Boat value and old boat recycling

[PeterV]

I find these subjects really intriguing. On the one hand we have the prices of new boats which, to me, seem astronomical and on the other hand we have the prices of older boats going through the floor. We’re constantly told that modernising older boats is not worth it because the expense will never be covered by the resale value. So we have the RYA this month highlighting the ‘big issue’ of how to dispose of all the old unwanted boats.
There are hardly any 28-34‘ yachts being built which still seems to be a very popular size. Isn’t there a real place for modernisation of older boats to put them back into further service instead of building new? I know Jeremy Rogers yard and smaller concerns are already doing this with Contessas, but should this be the future of boating in the UK, either by amateurs or professionals?

 

[B27]

The case for refurbing a boat will vary a lot from one individual boat to the next.

The problem is, all the parts for a complete refit add up to a lot. Volume boat manufacturers get these parts cheaper.
Engines, masts, deck gear, sails... the list is long.

There is a lot of skilled labour in making an old boat look as nice as new. That is expensive.
Making a production run of 10 new ones is more efficient.

There are two things which drive spending big money on boats, racing and the charter market.
In the UK, sea schools are a big part of the charter market, they seem to want 36ft to get 5 paying bodies on?

I have a fairly cheap 30+ year old boat. If I were going to invest more in a boat, I'd either be looking to race it, or I'd want more 'comfort' for periods aboard. I'd don't see a lot of MABs about which would be much good for either, however much you modernise them.

It's easy to fill magazines with airy thoughts, but the reality is, refurbing old stuff, whether it's a washing machine, a car or a yacht is usually hopelessly uneconomic, with exceptions for odd extremely sought-after items and some amateur cases.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I'm not sure that doing this commercially would be economically viable. Of course it would depend upon the level to which he modernisation was taken, but it's not just the cost of replacement/refurbishment of fixtures and fittings but also the cost of labour, which may well bring the re-sale price close to that of a new build.
DIY restoration can be sort of cost effective if one has the necessary skills and time, as the labour element can be ignored (to an extent) but even with this, if major items need replacement the prices of some items can be eye-watering plus the added 20% VAT.

 

[wonkywinch]

I've wondered why some of the camper van conversion companies haven't moved into the boat refurb market. The Ikea look is in vogue (guilty of it myself) and an interior refit along the lines of a van fit out.

 

[steveeasy]

old boats is a loose word. Prices fluctuate according to demand and indeed individual tastes. Some boats become less desirable while others not so. There is no simplistic slide rule valuation on old boats.

What may be useful is what share of the market certain age boats are of the market which is vast in it self in range.
At the end of the day a boat is a boat. Seriously think we spend far too much time worrying over what is cheap and what is expensive. If you want a new boat and want to pay £250,000 then go for it. If you prefer to spend 20,000 and refit it for another 20,000 or more then do so. Over 10 years your loose maybe 40% of the new boat value and an unknown amount on the old boat value. Either way like most things it depends partly how much you’ve got in your pocket and how long your arms are.
Steveeasy

 

[jac]

I think the issue is the size that makes this paradox.

As the OP laments, very few new 28-34s are being made despite their popularity on the 2nd hand market for the simple reason that they can;t be made economically - far cheaper to buy a nice 30 footer for £30k sink £15k into and walk out with a nice boat for <£50k . But sub 28 feet, it's a very niche market. The old proper cruising boats for a family of 4 in a 25 footer ( e.g. Sadler, Contessa) is just not wanted as they don't have the space to provide the comfort that modern families expect so values of those fall. That leaves a market for sub 25 foot trailer sailers or racers that may be sustainable / exploitable by commercial builders.

 

[B27]

I think the issue is the size that makes this paradox.

As the OP laments, very few new 28-34s are being made despite their popularity on the 2nd hand market for the simple reason that they can;t be made economically - far cheaper to buy a nice 30 footer for £30k sink £15k into and walk out with a nice boat for <£50k . But sub 28 feet, it's a very niche market. The old proper cruising boats for a family of 4 in a 25 footer ( e.g. Sadler, Contessa) is just not wanted as they don't have the space to provide the comfort that modern families expect so values of those fall. That leaves a market for sub 25 foot trailer sailers or racers that may be sustainable / exploitable by commercial builders.

