Bravado and b/s on SB - dangerous or not?

webcraft said:
RYA instructors generally have a wide breadth and depth of experience, and few of them have floors that need a lot of wiping. Just teaching others to sail tends to make you look increasingly critically at your own practices.
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Not always.. Sometimes it gives said teacher a belief that their word is gospel.

Course routes can also end up being most beneficial to those profiting from supplying the courses. The RYA route also seems to have sufficient courses to cost the pupil a small fortune to complete them all. Would they definitely be a brilliant sailor as a result? Maybe / Maybe not.

Regarding the merits of training... I've already explained the balance.
 
webcraft said:
I just wondered what impression this made on newcomers to our sport who are browsing these pages looking for sensible information. Perhaps there is someone like this lurking who would care to contribute?

- W
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Same as most other routes for info. Some know nothing, Some know a lot, and some think they know everything :)
 
RYA vs blood, sweat and tears...

Fire99 said:
Absolutely.

RYA training is the same. Get a good instructor / teacher and back it up with lots of practical experience, then it can be a real bonus. (I've certainly learnt enough from them)

However, there is no substitute for experience and there are a cazillion sailors out there who could wipe the floor of many fully qualified RYA instructors, who have never been anywhere near a training centre.
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Couldn't agree more, on both points.

However, how does one get experience unless they sail? And how many people are able to sail unless they (a) own their own boat, (b) belong to a club and learn from the 'seabed up' as crew, (c) know someone with a boat who would take them sailing to learn by osmosis, or (d) go through an official training route such as that provided by the RYA?

Sailing is like learning to drive. One could just jump on a yacht and sail off for the day if someone would lend it to them, or they could just jump in with both feet and buy one. Clearly this would be unwise for a complete novice, as would driving a car without any driving lessons. Would someone lend their yacht to a person who had never been on the water before??? I suspect not. The 'driving test' gets you to a minimum standard after which the real learning begins.

RYA training is, in my opinion, extremely useful to those who are relatively new to sailing as a good way to give people the basics they need to sail as crew, and as a skipper without any 'old hands' aboard.

Is it perfect? Probably not.

Will it make you as good a sailor as someone who learned the 'hard way'? Maybe not.

Does it afford 'landlubbers' the opportunity to gain experience and confidence with which to embrace a wonderful pastime, or even begin a career in sailing - Yes.

You don't need to go through Comp Crew and Day Skipper to get to Yachtmaster if you can get the 2500 miles up another way. Unfortunately as most charter companies will not let you take a boat out without either a DS qualification or a full logbook as evidence, and as many people do not belong to a club or have yachtie friends to learn with, the RYA is the only viable route to sailing.

The quality of instruction is clearly a concern (take Hot Liquid as an example) but in the absence of other options how else does one take to the water with confidence? I suspect that RYA training is like Marmite - you either love it or hate it...;)

It would be interesting to know the level of training undertaken and the competency/experience of sailors who have had 'incidents' at sea...I am an engineer so I like this kind of thing :D

Does the RNLI (or other agencies) capture data of this kind? Is there a correlation between the rates of sailing incidents and the level of training and/or experience?
 
On the whole I think discussion is a good thing - it enables people to look at both sides of the argument and make their own mind up.

The area I do find of concern are the "Colregs don't apply to me" posts - particularly those people who seem to take pride in not knowing or wilfully ignoring the rules.
 
AMCD300 said:
Good Stuff
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Totally agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking RYA courses. There is a danger (especially on the internet) for opinion to be either 100% one way or 100% the other.

The truth is often somewhere in the middle.

My point is that RYA training is neither vital nor pointless, and it's down to the individual to decide what, and to what degree, works for them.
 
