Boating officially open says DEFRA

[rickwales]

There has been refreshingly is little criticism of the the Police on here rather more, including me, take issue with other organisations and people who seem to think that they suddenly possess police powers, or even the power to invent random rules for water users.

However in view of your final paragraph it is worth re-iterating that government press conference statements have no weight in law.

Thats a pretty accurate comment really, the Police over here in Wales delight in turning around tourists and fining them and are having remarkable success in catching travelling drug dealers. On the boating side its the harbour authorities and marinas and clubs that seem to be interpreting and policing the regulations (which dont seem to specifically mention boating?)
One of the points I tried to raise with my local MP is that Golf and Cycling are permitted and in respect of the strain on lifeboat crews the Bristol channel has England one side, wales the other so as boating is permitted in England why keep it locked down in Wales, Even my wife (who is a NHS EMT) agrees on this!

 

[Assassin]

People can debate this until the cows come home, but law is law and guidance is guidance and not law; the only way this will be resolved is with a Lawful Precedent from the High Court.

 

[TwoHooter]

I won't demean this thread by mentioning any politician or unelected special adviser by name, but perhaps I may say without fear of contradiction that we are no longer all in this together and the time has come to make individual decisions about what to do for the best.
We can make such decisions according to our own moral compass, a risk assessment, or our interpretation of the law. All these will be valid bases for making decisions. After all, we use them when making other decisions in our lives.
If I decide to drive somewhere my moral compass tells me that this is acceptable if I exercise due care and attention, and so does my risk assessment, and so does the law.
I don't think it's sensible to make decisions according to any edict or exhortation or even public guidance from our leaders.
Not now it isn't.
I will be spending a few days and nights on our boat next week.
My moral compass tells me that I will not be harming anybody, neither myself nor anybody else.
So does my risk assessment.
So far as the law is concerned I think Stranded is wrong.
If I am offered a Fixed Penalty Notice I will decline to accept it, give my name and address, and invite a prosecution.
I quite look forward to defending any action which is taken against me.

 

[jon and michie]

Whether the politician was right or wrong - This could be to our advantage next week if Boris says we can stay at our 2nd homes which he maybe pushed into because of the public outcry.

I believe that family will be allowed to visit another household (social distance to be observed ) on phase 2 of easing lockdown - so in my opinion staying on board your boat is not doing any harm what so ever.

jon

 

[longjohnsilver]

I won't demean this thread by mentioning any politician or unelected special adviser by name, but perhaps I may say without fear of contradiction that we are no longer all in this together and the time has come to make individual decisions about what to do for the best.
We can make such decisions according to our own moral compass, a risk assessment, or our interpretation of the law. All these will be valid bases for making decisions. After all, we use them when making other decisions in our lives.
If I decide to drive somewhere my moral compass tells me that this is acceptable if I exercise due care and attention, and so does my risk assessment, and so does the law.
I don't think it's sensible to make decisions according to any edict or exhortation or even public guidance from our leaders.
Not now it isn't.
I will be spending a few days and nights on our boat next week.
My moral compass tells me that I will not be harming anybody, neither myself nor anybody else.
So does my risk assessment.
So far as the law is concerned I think Stranded is wrong.
If I am offered a Fixed Penalty Notice I will decline to accept it, give my name and address, and invite a prosecution.
I quite look forward to defending any action which is taken against me.

You naughty man! I write this sitting on my boat, ready to spend another night aboard. And looking forward to a day out of the marina tomorrow at anchor, hopefully soaking up the sun and enjoying a first water borne Bbq of the summer. And I agree with every word you’ve written above. My thoughts exactly.

 

[TwoHooter]

I'm being pedantic here but just in case anyone reads this thread in the future I'd like to bring things up to date.

I still think that my interpretation of the original regulations was correct but on 1 June 2020 the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 (UK SI No. 350) was amended by SI 2020 No. 558.

It is now illegal to stay overnight at any place other than the place where you are living.

Perhaps someone from government was reading this thread!

