Boatyard quality of work / payment dispute

[mattnj]

Where do I stand on this one....boat goes in for engine out/paint/repair/refit....all works done, get a bill total for a a load of money (around £1500)
I ended up moving the boat on a Sunday without a chance to settle up with the yard in advance, they were closed. (I have paid 2/3rd already)

Motor the boat to a new location, new mooring, not going back to the yard....and on the way I find out that there is a few major issues....firstly the alternator has not been connected to the battery (but has been to field winding) so that's blown up...secondly its been leaking diesel (they used and 8mm new bit of pipe on a 6mm fitting!) and also the top cockpit hatch that was removed to remove engine has been screwed back down and sealed badly...as in, it leaks like a sieve onto the new floor when it gets wet, so that needs looking at again.

The yard is calling me insisting on payment for the outstanding as I have moved the boat, and I would have no issue at all with that, other than all the hassle I'm now facing to sort out the issues....they are telling me I have to return the boat to fix issues, and that isn't going to happen.

where do I stand...

 

[prv]

I would definitely hold onto the balance until the work is done properly - but the fact that you won't go back to the yard makes it tricky as you surely have to give them a reasonable opportunity to do it. What's the reason for not going back? Just distance? Or the yard owners are different to the works company and would want to charge you?

Do you want/need the remedial work doing by a pro, or are you happy to fix it yourself and just don't want (quite rightly) to pay full price for an unfinished job?

Pete

 

[jfm]

Be careful

you do not have to return the boat to them "to give them a chance to put things right" though it might be nice to and you might want to - I don't know.

right now they do not have possession of the boat. If you return it to them for repair, they then have lawful possession of it. Then, and only then, they have lien over it. IE they keep it till you pay, or you take court action to get it back. But if you don't give them possession of the boat, they have no lien. They do not have a lien if they take possession without your permission; they only have a lien if they have lawful possession, which means with your permission

So if you do want to give them a chance to fix things without inadvertently giving them a lien, invite them to come on board the boat to fix the repairs NOT in their yard and while you're on board, and tell them they do not have possession of it (coming on board while you're on board isn't possession; coming on board while you are away arguably is)

If you do not want further dealings then get the repairs done elsewhere and deduct the cost from the £500 you owe them, and leave it at that. no doubt they wont be happy, and I have no idea of the fall out you might suffer from that

Separately, they might argue you started the engine before they'd finished. I cant comment on that - depends on precise detail

 

[prv]

The best advice I can give at this point is to follow whatever jfm says

Pete

 

[mattnj]

Thanks.

They told me it was ready to go....so no issue with readiness. They aren't touching it again....so I'll just have to tell them that and see what happens.

In the interest of fairness I think I'll add up the time I spend at their rates plus the costs and deduct that....No doubt it will be over what I owe....if it's not...I'll pay the balance.

 

[pandos]

Where do I stand on this one....boat goes in for engine out/paint/repair/refit....all works done, get a bill total for a a load of money (around £1500)
I ended up moving the boat on a Sunday without a chance to settle up with the yard in advance, they were closed. (I have paid 2/3rd already)

........... not going back to the yard....The yard is calling me insisting on payment for the outstanding as I have moved the boat, .....

Am I misunderstanding this, did you have permission to remove the boat prior to settling the bill?

The yard surely had a lien on the boat pending payment for the repairs, if so they could have been regarded as the owners and you took their property without their permission.

The following quote seems like a true reflection of the situation, taken from http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/legal-article-business-law/motor-trade-advice/liens-abandoned-vehicles.

When someone delivers a vehicle to you under such a temporary arrangement as a repair you are classed as a 'bailee' and the customer is a 'bailor'. In law a bailee for repairs is entitled to retain possession (called exercising a 'lien') until paid.

think in terms of theft Act 968 section 5(1) “Belonging to another”.

(1)Property shall be regarded as belonging to any person having possession or control of it, or having in it any proprietary right or interest (not being an equitable interest arising only from an agreement to transfer or grant an interest).

Their statement that the boat was ready to go was incorrect but probably not an invitation to take it without paying for it, obviously if there is a custom or practice of you not paying until later and their acceptance of this practice then that would change things but as things stand I would bring it back to them and get things sorted properly.

