Boatyard quality of work / payment dispute

[pandos]

It's reminiscent of the pepipoo motoring forums, which are full of unqualified people urging others to try all sorts of strange defences, up to and including perjury, to motoring charges. While some of it may simply be stupidity, I fear that there are posters who actively enjoy encouraging people to dig themselves into deep holes.

Would not necessary agree with the last sentence, but there are plainly those giving out advice here who do not understand the law or the situation. OP should get proper paid for Legal advice that he can rely on, what he should not do is pick his favorite piece from this thread and follow it.

Interesting that some advocate following advice of others rather than adding their own twopence worth, and seemingly labeling those whose they do not agree with as "Barrack room Lawyers chucking their strange ideas in."

Still no feedback from OP.!!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Would not necessary agree with the last sentence, but there are plainly those giving out advice here who do not understand the law or the situation.

Sorry, I was ambiguous. It's pepipoo where some posters seem to me to be actively encouraging poor decisions. This thread seems to be a couple of informed posters and rather a lot of Sergeant Frasers. The OP's doomed, I tell ye, doooooooomed.

 

[pandos]

... pepipoo where some posters seem to me to be actively encouraging poor decisions. This thread seems to be a couple of informed posters and rather a lot of Sergeant Frasers..

That is a very interesting site, big difference is that the acts it deals with are generally understood as being unlawful and the advice is sought from a position of " if i do not sort this out I will have to pay" ....

OP needs to obtain for himself proper advice from a solicitor.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I don't agree with seeking legal advice in this case. He would just be adding fees to his total costs. Communication and negotiation are the way to go.

That is a very interesting site, big difference is that the acts it deals with are generally understood as being unlawful and the advice is sought from a position of " if i do not sort this out I will have to pay" ....

OP needs to obtain for himself proper advice from a solicitor.

 

[pandos]

I don't agree with seeking legal advice in this case. He would just be adding fees to his total costs. Communication and negotiation are the way to go.

I agree that negotiation is the way to go, but as no consensus has been arrived at in this thread the OP is best going into negotiations knowing his worst case scenario and the options that the yard and he has.

He does not need to retain the Solicitor to start writing letters on his behalf, just to let him know the where he stands legally.

 

[Tranona]

I agree that negotiation is the way to go, but as no consensus has been arrived at in this thread the OP is best going into negotiations knowing his worst case scenario and the options that the yard and he has.

He does not need to retain the Solicitor to start writing letters on his behalf, just to let him know the where he stands legally.

A legal adviser will have the same problem as we have here - there is insufficient information in the OP's post to give definitive advice, so inevitably just like much of the "advice" here will be based on assumptions that may not be correct. While one can state what the law is in the abstract, how it applies to a particular case will depend on the facts, and we do not know all the facts, hence differences in advice depending on the assumptions made (plus of course some misunderstandings of the law and legal processes shown by some commentators).

 

[Floyd Raser]

I've just read this thread from the start (having car serviced - Yawn!) and surely there's no point adding legal suggestions any more until the op has posted an update. There is enough advice here already and his silence may be an indicator of his own lack of interest.

 

[pandos]

A legal adviser will have the same problem as we have here -.

Surely a legal adviser will be able to ask questions and ascertain what actually happened and he will be in a position to check that his understanding of the facts is correct prior to giving advice.!

 

[longjohnsilver]

I've just read this thread from the start (having car serviced - Yawn!) and surely there's no point adding legal suggestions any more until the op has posted an update. There is enough advice here already and his silence may be an indicator of his own lack of interest.

You may well be correct. And jfm has already stated the legal position very clearly in the 3rd post. And all this over a £500 bill!!

 

[ianj99]

Surely a legal adviser will be able to ask questions and ascertain what actually happened and he will be in a position to check that his understanding of the facts is correct prior to giving advice.!

Your still presupposing the OP has not done anything dubious himself, like removing the boat without pre arranging it with the yard....

Otherwise as was said in post 58, we await the OP's update.

 

[Strolls]

no consensus has been arrived at in this thread

That's because the world in general, and internet forums specifically, are full of people who talk about things of which they are ignorant, and who don't care if they give advice that is factually incorrect.

The correct advice has been given in this thread, but at least a couple of people here have chosen to dispute it and make untrue claims about UK consumer law.

It seems to me that this thread has already reached peak dubiosity, and one would be better off consulting some consumer law websites or forums.

I started composing this comment intending not to go this far, but just for shits and giggles, I searched "bad workmanship uk law":

It's usually considered reasonable to give the trader a chance to put things right.

The amount of compensation you can claim for shoddy work could be affected if you unreasonably refuse to allow the trader an opportunity to make amends.

If you're not happy with a service that has been provided, you should inform the trader straight away explaining what you're not happy with.

You should confirm this in writing with a list of the specific problems to be sorted out, giving a deadline for the remedial work to be carried out.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/supply-of-goods-and-services-act-1982

You should usually give the trader a chance to put things right. You need to show you have been reasonable in case you have to go to court.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...e/what-can-you-do-about-a-service-done-badly/

If you withhold payment it puts you in breach of contract, unless you agreed a retention with a snagging clause.

You should pay him, give him the opportunity to put it right.

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/forum/builders/8420-very-poor-workmanship-can-i-withhold-payment.html

Also: http://www.tradeadvisor.com/a/tips/handling-disputes-with-builders-and-tradesmen

I apologise for the tone of this comment. It infuriates me when people give advice on internet forums which is factually incorrect.

