gordmac
Well-Known Member
Interesting, thanks.
Rather more complicated than we in the UK are used to!
Boating and Brexit.
- Thread starter oldgit
- Start date
Rather more complicated than we in the UK are used to!
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Took a while 
Caraway
Well-Known Member
That old one again. 25.66% of the population voted for. As you well know (I hope anyway) the electorate was 46,501,241.
37.44% of the electorate voted for.
27.8% of the electorate couldn't be bothered.
Anyway, that was then. Sorry to talk referendum, but your misleading statement needs correction.
DavidJ
Well-Known Member
Indeed you are right
My quote was from the BBC God bless ‘em
My quote was from the BBC God bless ‘em
prinex
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity what "EU Waters" means ? is it just the country 6-miles or whatever line ? Or does it needs to be Marocco or Turkey ? Or is the "custom seal" thing where customs seals your boat for 1 day so that it is "removed" from EU waters ?
I mean if you are in Ibiza maybe a trip down Marocco could be possible but if you are in Cote d' Azur where is the next EU-Water ? If you are buying a new shiny 15 Mio Euro boat I get that 20% plus the annual hassle could be worth it but for normal humans ?
All Swiss people I know which are in the marina have Italian registration(I guess its easier and the local guys will take care of paperwork for you).
I mean if you are in Ibiza maybe a trip down Marocco could be possible but if you are in Cote d' Azur where is the next EU-Water ? If you are buying a new shiny 15 Mio Euro boat I get that 20% plus the annual hassle could be worth it but for normal humans ?
All Swiss people I know which are in the marina have Italian registration(I guess its easier and the local guys will take care of paperwork for you).
Bouba
Well-Known Member
It’s a good point, what does it actually mean? For example if the boat was too small to make such an epic sea journey, could you trailer it to another country ? What would the necessary proof be? A selfie outside Red Square with the boat and today’s newspaper ? And if you did go somewhere by sea, but return to the same berth that you have a lease on, is that within the spirit of the law?
DavidJ
Well-Known Member
I think the Vatican City is outside of the EU zone so trailering your boat there would be fun every 18 months
st599
Well-Known Member
But being Swiss, they're a member of the Single Market and Schengen.
oldgit
Well-Known Member
So any private purchaser is, post Brexit , now allowed, to pay a further 20% on a private sale on a second-hand boat, imported from EU.
Free at last ?
Free at last ?
prinex
Well-Known Member
Not exactly .... customs still apply. That is if I import a Lambo from Germany to Italy there is 0 VAT, if I import it from Switzerland VAT is due (on the value of the car, they have a booklet with values etc). Unless I have also an Italian passport, I live in Switzerland, and the car was mine longer than 6 months or something like this which could open some arbitrage opportunity if you would understand something about cars value (I don't).
If I want to fly a swiss flag but still have my boat in Italy (don't quote me exactly because its long since I had to deal with this) and skip VAT etc the boat needs to be "out of European Union" for at least 180 days a year. This was done by going to the "Guardia di Finanza" and someone will come end of season and "seal" the boat (put a chain on the mooring line, some stickers on the doors etc) so that the boat was physically still in Italy but in a kind of "custom offshore zone". After 180 days the boat would be unsealed and you can start again.
This was quite inconvenient, specially as you could not use the boat in the winter (like snow in zürich but 15 deg and outdoor eating in Sanremo which is normal in December) so basically they just got italian papers for the boat and that was it.
I did saw in Ibiza some Mangusta 82 with swiss flag and "Basel" as port of origin but Ibiza is a bit special, winter is dead there all is shut (and its cold) so maybe the offshore thing could make sense.
Dino
Well-Known Member
There is also a Sailaway programme where secondhand boats can be bought in the UK vat-free but I’m guessing the brokers will need to set this up. I’m not sure how you claim back VAT on a 20 year old boat.
I contacted one broker a few months ago but they never heard of it.
Sailaway boats supplied for export outside the UK (VAT Notice 703/2)
I contacted one broker a few months ago but they never heard of it.