Ones own time is not normally chargeable in this situation, perhaps luckily for you, if it were what about their time in calling you up looking for payment, instructing their solicitors etc.

As things stand I'd have their side of this matter given a choice, also be aware they will have been down this road before and will know precisely how to act so as to maximize their chance of a favorable outcome, against this presumably you are not in the habit of having difficulties like this.

Think carefully,

use these comments, or not, entirely at your own risk.

best of luck.

Tony.

 

[mickyp168]

Tony is on the right line. You need to be very careful what you do next. If you did not have permission to take possession of the boat when you did and there is an outstanding lien against the boat which is 'property' in these circumstances then there is a case that you have stolen your own boat under the Theft Act 1968. Whether the boat yard would want to pursue this course of action and whether the police would wish to pursue a prosecution is another matter of course. From your post it seems that you have partially paid the bill and took your boat with the intention of paying the balance in good faith. You then found some issues so you dispute the balance and do not have confidence in the boat yard to rectify the problems. That is understandable, but I suggest the law is on the side of the yard at the moment. The problem is that if you took the boat without permission and will not return it then under the Theft Act 1968 you took 'property belonging to another' , and have the intention to 'permanently deprive them of it', ie you will not return it. I suggest you take professional legal advice in whatever you decide what to do. I doubt the yard would involve the police at the end of the day but if they take you to court I would suggest it would not be in your favour. If you had paid the bill or pay the bill now and the work is unsatisfactory then the yard have not honoured their contract with you to repair the boat as agreed . Then you have a case against them to rectify the issues at their cost. The problem hinges on whether you took your boat with or without the permission of the yard. I am not a legal professional the above is opinion but I do urge you to take legal advice

Good luck Mick

 

[Talulah]

Tony is on the right line. You need to be very careful what you do next. If you did not have permission to take possession of the boat when you did and there is an outstanding lien against the boat which is 'property' in these circumstances then there is a case that you have stolen your own boat under the Theft Act 1968. Whether the boat yard would want to pursue this course of action and whether the police would wish to pursue a prosecution is another matter of course. From your post it seems that you have partially paid the bill and took your boat with the intention of paying the balance in good faith. You then found some issues so you dispute the balance and do not have confidence in the boat yard to rectify the problems. That is understandable, but I suggest the law is on the side of the yard at the moment. The problem is that if you took the boat without permission and will not return it then under the Theft Act 1968 you took 'property belonging to another' , and have the intention to 'permanently deprive them of it', ie you will not return it. I suggest you take professional legal advice in whatever you decide what to do. I doubt the yard would involve the police at the end of the day but if they take you to court I would suggest it would not be in your favour. If you had paid the bill or pay the bill now and the work is unsatisfactory then the yard have not honoured their contract with you to repair the boat as agreed . Then you have a case against them to rectify the issues at their cost. The problem hinges on whether you took your boat with or without the permission of the yard. I am not a legal professional the above is opinion but I do urge you to take legal advice

Good luck Mick

For the Theft Act you also have to prove "Dishonestly appropriated". In this instance it looks just like a civil dispute.

 

[savageseadog]

The OP is in a weak position I would suggest. Taking the boat will to some extent imply acceptance of it in the condition it was in, the fact that it was taken without notice compounds the issue. Could the bill only have been an interim one pending further work and a final bill? The yard would presumably say this and claim the work wasn't finished.

 

[chrishelen]

You need to pay the bill and move on imo. Put it down to experience and never use them again, the stress of this will make you I'll. What are they going to give you?

I had a similar dispute a few weeks ago when it took the yard almost 3 days to do a job that I could have done in a morning. The 'mechanic' was racking the hours up driving back and forth getting parts he should have had on his van, then he snapped his drill bit and he charged me 3 hours to drive the old one out and go to B&Q to buy a new one, when I asked for an run down of the bill, and the actual work done all this came to light, but a few carefully worded emails to his boss got 2 days labour charges knocked off.

Ask for a detailed itemised worksheet from the actual man who did the job, and take it from there.
Good luck.

