British boat builders. Rubbish!

You've lived on a Newbridge built boat for 3 years and only just discovered they were cra* ?!

Their boats were well known for rudders falling off, and other snags; I seem to remember there was a revolt by extremely p'd off owners left with unfinished boats when the firm caved in without letting anyone know ? - pretty sure the boats were finished under some sort of co-operative but can't remember the details.

Someone will be along in a sec' to say a Virgo Voyager is faster, more seaworthy and better built than a Swan; I base my remarkably low opinion of them on the experience of trying to slow down enough for it to keep up, F3 sunny day, him on full genoa & main + engine flat out, us on deliberately reduced sail to working jib & main, & we still got bored of going in circles.

Still in it's defence, when this was discussed before someone whose opinion I would value reckoned they're fine offshore...

Not all British boats are rubbish, and I've seen plenty of foreign junk; once had an American designed, Polish built boat, which showed distinct signs of falling apart !

I'm entering my 33rd year on my British boat - I've had other cruisers, and racing dinghies, as well in the meantime but I wouldn't swap her for anything - if I won the lottery I may well have other boats too, but no way would I turn my back again on a boat which has done so much for me.

I'm not saying what she is, other than British, as that's not the focus of the thread.

Still, look on the bright side, you'll be red-hot on DIY from now on !
 
Seajet said:
You've lived on a Newbridge built boat for 3 years and only just discovered they were cra* ?!

Their boats were well known for rudders falling off, and other snags; I seem to remember there was a revolt by extremely p'd off owners left with unfinished boats when the firm caved in without letting anyone know ? - pretty sure the boats were finished under some sort of co-operative but can't remember the details.
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The rudders falling off Corribee's was a stupid design flaw. It has been sorted on this boat.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that Newbridge boats are carp, per se, because this boat, at least, has a very well made hull. It just seems that the department the the hull went to for finishing was entirely poor at what they did.

Not to worry, when I've finished she will be sound, and as I mentioned, the design itself is well proven, and at least by me, well loved.

Still, next stop is Northshore. I've got a Vancouver 28 with my name on it... well, maybe one day.
 
You are right about incompetent and lazy staff. Not all of them or even a majority, but enough of a minority to damage the businesses they work for.

I found this when working for a big manufacturer. Our German competitors could rely on their staff doing their best to make a good product. We could rely on most of our staff doing their best to cut corners whether it be bypassing safety gear or altering pre set processes or simply working at half pace because that was the agreed output rate on the shop floor.

The sad thing is that it was a shop floor culture thing - brothers and sisters of the shop floor guys working on staff at often less than half the pay rate were conscientious and loyal employees. Again with the odd exception of course. But the guys coming from school to a shop floor job were soon brought into line by their fellow workers even to the extent of having work or machines sabotaged if they didnt toe the line. They were fighting the class war and in the case of many older workers fighting for the chance to be made redundant.

P.S. Your boat has lasted 35 years. Thats not bad at all - you cant expect it to last forever.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
I found this when working for a big manufacturer. Our German competitors could rely on their staff doing their best to make a good product. We could rely on most of our staff doing their best to cut corners whether it be bypassing safety gear or altering pre set processes or simply working at half pace because that was the agreed output rate on the shop floor.
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A friend of mine was called in, a few years ago, to investigate why a Well Known Prestige British Car Maker was having significant problems with quality control on body panel fit.

It took him a couple of days to find that it was well established night shift custom to get one body shell through quality control, then keep it to one side and measure it again every time they finished another one ... finished another one with slightly less enthusiasm and attention to detail.

They could get away with it because management was far too important and bone bloody idle every to visit the factory at night.
 
I've seen that sort of thing too, but I've also seen some downright dangerously sneaky bodges coming from a top American aircraft manufacturer.

There is the old story, hopefully true, of a well known expensive German car manufacturer.

One of their UK imports kept being returned by the disgruntled owner because of 'an annoying little rattle'.

The workshop guys could find nothing, but the car kept coming back until it became an issue; in desperation the car was totally stripped.

Inside one of the pressed steel contour bays, well hidden even with lining removed, they found a nut hanging by a steel line, tied to a bit of structure, and written by it in German, " Those English *******s will never find this ! "
 
I'm quite ashamed to say this, (and sorry if I offend someone, but this is based on personal opinion and experience) having worked in the construction industry for many years, quality control and site safety has always been a problem on a typical site. When the influx of Eastern Europeans came into the country a few years ago, output and quality became significantly better. The difference between the average UK born 'craftsman' and an Eastern European were absolutely miles apart, the latter having significantly better training and skills, conscientiousness and above all pride in their work.