How many of those 'proper old cruising boats' e.g. Contessa were in fact originally bought with at least some racing in mind?

 

[ylop]

I've wondered why some of the camper van conversion companies haven't moved into the boat refurb market. The Ikea look is in vogue (guilty of it myself) and an interior refit along the lines of a van fit out.

I might be wrong about how they work - but do the relatively high-volume ones not focus on a very specific model? So they have template designs ready to go for specific models of van and its just a case of fitting them out rather than design/bespoke cutting each one? Too many similar but not identical yachts around to make that easy? New (probably poorer quality) furnishings in an older boat won't get you more light, more headroom, more space that you need to make it comparable to a modern ben/jen/bav etc - and you'll probably be thinking about new rigging, sails, winches etc to make it a good "package".

 

[mattonthesea]

When I first entered the yacht owning market I came across a formula for costs. Fifty percent of purchase price for the first year and ten percent per year after. It doesn't matter if you are buying new or second hand. As a rule of thumb I think it works.

For my second boat I did a spreadsheet of costs for all the things I could think of that would need either replacing or purchasing and maintenance, just to get ready for my type of sailing. (Yes I'm a spreadsheet geek.) I was surprised to find that, in my budget, 70s market, that going from 32ft to 36ft would approximately double the cost right from purchase point. Quadruple that for 40ft.

It would appear that the costs of replacing gear make it proportionately much more expensive to kit out a small yacht and the resale price will not cover that expense. It is less so for larger yachts but the resale price will now be comparable to newer, shinier yachts.

 

[jac]

How many of those 'proper old cruising boats' e.g. Contessa were in fact originally bought with at least some racing in mind?

Oh i'm sure they were. But who would realistically buy an old contessa 26 for a spot of racing now.

 

[justanothersailboat]

"modern families expect more luxury" - please don't tell mine, thanks.

 

[B27]

Oh i'm sure they were. But who would realistically buy an old contessa 26 for a spot of racing now.

Someone who fancied a crack at that Gold Roman Bowl maybe?

The point is, the great older designs people whitter on about as classic cruisers were often never optimised for cruising, particularly 'family cruising' in the first place, so it's no great surprise that they're not first choice now.

Having looked around a couple of harbours since this thread started, I think there are an awful lot of older boats out there which mostly just need a seriously good clean, some new ropes and a backlog of routine maintenance getting all the fittings to work and replacing small items.
There don't seem to be as many people willing to get on with this as there are older boat owners who can afford to pay for a mooring and not use the boat or even spend time fettling it.

 

[Bobc]

My boat had just made the grand old age of 20.

A couple of years ago, I looked at maybe upgrading to a newer one, but to get anything similar sized with none of the "getting old" problems (so something less than 5 years old), was going to cost me over £100k.

So I spent £30k on a new engine, prop, standing and running rigging, sails, fridge, plotter/radar/AIS, sink taps, seacocks, etc., etc.

I now have a boat which is as good as a 5-year old one for a fraction of the price of changing.

However....when you start looking at old 70s and 80s boats, it's simply not worth it, because the cost to buy a newer one is only another £25k, which is what it will cost to make the old shed better, and still have an old, cold, cramped boat.

 

[Praxinoscope]

However....when you start looking at old 70s and 80s boats, it's simply not worth it, because the cost to buy a newer one is only another £25k, which is what it will cost to make the old shed better, and still have an old, cold, cramped boat.

Can't agree with you here, my present boat is now 42 years old, in excellent condition and since buying her have only spent about £2k to get her as I want. As the choice of modern boats in the 24/26' range is very limited and easily into the region of £30k + it makes sense to find a good oldie and spend a little but not an eye watering amount to meet ones specs'. I wouldn't describe my Sadler 25 as cold or cramped, (unless you start comparing it with 30'+) it suits me and boats of similar size suit a lot of us, look at the popularity of Centaurs etc.
As for old, people still coment on how good she looks and are surprised when told her age.

