Boats over 30 feet with tillers. Elan 333

[roblpm]

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2001/Elan-333-3125926/Netherlands#.WbmhyZ_TXqA

Looks lovely to me. I assume the autopilot is under the deck.

All the other elan 333s on sale seem to have wheels.

Im not quite ready to buy. Another few years. But for a boat for some general cruising, a bit if single handing and a bit of racing any disadvantages of a tiller? Looks like it frees ip a lot of space in the cockpit when at berth on this design.

My current 28 foot boat has a tiller which suits me fine.

But do grown up boats have wheels?!

 

[Tranona]

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2001/Elan-333-3125926/Netherlands#.WbmhyZ_TXqA

Looks lovely to me. I assume the autopilot is under the deck.

All the other elan 333s on sale seem to have wheels.

Im not quite ready to buy. Another few years. But for a boat for some general cruising, a bit if single handing and a bit of racing any disadvantages of a tiller? Looks like it frees ip a lot of space in the cockpit when at berth on this design.

My current 28 foot boat has a tiller which suits me fine.

But do grown up boats have wheels?!

There is a limit to the size of boat that can be controlled with a tiller as the loads get too high, so the tiller has to be very long. for example the Bestever (probably spelt it wrong) 46 tested by YM had a tiller, all of 2m long. There is a crossover point that is somewhere between 30-36', but as ever it depends on specifics. For example a Rustler 33 is just right, but it is really only a 26' boat with very long ends. A modern design with a decent amount of volume and displacement generates high rudder loads so a wheel becomes a necessity at some point.

Your observation is common amongst people who have always sailed smaller boats where a tiller makes sense, but pretty sure, like most, when you actually get a boat with a wheel you will wonder what you worried about. The Elan is at that crossover point, but as you have observed most owners choose a wheel - and when buying new it was a choice which they consciously exercised. Think that probably answers your question.

 

[Debenair]

I had a very rare tiller steered Sunshine 38, and loved it. Dead simple. Carried a nicely varnished spare tiller.
Could get right up to windward with a lovely long Spinlock extension.
The only downside was the tillerpilot for autopilot steering, but had I felt it important I could have installed a linear Drive unit attached to the rudder stock- there was certainly space for it.

 

[roblpm]

There is a limit to the size of boat that can be controlled with a tiller as the loads get too high, so the tiller has to be very long. for example the Bestever (probably spelt it wrong) 46 tested by YM had a tiller, all of 2m long. There is a crossover point that is somewhere between 30-36', but as ever it depends on specifics. For example a Rustler 33 is just right, but it is really only a 26' boat with very long ends. A modern design with a decent amount of volume and displacement generates high rudder loads so a wheel becomes a necessity at some point.

Your observation is common amongst people who have always sailed smaller boats where a tiller makes sense, but pretty sure, like most, when you actually get a boat with a wheel you will wonder what you worried about. The Elan is at that crossover point, but as you have observed most owners choose a wheel - and when buying new it was a choice which they consciously exercised. Think that probably answers your question.

Shame. It looks a lot nicer to me! But that's from the comfort of my living room!

 

[lpdsn]

Sigma 36 has a tiller as standard although I have seen a few with wheels advertised (Sigma 362 is a later cruisey version with a wheel). Sails nicely too.

They're quite cheap too as the accommodation focuses on squeezing in as many berths as possible, which is not what most cruising sailors want.

Not sure how competitive they are under IRC though - a bit undercanvassed and rely on a big no.1 which IRC penalises. Still you should get a low rating with a blade jib and do quite well providing you're only interested in sailing in heavy weather.

 

[aquaplane]

My Espace 1000 has a tiller and it's easy to steer. The autopilot is hydraulic acting on a quadrant hidden behind the rudder stock.

The cockpit is remarkably spacious without a binnacle and wheel splitting a good proportion of it off.

It is a fairly wide cockpit so we can have all the crew outside without getting in the way of the tiller when tacking.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

There is a limit to the size of boat that can be controlled with a tiller as the loads get too high, so the tiller has to be very long. for example the Bestever (probably spelt it wrong) 46 tested by YM had a tiller, all of 2m long. There is a crossover point that is somewhere between 30-36', but as ever it depends on specifics. For example a Rustler 33 is just right, but it is really only a 26' boat with very long ends. A modern design with a decent amount of volume and displacement generates high rudder loads so a wheel becomes a necessity at some point.

Your observation is common amongst people who have always sailed smaller boats where a tiller makes sense, but pretty sure, like most, when you actually get a boat with a wheel you will wonder what you worried about. The Elan is at that crossover point, but as you have observed most owners choose a wheel - and when buying new it was a choice which they consciously exercised. Think that probably answers your question.

Meh.
Hugo Boss has tillers. 60 foot and 30kts.
A balanced rudder has quite low loads.

 

[lw395]

Meh.
Hugo Boss has tillers. 60 foot and 30kts.
A balanced rudder has quite low loads.

A balanced rudder certainly helps.
Tiller steering used to be preferred for racing up to around 38 to 40 ft.

But tillers are a hard sell to people who've grown up with wheels on charter boats.

Wasn't one of the OYC boats tiller steered at about 70ft and god knows how many tons?

ISTR anecdotes of tillers throwing people over the side when going astern though.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

My boat is 32' long and is tiller steered.