 

[ghostlymoron]

You've put yourself in a difficult position by your own actions. The lack of communication with the yard has caused this. How far away is the yard? Why not discuss it with them? You are obliged to pay the bill because the work has been done and they will take action against you to recover the debt. Communication and negotiation is the answer. You can then inspect the work when completed and pay when you are satisfied which is what you should have done in the first place. Sorry.
Why did you make a stage payment? I always avoid this as it reduces your leverage for getting the work done to your satisfaction.

 

[[70521]]

They told me it was ready to go....

Run that past me again, they "told you it was ready to go", did you not get somebody to go through the work done with you before accepting the boat back?

 

[mickyp168]

It can be argued that as the boat was in the possession of the yard ( because there is outstanding payment due they are an 'owner' at that time). The op then took the boat and does not intend to return it to them the appropriation was dishonest. It is a grey area I agree. But I know of similar incidents in statute where there has been a conviction for theft. Albeit it involves removing a car from a garage but the circumstances are basically the same. Overall in civil or criminal law the op is on a sticky wicket. He should pay up then the ball is back in his court legally. Then try and solve the issue with the yard or put it down to experience and move on to save a nervous breakdown of legal 'tennis'. The only person who would win would be a solicitor receiving his/her fee!

 

[pandos]

For the Theft Act you also have to prove "Dishonestly appropriated". In this instance it looks just like a civil dispute.

I think it is obvious that an appropriation took place, the only question is whether or not it was dishonest which is a question for Police/CPS/ Judge /Jury and at that stage the situation is far beyond where the OP wants it to be.

It can look dishonest to go in to a place and take goods because the bill is too high and you intend not to pay it and think that removing the goods is a way to prevent your being pressurised.

"OP could be likened to the guy that runs out of the restaurant without paying and now discovered he has food poisoning"

I'd go back, give them the boat, talk to them, and do not take it away without their say so, if it cannot be resolved amicably seek professional legal advice that you can rely on, but that will probably cost you more than the repairs are worth.

use this advice, or not, entirely at your own risk

Good Luck

Tony

 

[Tranona]

It can look dishonest to go in to a place and take goods because the bill is too high and you intend not to pay it and think that removing the goods is a way to prevent your being pressurised.

Read the OP. That is NOT what he has done. He was informed by the yard that the work was complete. The question of the final payment came later when he discovered that the work had not been done properly.

The earlier advice to have them come to the boat to correct the defective work, or pay for it to be corrected is sound.

 

[mickyp168]

Yes you are right. Although the boat was in the 'possession' of the yard at the time he removed it his mens rea was to pay the bill later. Then the shoddy work was found. So it would not be dishonest. Its a civil matter but he does owe the yard. An amicable solution with the yard is his best bet. As the law would be on their side I think. Suing or being sued is something best avoided.

 

[RichardS]

In my opinion there are some very odd replies in this thread.

It's simple:

Yard worked on boat.

Yard told OP that boat was ready for departure.

OP departed with boat and then discovered that the work was not done correctly and this will now give rise to additional expense.

Does he have any obligation to settle the outstanding part of the bill? Absolutely not. The Yard have not correctly performed their obligations according to the original contract so the OP has no obligation to pay the bill. To "pay them the balance and move on", as some have suggested, is madness.

I would have the corrective work done, or do it myself, and charge the yard a fair amount for my time and parts by subtraction from the balance.

If the Yard don't like it they can lump it and sue. If they do sue, they will lose as I will have taken photos of their shoddy workmanship.

Richard

 

[pandos]

Read the OP. That is NOT what he has done. He was informed by the yard that the work was complete. The question of the final payment came later when he discovered that the work had not been done properly.

......

Read his post the question of payment arose before he took the boat, he had the bill, if he had slipped a cheque under the door or left a note promising to pay etc that would be better but actual provable acts done are sometimes more important then the post fact expression of an earlier intention.

 

[prv]

Read his post the question of payment arose before he took the boat,

I don't think anyone on this thread knows enough to judge what the true situation is with regard to readiness, permission to move the boat, or payment terms. The OP will have to explain this very clearly, until then you're all just arguing from the different assumptions you've each made, and won't get anywhere.

Pete

 

[RichardS]

I don't think anyone on this thread knows enough to judge what the true situation is with regard to readiness, permission to move the boat, or payment terms......until then you're all just arguing from the different assumptions you've each made, and won't get anywhere.

Pete

The forum at its best ..... surely? :encouragement:

Richard