Bowline or not ?

[johnalison]

I never had a problem with forming a bowline until somebody told me this rubbish about rabbits and trees Now I get confused where the rabbit is supposed to go, and by the time I've got the rabbit going the right way (or is it the left way?) down his hole (or is it up the hole?) the boat's drifted back out again and is hitting things!

For me mnemonics are worse than spell checkers.

Me too. I can never remember the mnemonics.

 

[38mess]

I can tie a bowline with one hand, have been able to since I was 10 . Sorry for the boast but I think everyone should be able to do this.

 

[RichardS]

I can tie a bowline with one hand, have been able to since I was 10 . Sorry for the boast but I think everyone should be able to do this.

I can barely tie a bowline with two hands .... but I also think that everyone should be able to do this.

Richard

 

[38mess]

I can barely tie a bowline with two hands .... but I also think that everyone should be able to do this.

Richard

My dad who was a fisherman wouldn't take me out until I could do this, his reasoning was if you fall overboard you can tie it without sinking, or something like that

 

[GHA]

Some load testing -
What is the strongest sailing knot?
https://web.archive.org/web/20160318230212/http://www.bethandevans.com/load.htm

 

[KompetentKrew]

I wonder how many people have been sat at home with a piece of rope...

This thread makes perfect sense to me because I wondered a few weeks ago whether the bitter end should be on the inside or the outside, and decided it was neater on the outside. Thus I have recently been tying bowlines "cowboy" or "dutch" style.

The rabbit round the tree made no sense at all to me because, unless I'm missing something, it doesn't tell you which way the hole is made nor which way around the tree the rabbit runs. I was quite dyslexic about the bowline for months (I would say most of 2018), but am now finding that I tie it intuitively.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Referring to that bible of knots, The Ashley Book of Knots, if you tie it so that the end lies inside the bowline loop, it is a 'Right Hand Bowline'. If the end lies outside the loop it's a 'Left Hand Bowline'. According to Ashley the Left Hand Bowline is "distinctly inferior", so take note!

(Ref 1010 and 1034½ in The Ashley Book of Knots.)

I had to look it up, so to save anyone else doing so, there's a smidgen more info at wikipedia:

Secure sheet bend	Insecure (left-hand sheet bend)

No doubt I've always tied my sheet bends the wrong way round, too!

 

[johnalison]

I think that there must be two kinds of people. One half sees knot-tying as a process, remembereing the actions required. Others, like me, imagine the knot in three dimensions and try to replicate it. This may be why I am hopeless at teaching people such tasks.

 

[PilotWolf]

This thread makes perfect sense to me because I wondered a few weeks ago whether the bitter end should be on the inside or the outside, and decided it was neater on the outside. Thus I have recently been tying bowlines "cowboy" or "dutch" style.

The rabbit round the tree made no sense at all to me because, unless I'm missing something, it doesn't tell you which way the hole is made nor which way around the tree the rabbit runs. I was quite dyslexic about the bowline for months (I would say most of 2018), but am now finding that I tie it intuitively.

I don’t disagree But I’ve always ‘just’ tied them and not thought about if the bitter end is inside or out.

But the inquisitive minds might be trying both ways.

It was always a bug bear if mine that when training new crew we didn’t give them a couple of lengths of rope to practise with.

W.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I think that there must be two kinds of people. One half sees knot-tying as a process, remembereing the actions required. Others, like me, imagine the knot in three dimensions and try to replicate it. This may be why I am hopeless at teaching people such tasks.

Keep a bit of line by your chair when you're watching TV, and tie a bowline repeatedly. Quite quickly you'll discover the third way to remember knots: muscle memory, like playing an instrument or tying your shoe laces.

I remember trying to teach someone my quick way of tying a bowline, and she just couldn't get it because she was left-handed: when she watched me it looked like a conjuring trick to her. Then I had an idea: instead of watching me do it we found a mirror, and she copied my reflection instead. She got it immediately.

