Boat sharing

[Nick_H]

But the bareboat coat for a 40ft flybridge has got to be €5000+ a week surely so massively more than I expect to spend.

OK, but if you share with 3 other owners you'll only get 2 weeks in peak season, and 2 in mid season, so that's the cost for comparison. If you charter it's a known cost, no potential for big repair bills, and no depreciation, plus you'll probably get as much boating in 3 weeks charter as you would in 4 weeks of ownership, because you'll spend some time sorting problems on your shared boat. Finally, if you're buying a 10+ year old boat, and using it for 16 weeks each summer, things will fail, so you have to factor in the risk of being left with an unusable boat for some or all of your holiday with no-one to pass the costs onto.

It's important to go into it with your eyes open. Your costs wont be limited to a quarter of the predicted annual running costs, you'll also be sharing some extra repair and re-fit costs, which could be significant. You're also unlikely to get 4 weeks uninterrupted use of the boat each year with no problems.

By way of example, i'm just starting our annual holiday and the generator isn't working properly, so i'm going back to port to get it fixed. Last year the exhaust elbow failed and I lost almost a week. The year before that the battery charging system failed and I lost 4 days.

 

[petem]

One thing which I think would help smooth over some of the very real points KevB raises would be to employ a guardiennege service to be used between each period of use.

That would ensure that everyone arrived to find the boat in a uniform standard and much more important than even that, each new arrival would not spend the first few days of use thinking darkly either that the last sharer was a slut or an OCD sufferer.

I agree. Can anyone hazard a guess as to the gardiennage costs for a season of fortnightly or monthly exterior washes and the cost for a turnaround (clean inside and launder bedding)? Assume 40ft boat, Mallorca.

Does anyone know of firms that offer this in Cala D'Or that I could get quotes from?

 

[MikeA]

I'm sure it varies but I was told around €100 per foot per year, what you get for that will also vary considerably from one company to the next.

 

[MikeA]

Laundry will also need to be factored in, on a 40 foot boat for bedding and towels with quick turnaround you're probably looking at around €100-150 per handover.

 

[Anders_P42]

What happens if engine pops with £25K bill, do you trust the other three owners can drop £6K on the repair short notice? Sorry gov, haven't got a spare £6K right now, kids uni fees just come through...

 

[MapisM]

OK, but if you share with 3 other owners you'll only get 2 weeks in peak season, and 2 in mid season, so that's the cost for comparison. If you charter it's a known cost, no potential for big repair bills, and no depreciation, plus you'll probably get as much boating in 3 weeks charter as you would in 4 weeks of ownership, because you'll spend some time sorting problems on your shared boat. Finally, if you're buying a 10+ year old boat, and using it for 16 weeks each summer, things will fail, so you have to factor in the risk of being left with an unusable boat for some or all of your holiday with no-one to pass the costs onto.

It's important to go into it with your eyes open. Your costs wont be limited to a quarter of the predicted annual running costs, you'll also be sharing some extra repair and re-fit costs, which could be significant. You're also unlikely to get 4 weeks uninterrupted use of the boat each year with no problems.

By way of example, i'm just starting our annual holiday and the generator isn't working properly, so i'm going back to port to get it fixed. Last year the exhaust elbow failed and I lost almost a week. The year before that the battery charging system failed and I lost 4 days.

Very, very well said.
I understand it might sound as a paradox, but owning a boat actually makes more sense when you are time rich and money poor (as I am now!), because renting a boat to live aboard her for several months every year, THAT would be more expensive than actually owning the thing and bearing all the related costs.
Petem, make no mistake: unless the time you plan to spend boating can be measured in months rather than weeks, I really don't think that all considered you will eventually save money compared to rental - even with sharing.
You can still prefer to own rather to rent a boat of course - that's what I also did, when myself and swmbo were both working and could only manage 2/3 weeks of holidays plus a few long weekends.
But even then, I've always been fully aware that costwise it would have been smarter to rent the thing...

 

[matthewriches]

I couldn't do shared ownership. Again, too many things to annoy me. The way some people live lol

 

[petem]

What happens if engine pops with £25K bill, do you trust the other three owners can drop £6K on the repair short notice? Sorry gov, haven't got a spare £6K right now, kids uni fees just come through...

But actually this would be less of a problem than if I owned such a boat on my own (I don't have £25k lying around either)! Considering that the part shares in the boat will need to be paid by cash (no finance on the boat) then I would hope that each partner coming up with their share of any repair bills shouldn't be too much of an issue. Still, I accept that these are potential problem areas.