Sailaway boats supplied for export outside the UK (VAT Notice 703/2)
oldgit
Well-Known Member
In the bad old days you simply jumped on an Easy Jet and then told the bank to send the money, your main worry was wether the props had to come off or the radar arch had to be removed from the boat to get it under bridges.
Its so much simpler and easier now of course.
Wonder if that deal with Australia will fill the void , shame its 15,000K away and it will need to be avery big plane indeed.
We have now taken back control.
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gordmac
Well-Known Member
I think you can import a secondhand boat from the EU to NI at zero VAT then export it to GB again at zero VAT.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
EU waters means different things to different people .
If you buy an Italian boat and want it exported ie ex VAT , then the deal has to be done at least 12 miles out .
They accept a AIS trace as proof .
This I understand is an Italian thing , I think Brussels have protested or the Italians turned and twisted a telephone books worth of EU VAT law to make this happen .
Its acceptable EU wide btw once it done .
This is because Italy is the world centre for SY builders and obviously there is trickle down size to under 100 ftrs .
There is a procedure now a well trodden path of how this works .Iirc it was legitimatised circa 2015-17 ?
This was to stimulate the IT boat building industry.
Rome managed to shove it through as i said .
The burning Q I hear you all ask is a AIS trace of the boat 12 miles out proof for the 18 months TI ?
See what I mean by my opening sentence .
I don’t know .
The AIS trace for completing a sale is normally accompanied by lawyers or legal representatives for the yard and buyer and some one has to access bank accounts , the monies must transfer over 12 miles out and sync up with the Bos Issue.
Conventionally most just sail out of the EU at the TI renewal.
How ever one day someone is gonna tie up the EU bureaucracy in knots in the EU courts with “ how come when I bought it , the 12 mile AIS was accepted as outside the EU , but for TI renewal it’s NOT , you force me to sail to Tunisia and will not accept the 12 mile AIS “ Please explain to the court .
Like I said earlier the Marina base from now on might figure in the equation .
Eg pre brexit , London based = Balearics * a well trodden path , or CdA * with a VAT paid private boat .
Post Brexit , even a boggo 60:Ftr circa £ 1.5 M , starting out in the Med ….try Cyprus , Venice , Corfu , for Turkey , E Adriatic.
Or if main land Sp nearer the S so Morocco/ Tunisia loom up out of the mist within a easy sail .
Algarve is another location in the sights for a typical fam Hol restricted VAT not paid on the TI scheme boater = nip to Morocco.
* weed anchoring hassle esp if greater than 24 M in the CdA might tip the balance to move .If new a new boats on the horizon then the slippy slope to tax free just got steeper as the next base is nearer a none EU state , or easily within reach .
Some body needs to count the number of red dusters on the CdA today and repeat each year to 2031 , draw a graph .
I can tell you now the gradient over 10 years ………down ! .
Do the same in the places I have mentioned ^^^ ( there will be others ) whereby a ex EU trip is viable , I can tell you now the gradient = up wards .
So putting all this into the “ mix “ the others rather than fight the Italian 12 mile + AIS trace for transactions the rest might adopt the
“ If you can beat them join them “ attitude to halt the migration of brits to the more manageable TI bases .
Start accepting AIS traces .Watch this EU space
If you buy an Italian boat and want it exported ie ex VAT , then the deal has to be done at least 12 miles out .
They accept a AIS trace as proof .
This I understand is an Italian thing , I think Brussels have protested or the Italians turned and twisted a telephone books worth of EU VAT law to make this happen .
Its acceptable EU wide btw once it done .
This is because Italy is the world centre for SY builders and obviously there is trickle down size to under 100 ftrs .
There is a procedure now a well trodden path of how this works .Iirc it was legitimatised circa 2015-17 ?
This was to stimulate the IT boat building industry.
Rome managed to shove it through as i said .
The burning Q I hear you all ask is a AIS trace of the boat 12 miles out proof for the 18 months TI ?
See what I mean by my opening sentence .
I don’t know .
The AIS trace for completing a sale is normally accompanied by lawyers or legal representatives for the yard and buyer and some one has to access bank accounts , the monies must transfer over 12 miles out and sync up with the Bos Issue.