 

[RichardS]

This thread makes perfect sense to me because I wondered a few weeks ago whether the bitter end should be on the inside or the outside, and decided it was neater on the outside. Thus I have recently been tying bowlines "cowboy" or "dutch" style.

The rabbit round the tree made no sense at all to me because, unless I'm missing something, it doesn't tell you which way the hole is made nor which way around the tree the rabbit runs. I was quite dyslexic about the bowline for months (I would say most of 2018), but am now finding that I tie it intuitively.

This has always confused me .... until someone told me on here that the rabbit has to run through the hole from the side next to the tree.

Richard

 

[TernVI]

There is an alternative mnemonic.
Take the rabbit n your left hand
Shove the rope up its bum, around its neck, down its throat and strangle the bugger.
Or something...

The one-handed, twist the standing part over the bitter end method may actually be easier, particularly tying a loop around your waist.

 

[lustyd]

Did you read and understand the rest of my post lardhead?

Was there really any need for that? My point, that you seem too stupid to have noticed, is that the knot itself is identical and holds in exactly the same way on both of these knots. The fact that you think the presence of a loop changes anything whatsoever in the way this single knot hold says more about the way your tiny brain learns by rote than it says about me.

 

[lustyd]

I think that there must be two kinds of people. One half sees knot-tying as a process, remembereing the actions required. Others, like me, imagine the knot in three dimensions and try to replicate it. This may be why I am hopeless at teaching people such tasks.

My mind works the same. Knowing the structure of the knot rather than just how it's tied will enable you to understand more deeply how it works and spot any weaknesses. It's also the reason I can teach someone a bend and a knot in one go - people remember the Bowline better if you show them why it's actually just a sheet bend.

 

[johnalison]

Keep a bit of line by your chair when you're watching TV, and tie a bowline repeatedly. Quite quickly you'll discover the third way to remember knots: muscle memory, like playing an instrument or tying your shoe laces.

I remember trying to teach someone my quick way of tying a bowline, and she just couldn't get it because she was left-handed: when she watched me it looked like a conjuring trick to her. Then I had an idea: instead of watching me do it we found a mirror, and she copied my reflection instead. She got it immediately.

My only successful tuition was when our daughter was a medical student. I took it upon myself to teach her the surgical one-hand tie in our saloon (not the 'surgeon's knot', which is different). I equipped her with some whipping twine and made her wear washing-up gloves, to prepare her for her forthcoming dressership.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

End outside loop is better for slipping over cleats as end out of the way and loop snugger. End inside loop looks neater and cant catch on anything - I use this for attaching risers to ground mooring lines but probably make no real difference.

 

[TernVI]

Was there really any need for that? My point, that you seem too stupid to have noticed, is that the knot itself is identical and holds in exactly the same way on both of these knots. The fact that you think the presence of a loop changes anything whatsoever in the way this single knot hold says more about the way your tiny brain learns by rote than it says about me.

Do you really not get that having the load on 3 ends rather than 2 makes an immense difference?
The insecure sheetbend is made secure partly by the wrond 'end' having no load on it.
The load is also alligned differently. While the sheetbend contains the same elements as a bowline, you can't load a bowline with the 'sheetbend' parts of it in a straight line.
Even the RH sheetbend is regarded as insecure, where as the bowline is generally regarded as resistant to shaking undone.
Sheetbends are at their best with dissimilar ropes, a bowline is one rope.
Sheetbends are also sometimes regarded as being prone to jamming in some rope, a bowline not generally so.

A dutch Bowline is a perfectly sound knot, a LH Sheetbend is not generally regarded as such.

It was you who started with the abuse.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Here is a real sailor making a real bowline real fast!

 

[RichardS]

It was you who started with the abuse.

Where was that, exactly?

Richard

 

[lustyd]

Yes news to me too. Still not getting the point either so I’ll just give up. Pretty sure everyone else read it and understood it so I don’t mind one outlier