 

[Whitelighter]

I get what everyone says re: chartering. I looked at this and I couldnt make it work. For a start, actually getting costs out of charter companies is a pain in the neck unless you are ready to book right then. BCU do give their prices, but they dont have aboat that suits me - ill base it on the Targa 47 because its close ish.

So they say its from £800/day - i guess thats off season and since everyone is going on about peak season use lets assume the avergae is what - £1200/day?

Ill look at my use already this year.

4 days November
4 days February
12 days in April
4 days in june
6 days in july
22 days in August/Spetember

Total number of days 52 - so to charter the T47 (not as suitable as my boat to be honest, but newer) would be £62,400.

Now I reckon in a partnership I wouldnt use the boat much less. Ive only used half the summer period, so with 2 there is still a full 3 weeks of school hols left. We didnt use the boat for either half term though we did bag both easter weeks. The odd 4 and 6 day stints in between could be accomodated.

Ive opted to cut costs a different way - buying an older cheaper boat and basing myself somewhere cheap. Pete doest like older boats so this route is blocked for him.

So a 1/2 share in a 2003/04 Phantom 40 is going to cost him £60k. What is depreciation on a 13 year old boat? 5-10% a year? So on petes share probably £4k is lost capital. Plus he's losing interest on the money he could invest - 2.5% a year maybe, though less some tax of course. Lets say his capital loss/cost is £5k.

Mooring. 40ft. Cala D'or €12000/year? so thats £10,000, or £5000 per share.

Cleaning €200 per visit, so lets base it on my usage and thats 6 trips at €1200, or £1000.
Servicing - one engine each so £1500.
Antifoul, annodes etc - another £1000.

Where are we so far? £13500.

Put £2500 in the pot each year for upgrades. Oh and £500 for insurance.

£16,500.

Ok, there may be some things I have missed but we are still a significant margin lower (nearly £50k) from chartering the T47. OK, so a P40 might be cheaper to charter, but even at say £800/day is £42,000 which is £25k more than the shared ownership option.

I can see all the arguements, but I think saying charteing is cheaper is not neccessaily true. It may well be more fun, less stress, less hassle, more flxiblity, different boat each time etc etc. Im not saying it doesnt have benefits but from a cost point of view shared ownership has a lot going for it.

My parents successfully shared a range of boats for over 20 years with no problems - you do the hard work setting the share up and finding the right people is key

 

[pan]

I've lost count of the number of friends & acquaintances who have asked me about buying a boat, the first thing I ask them is do they enjoy fixing things themselves, or are they someone who sees it as hassle & problematic, if not then I tell them DON'T BUY A BOAT under any circumstances!! Charter, preferably with a skipper.
Having boat shared in the past my experience is the sort of person you share with (see above) is more important than any rules you can think of, they have be both practical and want to treat the boat as their own. Irrespective there will be issues arise whilst they are using it and you have to feel comfortable that they have 'bust a gut' to ensure it's fixed before they leave, even so the best will in the world (NickH above, exhaust problem) you cannot guarantee everything will be fixed before you arrive. I know sharing can work as it has for me previously before, but it really depends on the like minded people involved, not any rules.
Working out the use we have with our boat, financially it would be better to charter, but my enjoyment is not solely confined to the time spent at sea, my time spent 'fiddling' is hugely therapeutic and enjoyable, a complete diversion from my business & work!
Head says charter... heart says own it!

 

[jfm]

Pete, as others have said sharing works well if you have the right partners. I did it with both p40 and sq58 as you know and it worked really well

Even with the right sharers you need some basic agreed terms IMHO and these are:

1. Divide out the calendar into weeks or fortnights or a bit of both. As disc previously this becomes the currency that people trade
2 limit the hours to 60 per third share per annum
3. Get a bank account (float) to pay for sundries. Just make cash calls now and again. Make sure the share owners are no any where near their financial limits in owning 1/3rd of the boat
4. Get a cleaner to do turnarounds and laundry and pay whatever this costs. Do not cut corners here and diy it. Buy multiple sets of towels and sheets if needed so that the cleaner can cope with fast turnarounds. We always allowed 1.5 days between turnarounds so a week of currency meant 5.5 days on board
(12 days if a fortnight)
5. Don't allow share splits ie one share held by two people. Also have an agreement about "owner on board all the time" ie no one can lend to their mates.
6. You can insist people fill the fuel on leaving but it will never work and you'll hate it. So if there is no fuel metering then fill up when empty and divide the fuel bill by miles run, and by genset hours if you wish. Won't be perfect but will be close enough.
7. Have a standard form log book custom made with the columns you need to run the syndicate. Each user must fill in engine hours, miles logged, genset hours, and notes on where visited and any technical glitches.
8. Try to save hours and fuel by coordinating: family 1 takes it to Ibiza and flies back to uk; family 2 does reverse

