationalism...

And thanks for the comments on Evolutions, I'd been struggling to rule out their pretty, sportiness, despite every one of them I look at being covered in cracks and other issues.
 
plenty of people I know have ) not so brilliantly designed at this vintage after all; lose the hydraulics, you lose the suspension - well, just about acceptable, - losing steering and brakes at the same time seems a bit too much wear and tear on the sense of humour..

You beat me to it! My father used to autobahn it down to the Alps with us in his 2.5 TD citroen every winter, and every other winter we'd be parked up somewhere involuntarily. Luckily you don't lose steering entirely - just power steering, so you can still recover from it at 200 kmh - although it does get very bumpy without suspension :D

Although UK manufacturing is not held in the highest esteem when it comes to houses or cars, I do feel the low production numbers and the fact that QA had not arrived in the Western world by that time does probably account for some of your problems, such as the -questionable- forestay attachment without backing plate.

As you point out, the hull is fine - are you sure the floorboards need to be that firmly attached, as its not really a structural feature?
 
You could have chosen a better example I fear ! The hydraulics are notoriously unreliable on old Citroens, so you're either brave or previously well off before you bought it !

You have been misled. The hydraulics on the DS are remarkably reliable and require very little more maintenance than a spring-and-damper system.

And judging by the programme I saw on restoring one ( I have no hands-on experience with them, plenty of people I know have ) not so brilliantly designed at this vintage after all; lose the hydraulics, you lose the suspension - well, just about acceptable, - losing steering and brakes at the same time seems a bit too much wear and tear on the sense of humour...

You don't lose them like that, though, thanks to the vanne de priorité which decides where to use the pressure. First call is the brake reservoir, and when that's charged the steering and gearchange (semi-automatic) is pressurise, then the suspension. If you lose supply pressure the suspension will stay up for hours (and runs the back brakes, so you still have those), the steering has a rather heavy manual override and the brake reservoir contains enough for seven full applications - and a lot more gentle ones - before you run out of oomph there. Even then there is an emergency manual / parking brake which is as good as the standard brakes on many cars of the time.

The only really unfortunate hydraulic design feature was on the early cars. The ID was a simplified version with hydraulic suspension only and everything else conventional. As a safety measure, though, there was a an interconnect in the braking circuit - if you really wellied the brake pedal, full pressure fluid from the suspension circuit was fed into the brake circuit as an emergency assist. Unfortunately, the valve which did this tended to rust and when called into service - very infrequently - would jam open, resulting in the entire contents of the suspension hydraulic system being forced into the brake system, blowing the top off the reservoir and spraying the whole front half of the car with brake fluid. Paint stripping glycol brake fluid. Th efeature was soon removed.

Oops, what a digression. Basic message: complicated doesn't have to mean unreliable, if designed and maintained properly.
 
About twenty years ago when I lusted after a larger boat than the one I had and Colvics seemed to have a decent reputation there was a Countess 33 that moored on the same moorings as me in N Wales. Although this bay (clue) was well known for being a bit rough on boat keels this boat was in a particularly sheltered spot and I was stunned one day to see this boat on its side and one of the twin keels had broken off and was folded under the hull. There had been no rough weather at all.
Later when the boat and the keel had been fielded to Dickies boatyard I had the opportunity to look at both the keel and the hull where it had parted and not only was it criminally thin, perhaps 2/3 layers of GRP matting plus gelcoat but the matting had not been saturated properly and was dry in places. I could not believe how badly this hull had been laminated at the moulders. As far as I can gather the keel was re-bonded to the hull but not sure whether the other keel was re-enforced.
I saw the boat some years later in a boatyard in Ireland and wondered whether the new owners knew about the history of the boat which had been renamed.
Although I am sure there are lots of Colvics built like the proverbial brick outhouses I cooled on the idea of buying a Colvic but it did have the effect of making me not make assumptions about hull thickness and integrity when looking at other boats.
 
A friend of mine was called in, a few years ago, to investigate why a Well Known Prestige British Car Maker was having significant problems with quality control on body panel fit.

It took him a couple of days to find that it was well established night shift custom to get one body shell through quality control, then keep it to one side and measure it again every time they finished another one ... finished another one with slightly less enthusiasm and attention to detail.

They could get away with it because management was far too important and bone bloody idle every to visit the factory at night.
Hmmm, an insight inside a bleeding hearts brain as to why the car industry went down the swannee. It was managements fault! Nothing to do with the bone idle workers, well they soon smelt the coffee didnt they!
Stu
 
Hmmm, an insight inside a bleeding hearts brain

Could we leave the weak personal attacks out of this?

as to why the car industry went down the swannee. It was managements fault! Nothing to do with the bone idle workers, well they soon smelt the coffee didnt they!

It was the fault of both sides, clearly, in different ways. The workforce were causing the problem and management, if they had bothered to visit the night shift, could have solved it.

What really condemned much of British industry was the us-and-them attitude on both sides.
 
It was the fault of both sides, clearly, in different ways. The workforce were causing the problem and management, if they had bothered to visit the night shift, could have solved it.

What really condemned much of British industry was the us-and-them attitude on both sides.

The historical perspective on manufacturing practices seems far more appropriate than mutual fingerpointing. US car manufacturers were affected by the exact same problems as many other western branches of industry, and were forced to improve quality by the high standards of Japanese production.
 
Catalac08,

After the carnage of the october '87 hurricane around my way - hundreds of boats trashed, if afloat blown off moorings, if ashore blown over like domino's, there were a lot of 'interesting' sights.

I remember a Moody, think it was a 27, with one of twin keels torn off; the grp was frighteningly thin - my chum, a lifelong sailor and aircraft designer, nearly died on seeing it.

Lots of things like that, no matter where built; and another big worry was the sudden blooming of 'grp repair specialists', some of whom weren't too fussy about the angle twin keels went back on, for instance !

Always thought I'd be very wary buying a pre-87 boat...
 
i have worked in the boat building & repair industry since i left college in 1979, i have worked at quite a few yards & factories so have quite a bit of experience.
Thames marine builders of the Snapdragons & Mirages were pretty good, the thing was if you ordered a boat it was a lottery as to which assembly team put it together, because there was a very good bonus scheme there was plenty of incentive o get the boats out the door.
Unfortunately some went out rather quickerthan was required to do a good job.
Fortunately the management used to test them in a tank with hoses.
This meant that the iffy ones leaky seacocks & windows etc were found &then had to be put right by the team that built it,(not on bonus).
A catamaran builder i worked at for a while had drawings literally half in metric & half in imperial, of two boat built side by side one came out 2 tons heavier simply because the slapdash crew used way more resin & gelcoat in its assembly than the better finished one next to it, quality control seemed to be completely absent!
Im now on my own & trade on my reputation. It takes a long time to gain a good one but not long to lose it!
 
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