Conventionally most just sail out of the EU at the TI renewal.
How ever one day someone is gonna tie up the EU bureaucracy in knots in the EU courts with “ how come when I bought it , the 12 mile AIS was accepted as outside the EU , but for TI renewal it’s NOT , you force me to sail to Tunisia and will not accept the 12 mile AIS “ Please explain to the court .
Like I said earlier the Marina base from now on might figure in the equation .
Eg pre brexit , London based = Balearics * a well trodden path , or CdA * with a VAT paid private boat .
Post Brexit , even a boggo 60:Ftr circa £ 1.5 M , starting out in the Med ….try Cyprus , Venice , Corfu , for Turkey , E Adriatic.
Or if main land Sp nearer the S so Morocco/ Tunisia loom up out of the mist within a easy sail .
Algarve is another location in the sights for a typical fam Hol restricted VAT not paid on the TI scheme boater = nip to Morocco.
* weed anchoring hassle esp if greater than 24 M in the CdA might tip the balance to move .If new a new boats on the horizon then the slippy slope to tax free just got steeper as the next base is nearer a none EU state , or easily within reach .
Some body needs to count the number of red dusters on the CdA today and repeat each year to 2031 , draw a graph .
I can tell you now the gradient over 10 years ………down ! .
Do the same in the places I have mentioned ^^^ ( there will be others ) whereby a ex EU trip is viable , I can tell you now the gradient = up wards .
So putting all this into the “ mix “ the others rather than fight the Italian 12 mile + AIS trace for transactions the rest might adopt the
“ If you can beat them join them “ attitude to halt the migration of brits to the more manageable TI bases .
Start accepting AIS traces .Watch this EU space
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
When I was doing TI on my boat, the port authorities in Split, Mali Losinj and Pula were quite straightforward in their understanding of what constitutes a "check-out" to reset the TI clock. It was even explained to me what I had to do - and that was leave, sail out of sight, don't anchor anywhere and don't take the pi$$ - then come back with the Q flag flying. There were no concrete rules as such, no GPS or AIS track, but for a boat where the tax/duty was not going to be significant in comparison to the marina fees and ongoing costs of keeping the boat in Croatia - they really didn't care. Talking to australians and new zealanders in my marina, it doesn't seem to have changed.
It might be very different for something costing millions as the tax take starts to get interesting compared to the benefit to the economy of having the boat based in the country - especially as it is likely to leave at a moments notice for big-ticket items.
I think that for owners of average boats ... anything under €150K ... of which there are far more, the authorities will be happy that you go through the process, sail out of sight, turn round, and come back in to continue paying your marina fees, restaurant bills, and maintenance costs in their country.
It doesn't make economic sense to chase away paying customers for the short-term benefit of a small one-off tax grab.
I would expect it to become the norm that over time, UK residents with boats in the Med will switch to non-VAT, TI boats as a matter of common sense. If I was in a position to do it again, I wouldn't hesitate.
It might be very different for something costing millions as the tax take starts to get interesting compared to the benefit to the economy of having the boat based in the country - especially as it is likely to leave at a moments notice for big-ticket items.
I think that for owners of average boats ... anything under €150K ... of which there are far more, the authorities will be happy that you go through the process, sail out of sight, turn round, and come back in to continue paying your marina fees, restaurant bills, and maintenance costs in their country.
It doesn't make economic sense to chase away paying customers for the short-term benefit of a small one-off tax grab.
I would expect it to become the norm that over time, UK residents with boats in the Med will switch to non-VAT, TI boats as a matter of common sense. If I was in a position to do it again, I wouldn't hesitate.
julians
Well-Known Member
We recently bought a new boat in mallorca, a small one(relatively) not really capable of being taken to a different country, but perfectly capable of going 12 miles offshore for 24 hours. thought about doing the ti thing and saving 20k in vat, but decided it was too much hassle/risk, especially with the Spanish history of impound boat first, ask questions later.
oldgit
Well-Known Member
So in short for the average man on the Clapham omnibus...... post B***** if you are not able/prepared to play the system or not currently enjoying @ 28% return on your investments...the cost of freedom amounts to 20%.?