I know who I'd rather employ if I was to have my own house built!
 
Seajet said:
...
Inside one of the pressed steel contour bays, well hidden even with lining removed, they found a nut hanging by a steel line, tied to a bit of structure, and written by it in German, " Those English *******s will never find this ! "
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Probably apocraphal, but still hilariously funny!

Re other posts on Nathan's boatbuilding disenchantments, the 1970s was a pretty appalling time for industry - a decade marred by an exhaustion of often lazy old-school management flogging itself against misguided militant unionism, a 'radical' culture still hungover from the '60s, a fresh generation of nihilistic youngsters (expressing itself through Punk) and a quietly dispairing middle-class. What changed with Thatcherism is still controversial, but not only did it rip through the whole militancy thing, it also sent a rocket up the backside of the business community.

As to cultural stereotypes, it is said that the most important board member of American manufacturing companies is the marketing director, in British companies its the accounts director, and in German ones the engineering director!

Babs

PS Nathan, order your Vancouver 28 from Northshore before they drop everything except Southerlies.
 
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Agreed!

I completely agree, the first photo is the bolts of one of the pushpit bases:
IMAG0348.jpg


No backing pad, and one of the washers half on and half off the hull-deck join!

The next two are the bolts for the rudder pintles... No backing pads, just some penny washers, pretty shabby IMO.

IMAG0347.jpg
IMAG0346.jpg


This is on a Sadler 25, a boat with a reputation for being well built and sea-worthy!
 
The craftsman's pride

seanfoster said:
I'm quite ashamed to say this, (and sorry if I offend someone, but this is based on personal opinion and experience) having worked in the construction industry for many years, quality control and site safety has always been a problem on a typical site. When the influx of Eastern Europeans came into the country a few years ago, output and quality became significantly better. The difference between the average UK born 'craftsman' and an Eastern European were absolutely miles apart, the latter having significantly better training and skills, conscientiousness and above all pride in their work.

I know who I'd rather employ if I was to have my own house built!
Click to expand...

I'd wholeheartedly agree with this - my brother has just had his new (to him) terraced house in London ripped out and completely renewed by a team of Polish builders. The quality of work is excellent and in they came in exactly on time, including working right through Christmas to finish the job by deadline.

Having said that, when I had to do the same a few years to my (new to me) very old and perpetually bodged cottage here in the sticks, my builder was a guy from the next village with his trusty team of experienced trades. I knew he was the right man for us when, on first slowly exploring the house, he rested his hand on the chimney-breast and said softly "You poor old girl, you've really been knocked about..."

The wonderful thing is that he did all the carpentry patiently and properly with hand-tools (jackplane, panel-saw, hammer; no nail-guns or chop-saws for him) keeping to the spirit in which the cottage was originally built - and for no more money than the Bosch-boys would have charged!

Its in the soul and pride of good men.
 
Look at it this way Nathan; if the boat was built in 1976 it has lasted 34 years before you found the loose ballast and the bodged fixing of the floors. That shows that the faults were not critical, and you can now put them right and congratulate yourself that the boat will be better than ever.
 
Babylon said:
I'd wholeheartedly agree with this - my brother has just had his new (to him) terraced house in London ripped out and completely renewed by a team of Polish builders. The quality of work is excellent and in they came in exactly on time, including working right through Christmas to finish the job by deadline.

Having said that, when I had to do the same a few years to my (new to me) very old and perpetually bodged cottage here in the sticks, my builder was a guy from the next village with his trusty team of experienced trades. I knew he was the right man for us when, on first slowly exploring the house, he rested his hand on the chimney-breast and said softly "You poor old girl, you've really been knocked about..."

The wonderful thing is that he did all the carpentry patiently and properly with hand-tools (jackplane, panel-saw, hammer; no nail-guns or chop-saws for him) keeping to the spirit in which the cottage was originally built - and for no more money than the Bosch-boys would have charged!

Its in the soul and pride of good men.
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Sorry to hi-jack your thread Nathan!
There still are plenty of skilled conscientious craftsmen, albeit few and far between, but on large sites, it's usually a case of in and out for as much money as quickly as possible!
 
Norman_E said:
Look at it this way Nathan; if the boat was built in 1976 it has lasted 34 years before you found the loose ballast and the bodged fixing of the floors. That shows that the faults were not critical, and you can now put them right and congratulate yourself that the boat will be better than ever.
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C'mon Nathan, imagine it was a 35 year cheap car. What state would that be in? It would have been recycled twice and by now would be beer caps.
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I know. I'm not falling out with my boat. I'll make everything right, but I was a bit peeved at the people who let it out of the factory like that in the first place. More so in the case of the Cinder I had. Bulkheads were fitted in a similar manner with unwetted roving. It's jolly well dangerous.