My wife and I must now drive for 3 hours to our boat in the morning, and drive home again in the evening, and repeat the performance every time we visit the boat. Perhaps this makes sense to someone. It does not make sense to me. But then common sense has been lacking since this first started. I don't recall such incompetent governance ever before in my life.

Meanwhile, regulation 7 (gatherings over 6 people are illegal) is being flouted openly all over the country and the police are doing nothing to enforce the law even when criminal damage is being caused,. That won't stop the police enforcing against me of course, I'm what you might call a soft target in a target-rich environment.

 

[paradave]

.

 

[Bouba]

I just this minute learnt something! The pioneer of steamboats in the Americas, built a boat to take passengers. It had 22 passenger cabins, and because there were 22 states at the time he named each cabin after a different state. So when you booked a passage you asked for a stateroom. And that is why than tiny cabin on your boat that you can hardly fit in is called a stateroom

 

[longjohnsilver]

I'm being pedantic here but just in case anyone reads this thread in the future I'd like to bring things up to date.

I still think that my interpretation of the original regulations was correct but on 1 June 2020 the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 (UK SI No. 350) was amended by SI 2020 No. 558.

It is now illegal to stay overnight at any place other than the place where you are living.

Perhaps someone from government was reading this thread!

My wife and I must now drive for 3 hours to our boat in the morning, and drive home again in the evening, and repeat the performance every time we visit the boat. Perhaps this makes sense to someone. It does not make sense to me. But then common sense has been lacking since this first started. I don't recall such incompetent governance ever before in my life.

Meanwhile, regulation 7 (gatherings over 6 people are illegal) is being flouted openly all over the country and the police are doing nothing to enforce the law even when criminal damage is being caused,. That won't stop the police enforcing against me of course, I'm what you might call a soft target in a target-rich environment.

If the law is an ass, ignore it.

 

[Assassin]

I won't demean this thread by mentioning any politician or unelected special adviser by name, but perhaps I may say without fear of contradiction that we are no longer all in this together and the time has come to make individual decisions about what to do for the best.
We can make such decisions according to our own moral compass, a risk assessment, or our interpretation of the law. All these will be valid bases for making decisions. After all, we use them when making other decisions in our lives.
If I decide to drive somewhere my moral compass tells me that this is acceptable if I exercise due care and attention, and so does my risk assessment, and so does the law.
I don't think it's sensible to make decisions according to any edict or exhortation or even public guidance from our leaders.
Not now it isn't.
I will be spending a few days and nights on our boat next week.
My moral compass tells me that I will not be harming anybody, neither myself nor anybody else.
So does my risk assessment.
So far as the law is concerned I think Stranded is wrong.
If I am offered a Fixed Penalty Notice I will decline to accept it, give my name and address, and invite a prosecution.
I quite look forward to defending any action which is taken against me.

If you are offered a fixed penalty notice and decline it, what is the worst they can do?
If you back this up and not give any information, particularly your name, what can they do? they arrest you and say "YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT" and as long as you continually refuse to give your name they can't actually do anything as they can only work on the name, you also have to refuse to let them take your DNA, photographs and finger prints as this is deemed as "YOUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY" and they need your consent to take it.

 

[Assassin]

Posted by itself, so will continue.

They will keep you for a couple of hours and try every trick they can to get you to give your name and to consent to them taking finger prints, DNA, and photograph, etc and as long as you refuse and see you mean business, they will release you without charge and you then bring a civil tort against them for an unlawful arrest and unlawful detention, pays for some fuel.

 

[jon and michie]

Posted by itself, so will continue.

They will keep you for a couple of hours and try every trick they can to get you to give your name and to consent to them taking finger prints, DNA, and photograph, etc and as long as you refuse and see you mean business, they will release you without charge and you then bring a civil tort against them for an unlawful arrest and unlawful detention, pays for some fuel.

words of a Freeman - once a name is given you are then contracting and the words "understand" is legalese not for the plod is speaking english but Under Stand means Stand Under i.e obey the officers demands

 

[Piers]

The RYA advises it has yet to complete it's advice on the Crown Protectorates - Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Gibraltar,

 

[jordanbasset]

If you are offered a fixed penalty notice and decline it, what is the worst they can do?
If you back this up and not give any information, particularly your name, what can they do? they arrest you and say "YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT" and as long as you continually refuse to give your name they can't actually do anything as they can only work on the name, you also have to refuse to let them take your DNA, photographs and finger prints as this is deemed as "YOUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY" and they need your consent to take it.