 

[duncan99210]

Just read this through and what strikes me is the way the OP failed to go through the work done with the yard before sailing away. I realise that as one of the old farts who are retired I don't have the time constraints those still working have but when I was working I always made sure that when coughing up significant sums of money for work on the boat I made time to go over the boat with the yard or mechanic who had done the work. In this way, I was in a position to say"That's not been done the way I wanted it done" and they could say "Yes but we had to do it that way because"...... Irrespective of the law in this case, I think that the OP should be letting the yard put things right: perhaps the best compromise would be for the yard to send someone to the boat to sort the rectification work rather than the boat being taken back to the yard?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Duncan , not sure I agree with the yard sending someone out to the boat , for a start how far is the boat to the yard , we almost always do our own work but the few time I let other do it for me I check the work before I paid , the yard maybe guilt of not doing the work to a good standard but the OP hasn't really given them a chance to put things right to top it up his not returned here to answer some of the question asked of him , you have to wonder why ? If you take some thing I. For repair , boat , car , PC and the job isn't done then most and I know I would be saying , once you fixed the problem I will pay you and not until , not take it way while no ones around then refuse to take it back , one has to wonder , is this a case of , finding a way not to pay the outstanding amount .

 

[Tranona]

Surely a legal adviser will be able to ask questions and ascertain what actually happened and he will be in a position to check that his understanding of the facts is correct prior to giving advice.!

But so could many people here. Presented with the same information as the OP gives, even the best legal adviser could only state what the general legal position is in consumer transactions, not give detailed advice on action.

 

[ianj99]

Just read this through and what strikes me is the way the OP failed to go through the work done with the yard before sailing away. I realise that as one of the old farts who are retired I don't have the time constraints those still working have but when I was working I always made sure that when coughing up significant sums of money for work on the boat I made time to go over the boat with the yard or mechanic who had done the work. In this way, I was in a position to say"That's not been done the way I wanted it done" and they could say "Yes but we had to do it that way because"...... Irrespective of the law in this case, I think that the OP should be letting the yard put things right: perhaps the best compromise would be for the yard to send someone to the boat to sort the rectification work rather than the boat being taken back to the yard?

+1. The OP seems not to have acted with integrity - was he told payment was required before he could remove the boat, but came back at the weekend and took it anyway; is he refusing to let the yard take a look because he he is hiding the yacht from them (in case they take it back to the yard, ostensibly to fix the alleged defects, but also so they can place a lien on it if he refuses to pay up)?
Are the alleged faults partly or wholly his own doing to justify not paying up?

Maybe we'll never know even if the OP does update the thread.

 

[JumbleDuck]

+1. The OP seems not to have acted with integrity - was he told payment was required before he could remove the boat, but came back at the weekend and took it anyway...

I haven't seen anything to suggest that he was told he had to pay before moving the boat, but perhaps I've missed that. I'm just going by ...

I ended up moving the boat on a Sunday without a chance to settle up with the yard in advance, they were closed. (I have paid 2/3rd already) ...

I think he'll have to give the yard a chance to fix it, though.

 

[pandos]

But so could many people here. Presented with the same information as the OP gives, even the best legal adviser could only state what the general legal position is in consumer transactions, not give detailed advice on action.

Of course a legal adviser could give clear advice on action, that is their job,.... what they should not do is give advice based on confused vague or absent instructions,

There is some good advice on this this thread, albeit that it is difficult to know which piece to follow. Because this is a thread that is of interest and may indeed have a bearing on many others it is perhaps worth trying to unravel it.

The OP has not answered the most important question, it has been raised by a few posts, "Did he have the yard's express agreement to remove the boat?". this is a yes or no question.

From my reading of his posts I believe the answer is "NO" and thus he took the boat in breach of contract and in breach of the repairers lien on the vessel, and is on the wrong side of the the law and ought to get things sorted out as soon as possible.

Jfm touched on the issue of liens, but dealt with them in the context of there being no lien in place when the boat was taken in the first place, I take this as an indication that his reading of the situation is that there was agreement to the OP taking his boat. (I think this is the only point that I differ to him on, and I stand to be corrected by JFM if I am misunderstanding him)

If OP had permission to take the boat then the yard would be liable for doing the work badly etc and JFM's advice would be spot on.

Thus my comment that he ought to get advice that he can rely on from somebody that he can open up to. He needs to understand where he stands, whether it be in order to defend his acts, or to take the offensive.

Of course negotiation will usually be best all round, but people need to be aware that some commercial entities put policies and practices in place to deal with what they may see as someone making off without paying, it is not urban myth that the big supermarkets etc prosecute shoplifters in respect of pennies worth of goods.

To sum up, His initial question was "where do I stand" I think the answer to that depends on the answer to the question asked above,"Did he have the yards express agreement to remove the boat?"

I hope I have not bored anyone with this, my last post on this thread.

For the record I am qualified to deal with issues like this, even in the UK.

use or do not use this information /advice entirely at your own peril.

Tony.

 

[Floyd Raser]

So we can all take something away from this: Any of us needing work in the future should now remember be very careful and have a clear understanding of the pitfalls of misunderstanding and/or mis-communication. In that way it has been a useful thread.

My advice: Learn how to be a good customer and give people motivation to do a good job for you. Doesn't always work of course, but it's a good insurance policy.

 

[RichardS]

If OP had permission to take the boat then the yard would be liable for doing the work badly etc and JFM's advice would be spot on.

JFM also said you do not have to return the boat to them "to give them a chance to put things right" ........
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...y-of-work-payment-dispute#3j26eGQ06J2b3Y6s.99 but when I said the same thing in response to another post I got shouted down most vociferously.

It's a funny old world!

Richard

 

[ghostlymoron]

I'm bored with this now. Its all been said and the OP has disappeared. Please, no more.