AMCD300 said:
It would be interesting to know the level of training undertaken and the competency/experience of sailors who have had 'incidents' at sea...I am an engineer so I like this kind of thing :D

Does the RNLI (or other agencies) capture data of this kind? Is there a correlation between the rates of sailing incidents and the level of training and/or experience?
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The MAIB tend to give full chapter and verse on the qualifications and experience of those involved in the "incidents" they report.

An example from one of the MAIB reports on Liquid Vortex's shenanigans ...
The skipper was 40 years of age and had held a Royal Yachting Association (RYA) Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence (CoC) since 1990. The certificate was not commercially endorsed. The skipper had worked in the marine industry for a number of years and had gained several thousand miles of yacht racing and cruising experience. He was competitive and expected the best from his boats and their crews.
The mate was 43 years of age and had held an RYA Yachtmaster Offshore CoC since 2010. The certificate was not commercially endorsed. The mate’s RYA logbook indicated that he had sailed 3000 miles as crew or skipper. He was trained in emergency life support, a qualification he had gained through his occupation ashore.
The crew’s previous sailing experience varied and their certification ranged from RYA Day Skipper to RYA Yachtmaster Offshore. The injured woman was French, but spoke good English. She had held an RYA Competent Crew certificate since 2010, and had qualified as a Day Skipper in early 2011.
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Fire99 said:
Totally agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking RYA courses. There is a danger (especially on the internet) for opinion to be either 100% one way or 100% the other.

The truth is often somewhere in the middle.

My point is that RYA training is neither vital nor pointless, and it's down to the individual to decide what, and to what degree, works for them.
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I think we vehemently agree :D
 
one point about instructors that some peeps dont seem to understand,is that thay dont have to be the best sailors in the world.but be able to teach.get their point across to a broad section of peeps,not blow up to often,be informative.and versatile and have lots and lots of patience
 
rib said:
one point about instructors that some peeps dont seem to understand,is that thay dont have to be the best sailors in the world.but be able to teach.get their point across to a broad section of peeps,not blow up to often,be informative.and versatile and have lots and lots of patience
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Nerves of steel, you mean! :eek:

Fire99 said:
This is the internet. We're not allowed to agree. :D
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I agree.....D'OH :D
 
rib said:
one point about instructors that some peeps dont seem to understand,is that thay dont have to be the best sailors in the world.but be able to teach.get their point across to a broad section of peeps,not blow up to often,be informative.and versatile and have lots and lots of patience
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This is a very valid point. You can be the most experienced, skilled sailor in the world and be utterly useless as a teacher. Being able to do something does not qutomatically confer an ability to teach it.

I don't think my sailing ability is anything out of the ordinary, but I do have the ability to teach relative novices to sail and skipper safely and confidentally. In this respect I believe RYA courses have a very valid role to play.

The 'it's a money-making scam' conspiracy theory is nonsense. Certainly instructors don't do it for money . . . when you consider that they are on duty 24 hours a day most are working for considerably less than minimum wage.

FWIW, for anyone interested in training because they intend to sail then I would suggest that after a couple of trips with friends and a bit of dinghy sailing then DS theory followed by DS practical are the only courses you will need. If you want to sit your YM later then that is up to you. The total cost of these two courses is less than many people spend learning to drive.


- W
 
rib said:
one point about instructors that some peeps dont seem to understand,is that thay dont have to be the best sailors in the world.but be able to teach.get their point across to a broad section of peeps,not blow up to often,be informative.and versatile and have lots and lots of patience
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Well you know the old phrase "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach" :D
 
webcraft said:
The 'it's a money-making scam' conspiracy theory is nonsense. Certainly instructors don't do it for money . . . when you consider that they are on duty 24 hours a day most are working for considerably less than minimum wage.
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You do like to pull the trigger a bit quick don't you? 'Sod ready and aim, let's go straight with fire'

My point was (again) that the syllabus within training organisations often elongates and you end up with further and further courses for the pupil to take before they are 'fully' qualified.

It has no reflection on the instructors one bit. I've met enough that don't make a whole lot from it.
 
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