 

[Bobc]

Can't agree with you here, my present boat is now 42 years old, in excellent condition and since buying her have only spent about £2k to get her as I want. As the choice of modern boats in the 24/26' range is very limited and easily into the region of £30k + it makes sense to find a good oldie and spend a little but not an eye watering amount to meet ones specs'. I wouldn't describe my Sadler 25 as cold or cramped, (unless you start comparing it with 30'+) it suits me and boats of similar size suit a lot of us, look at the popularity of Centaurs etc.
As fo old, people still coment on how good she looks and are surprised when told her age.View attachment 164922

We're not talking about boats like yours though; you've obviously taken good care of her. We're talking about the smelly mouldy old Centaur that's up for £5k, and would need a new engine, new rigging, new sails, new electronics, new cushions, new headlining, etc., to bring it up to scratch. It's simply not worth doing.

 

[Praxinoscope]

We're not talking about boats like yours though; you've obviously taken good care of her. We're talking about the smelly mouldy old Centaur that's up for £5k, and would need a new engine, new rigging, new sails, new electronics, new cushions, new headlining, etc., to bring it up to scratch. It's simply not worth doing.

But you could still referb' such a Centaur for well under what a similar sized modern boat would cost (if you could find one) and end up with a perfectly usable boat that will give years of pleasurable sailing.

 

[Daydream believer]

My boat had just made the grand old age of 20.

A couple of years ago, I looked at maybe upgrading to a newer one, but to get anything similar sized with none of the "getting old" problems (so something less than 5 years old), was going to cost me over £100k.

So I spent £30k on a new engine, prop, standing and running rigging, sails, fridge, plotter/radar/AIS, sink taps, seacocks, etc., etc.

I now have a boat which is as good as a 5-year old one for a fraction of the price of changing.

Great minds think alike ( yes I know about fools!!) My boat was 20 this year & like yours she has had new rigging, furler, engine etc. I cannot say that she looks as good as a 5 year old boat though.
I did look at a larger newer boat a couple of years before covid, but at the time I felt that having a boat that I knew well & had all the bits I wanted really outweighed the risk of going through the "finding all the problems" process all again. I have had to upgrade , but these have been manageable- sort of
If looking for a boat, I certainly would not want anything any older than 20 years though. The varnish will begin to age. Arisses lose the surface finish, Doors & table get scratches, inspite of all the care. Furnishings can be expensive to change. I take everything out of the boat home each year & the wife valets the cushions. They still are beginning to show signs of wear. I reckon they have 3-5 years & then I am in for a couple of £K or more to replace. I could not just do part.

 

[Daydream believer]

But you could still referb' such a Centaur for well under what a similar sized modern boat would cost (if you could find one) and end up with a perfectly usable boat that will give years of pleasurable sailing.

Useable certainly. Smart inside- probably not. Modern- definitely not
Let's face it. It is nice to have all the gizmos & to have a good looking boat with bits that WORK first time & running rigging that runs freely. Sails that drive the boat forwards, not sideways.. You never really get that with most old boats. There is always just one more job that needs doing. One more part that will be changed at the end of the season.

 

[Bobc]

But you could still referb' such a Centaur for well under what a similar sized modern boat would cost (if you could find one) and end up with a perfectly usable boat that will give years of pleasurable sailing.

I disagree. Buy the boat for £5k. Then you spend:-

£5k on new sails
£2k on new rigging
£5k on a new engine
£2k on new cushions
£2k on new instrument.

So in total you've spent £21k in total.

For not much more, you can have a 90s/2000s 30 footer with a double aft cabin and hot water.

 

[Bobc]

I cannot say that she looks as good as a 5 year old boat though.

Funnily enough, I get loads of compliments on our boat now (never used to), at how it's better than the new things, and "it's a shame they don't make them like this any more".

I guess they must have their rose tinted glasses on ;-)