Beyond the fact that I've found these (I had spotted it a while back, but didn't suspect it was as bad as it actually is), it was more an opinion of attitudes. I can't abide the "oh sod it, that'll do" attitude, not to that extent anyway.

From the look of it, I'm guessing the resin had started to go off, and rather than mix a fresh pot, the chap just splodged the gel over the roving and buggered off home. There's cutting the odd corner, and then there's blatantly not giving a toss, and it's the latter that vexed me.


Still, you're right. The boat has done over 30 years of sailing to date, and she's definitely got more left in her.
 
Flooring

Suppose it lets you check the hull from the inside without destroying the boat getting the floor out :eek:

Suppose you could be saying I wanted to check the inside of the hull and would you believe it I had to saw up most of it just to have a look :rolleyes:

When you refit it make it just strong enough to last 30 years so the next guy can have a look as well ;)

Happy Sailing :)
 
seanfoster said:
Sorry to hi-jack your thread Nathan!
There still are plenty of skilled conscientious craftsmen, albeit few and far between, but on large sites, it's usually a case of in and out for as much money as quickly as possible!
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Don't worry, it's not hi-jacking since it's along the lines of what I was ranting about.

Through experience and seeing their work, if I want some stainless fabricating, I know who to go to. I know I can go to one of a few people and that they won't just build what I say, but understand what it's for, and build it properly. I also know that if I spotted a fault, they would be horrified that they didn't meet their own standards, and put it right.

I know lots of (British) people in lots of different trades that this could apply to. People who are incredibly passionate about their job, and so even on a lazy day when they want to go home, the standard of their work is entirely good enough.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of inept people. So much so, that asking an organisation, as opposed to an individual, to do something, is rather risky. As has been mentioned, it comes down to the people with the vested interest in their company's name being on the factory floor and checking that they are happy with putting said name to what's being produced. If this process fails (or management cares not about their name), then you get poor quality workmanship. Apparently this happened at Newbridge.
 
Quality Control

This is a fascinating field. QC meaning "no stuff ups" In other words the customer gets exactly what he expects. Management know that they are delivering exactly what they and the customer expect.

It starts with the culture of the workers. However it is also dependent on systems of inspection and finally of systems of feedback on QC failures. The trick with QC is to devise systems and get a culture which gives the best QC at minimum cost. However of course bad QC costs hugely in bad reputation and warranty repairs. So money must be invested to get a good return.

It is interesting that stating with Japan after WW2 it is the manufacturing under dogs that have seen the need to get a name as manufacturers with good QC. This perhaps starting from the fact that workers were grateful to have a job. Further they all were supportive of getting the company to prosper. So this QC driving force has emerged with every developing under dog nation through Korea now China and of course through the eastern European nations.
By contrast it is a bit inevitable that the prosperous or well established manufacturing nations have workers that take their job and company for granted. England and USA (and Australia) are in this category. English and US manufacturers are getting wake up calls especially in this financial climate. Unfortunately things have to get much worse before they get better. (Australian manufacturing has long gone to Asia)

The next problem is with boat building. Fibreglass boat building has never been (and certainly not in the early days) seen as a craftsman's role. It was by nature slap dash smelly and dirty. So there never was the mystique of the precision crafts man of wooden boat building. Not that that is an excuse just a background cause. Fortunately now (at least here) a youth can get an apprenticeship as a boat builder which involves f/g mechanics and all the other things and not so much wood work.
Further boat building companies were small so less through put so almost every boat was like a prototype and the companies didn't have the resources or feel the need for QA systems and QA culture was up to the worker. And that is without starting on the QA culture of design.

So a combination of factors leaves Nathan grumpy. I can't see any fix or way of coping except to check and make good yourself. I think it was in Francis Chichester's book about a solo circumnavigation that he spent the first half of the book complaining about the workmanship of the yard who built the boat specially for him. (a wooden boat but it was systems that failed.) So nothing has changed much in 50 years. good luck olewill
 
Ceirwan said:
I completely agree, the first photo is the bolts of one of the pushpit bases:
IMAG0348.jpg


No backing pad, and one of the washers half on and half off the hull-deck join!

The next two are the bolts for the rudder pintles... No backing pads, just some penny washers, pretty shabby IMO.

IMAG0347.jpg
IMAG0346.jpg


This is on a Sadler 25, a boat with a reputation for being well built and sea-worthy!
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Many Sadlers were Home Fitted-Out to varying degrees of quality.
many of those who fitted them out were fitter-outers & not sailors
 
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