If they cannot ascertain your name and address and suspect you have committed an offence they can arrest you and if you continue to refuse and they have sufficient evidence to charge they can put you before the next available magistrates court
They also have the power to take fingerprints and DNA without your permission when you are under arrest

 

[Lucky Duck]

Following FMOTL type advice, no matter how well intentioned, is unlikely to go well for the person concerned.

However on subsequent review, all of the prosecutions under the act turned out to be unsound and 6 percent under the regulations were similarly incorrect.

I suspect a slightly greater amount of FPN would be found to be defective but few will risk a trip to the magistrates for the sake of £30

 

[Hooligan]

If they cannot ascertain your name and address and suspect you have committed an offence they can arrest you and if you continue to refuse and they have sufficient evidence to charge they can put you before the next available magistrates court
They also have the power to take fingerprints and DNA without your permission when you are under arrest

There is no chance in hell they will do this. Some friends of ours went down to their second home in Cornwall, which in my view is their absolute right as they bought it and pay tax etc on it. they are not harming anyone, acted sensibly, did not flout themselves. Of course someone reported them so the Police came around. They very apologetically issued a fine - £100 I think - and said that they would not bother them again. If the Police start arresting people and doing DNA etc etc then there is effective anarchy and we live in a Police state so the least of all our problems is spending a night at your second home or boat. As has been said by others, it is time to be sensible and pragmatic and staying in your second home or on your boat falls into both.

ps i didnt hear of any arrests for flouting social distance rules at the rallies this weekend.

 

[Greg2]

Some interesting opinions on what the Police might and might not do. In reality their policy is clear - Engage, Explain, Encourage and as a last resort, if necessary, Enforce. To my mind a completely proportionate and reasonable policy in the face of being handed a crock by the Govt who then ride a coach and horses through it with the Cummings saga.

Of course the media trawl up the odd example of a heavy handed approach but in reality they are not representative of what happens in the main. Any arrest for non-compliance with the Covid rules could happen in theory but would be an absolute last resort and why anyone would try to make their life difficult and effectively force things to that stage is beyond me.

As for the absolute right to stay at a second home (or on our boats) I think it relevant to say that we have all given up many of our absolute rights for the greater good. Asking people not to stay away from their home is about not adding to the burden of services where people are not ‘counted’, which strikes me as being logical despite the fact that it also prevents us from staying on our boat even though it is located where we live.

Whether or not our approach to dealing with the pandemic has been the right one is a question that will undoubtedly be the subject of debate for much time to come.

 

[longjohnsilver]

If they cannot ascertain your name and address and suspect you have committed an offence they can arrest you and if you continue to refuse and they have sufficient evidence to charge they can put you before the next available magistrates court
They also have the power to take fingerprints and DNA without your permission when you are under arrest

I have no idea if you’re right in what you say, but if they tried that it would be putting both themselves and the person arrested at much greater risk. And as for putting someone in jail, or a police holding cell, that’s just ridiculous

 

[canvey]

Does anyone know what the RYA has done or is doing about this? I am afraid that as soon as I read their "Be Conservative" poster, I cancelled my membership.

I've been reading that the angling trust applied for legal advice and lobbied DEFRA and other agencies to get the go ahead for overnight fishing. Would have though overnight fishing was a lot less of a reasonable excuse than staying overnight after going to check moorings and pump out bilges.

Seems to all boil down to what your interpretation of "reasonable excuse" is.

Thanks. Boat is too far away to get there and back in a day.

 

[jon and michie]

RYA s poster says following guidelines.
Guidelines in my book is an opinion.
But marina's are classing a boat as a 2nd home which is tosh.
As hospitality is pushing for an early easing I don't see why we cannot stay overnight as most won't be socialising