The advantages are that it gives a direct feedback of the sail balance whereas a wheel has little or no feeling, especially if hydraulic. A wheel tends to cut off the helmsman from rest of the cockpit; not a problem on a boat with a crew to attend to sheets and winches but a nightmare for someone who sails solo (as I do).
I think that much depends upon the design of the boat (is it wide-arsed and prone to spectacular broaching?) and the rudder blade (is it well-balanced or is it just a barn-door flap?).
With the power of modern tiller pilots a long tiller is not really necessary because most TPs are fitted at a distance of around half a metre from the stock head. If necessary the tiller may even be cut short leaving around 110m forward of the TP attachment pin and having an extension to the tiller that can be slipped on in case of emergency e.g., a TP failure.

 

[Quandary]

Most of our boats, including the present one, have been tiller steered and I like the precision and the one hand movement control that it allows. When we changed from a Sigma 33 to a 38 we had a wheel, as had our Finngulf 33, but in both cases the wheel was a decent size and the mechanism light and direct so it felt like tiller steering with only single hand movements needed, no need to feed it. Jefa make good wheel steering systems.
However after getting used to the wheels, my wife who does a lot of the steering, has taken against the tiller and tends to moan about it. Her main complaint seems to be that the wheel is more intuitive, which I think means it is more like a car. I think this bears out that folk go for what they are used to.

 

[Concerto]

The Westerly Fulmar at 32ft all have a tiller - except one retro fitted wheel. Finger light control due to balanced rudder and full access around the cockpit with a tiller extension. The late Ed Dubois told me it was one of his favourite designs for the way it sailed.

 

[Minchsailor]

My Rustler 36 has a tiller, but it is a bit heavy on the helm. For the autohelm I use the Hydrovane as an auxiliary rudder which works really well.

 

[alant]

There is a limit to the size of boat that can be controlled with a tiller as the loads get too high, so the tiller has to be very long. for example the Bestever (probably spelt it wrong) 46 tested by YM had a tiller, all of 2m long. There is a crossover point that is somewhere between 30-36', but as ever it depends on specifics. For example a Rustler 33 is just right, but it is really only a 26' boat with very long ends. A modern design with a decent amount of volume and displacement generates high rudder loads so a wheel becomes a necessity at some point.

Your observation is common amongst people who have always sailed smaller boats where a tiller makes sense, but pretty sure, like most, when you actually get a boat with a wheel you will wonder what you worried about. The Elan is at that crossover point, but as you have observed most owners choose a wheel - and when buying new it was a choice which they consciously exercised. Think that probably answers your question.

Saga 40 has a tiller.

 

[prv]

Wasn't one of the OYC boats tiller steered at about 70ft and god knows how many tons?

Some big gaffers with tillers as well. Though possibly a case of making do with what was available/affordable at the time and putting up with heavy loads. Relieving tackles in heavy weather are not unknown, and I've heard of one boat which was basically steered by standing on the leeward side of the tiller and leaning back against it.

Pete

 

[prv]

I assume the autopilot is under the deck.

Don't think so. There's a tillerpilot nipple on the aft sweep of the tiller, and the socket for the other end on the corner of the seat in the background:

Pity really - I'd happily go back to a tiller on a boat where it made sense, but I'd still want a below-deck linear drive that engages with the press of a button rather than manually hooking up loose chunks of machinery.

Pete

 

[colind3782]

Our Furia 332 originally came with a tiller but a previous owner converted it to wheel. It's a bit awkward getting around the wheel as it takes up a bit of room but fine when you get used to it.

 

[John the kiwi]

Have sailed wheel steered charter yachts.
Vastly prefer my tiller steer boat esp. for racing.
My rudder is quite well balanced, though i would like a bit more fwd of the axis for broad reaching to be honest.
Upwind though the tiller cant be beat. I hold it between two fingers and the tiller tells me when the sails are in balance and I am "in the groove."
Before you ask yes ideally there is a little bit of weather helm, but only a tiny amount.

 

[Tranona]

Saga 40 has a tiller.

You could find lots of individual examples of larger boats that have tillers, particularly those that have their design origins in the distant past (like your example) before cheap and reliable wheel steering mechanisms were available. Incidentally different on the other side of the pond wheel steering was adopted much earlier, primarily because of the availability of the excellent Edson quadrant steering gear.

Does not change the generalisation that in modern cruising boats the majority have wheel steering once you get above 32' or so.

If you want good examples of the limitations of tiller steering on larger boats suggest you read some of Maurice Griffiths' accounts of fighting such beasts!

 

[johnalison]

My HR 34 has the standard tiller, with a balanced rudder and excellent handling. There is an alternative wheel version, but this makes the cockpit awkward.

I have sailed and owned boats with both, including a 26' Mystere with the standard wheel. The general view is that a tiller is better when sailing to windward and a wheel more comfortable and easier downwind. Overall, I would suggest going for whichever version the boat was designed for, but I think that too many boats in the 32-34ft range are now issued with wheels only. I see that the new HR 340, which is nearly 36', has a tiller as standard with the option of twin wheels.

 

[SailSouth]

I'd prefer a tiller any day of the week and no reason not to have one on larger boats, particularly if the rudder is of a balanced design. My 32' tiller steered boat is a joy to sail, the 39' Sealord with a wheel is a compromise (wheel could do with being bigger to reach it from the cockpit sides but seating does not allow that - perhaps I can fit a tiller extension to the wheel ) Both boats have unbalanced rudders.

If steering is heavy, particularly upwind, that is 90% of the time down to stretched sails, too much sail or (most likely) poor sail trim. Other factors such as rig setup can also have a significant effect.