I don't reckon much to annual meeting to discuss cruising plans etc. Waste of time IMHO. Other than that it is down to the people being nice so choose wisely but I reckon it works incredibly well if you get lucky with the right people. I'd do it again in a heartbeat if at the same life stage/ money stage. Best of luck

 

[BruceK]

Can I ask, in a syndicate when a major bill comes up because of user negligence or fault, who covers that?
What happens if the next user loses his planned slot because of unscheduled maintenance caused by previous user?
Accidents can and do happen, negligent or not, how does the equal share work then?

 

[Whitelighter]

Can I ask, in a syndicate when a major bill comes up because of user negligence or fault, who covers that?
What happens if the next user loses his planned slot because of unscheduled maintenance caused by previous user?
Accidents can and do happen, negligent or not, how does the equal share work then?

You have to pragmatic about that. What happens if your boat gets hit by a thrid party before your two weeks holiday? Mechanical failures can happen anytime as well.

Of course if they happened regularly then it would need to be addressed but at the end of the day that is a compromise you make by not having to fork out for 100% of the boat and running costs. The syndicate my folks have been in the agreement was if you bend it your pay to repair it (from an accident pov) - just as you would if you owned the boat outright. If its a large enough bump to involve insurance then you pay 100% of the excess.

That is why it is critical to get the right people into the syndicate in the first place.

 

[BruceK]

I can accept that, I was thinking along the lines of cooking an engine or similar that is not a quick, easy or cheap (as in can a member take the financial knock) replacement and not always covered by insurance. It's the season party killer element of a syndicate that would really give me the jitters. Were I at fault and even if not but on my watch, I would feel honour bound to make good asap and whereas I could put my own boat on the hard and ease the financial strain somewhat in that I have a boat I can afford to own and time to repair is my own loss and financial easement, such may not be the case in a boat I couldn't afford to own nor take financial easement over a period of time. i.e. If you cant afford the boat in the first place such a setback could well fall onto the syndicate as a whole to rectify, voluntarily or not.

 

[Whitelighter]

I think that is a risk you have to accept - I think its pretty unlikely to happen but the possibility is there.
If you dont accept that risk, you dont share.

Also, it's not always a case of not being able to afford the boat at all - think of it another way, bacuase you havent got the full value tied up in the boat it might be easier for you to come up with the money for a repair.

I complete engine failure for most boaters, be they sole owner or elsewise is going to be pretty catastrophic.
Also, with the load spread on serviciing and maintenance expensive jobs are less likely to be skipped (since the cost per share is drasticly reduced) so perhaps failures less likely.

Its not for everyone, but it does work very well for many people

 

[BruceK]

I'm not decrying it at all. I'm interested in how the mechanism would work and dealing with my own reservations in following suite. It does make a lot of sense financially, it's getting over that childish possessiveness one develops for a boat vs commodity / passport to lifestyle that bends my head to be honest. <hangs head in shame, but there you go, it's true>

 

[Anders_P42]

But actually this would be less of a problem than if I owned such a boat on my own (I don't have £25k lying around either)! Considering that the part shares in the boat will need to be paid by cash (no finance on the boat) then I would hope that each partner coming up with their share of any repair bills shouldn't be too much of an issue. Still, I accept that these are potential problem areas.

I see your point ref big bills shared.

 

[jfm]

...the part shares in the boat will need to be paid by cash (no finance on the boat) ...

Nothing wrong with cash but there is no intrinsic reason why you cannot have finance on a shared boat, including differing amounts borrowed by different sharers. You can deal with someone's default by an automatic transfer of their ownership interest to those who step in and pay off their finance. I did this with my Sq58 and indeed bought out a partner by mostly paying off his finance rather than giving him money.
People can get awfully concerned about pledges of their boat against someone else's finance but really these things are simple to deal with.
Just saying - nothing wrong with all-equity boat purchase of course

 

[jlandells]

I recently bought a 20% share in a Bavaria 29 motor cruiser. Given that it's just had to be lifted to have a gearbox issue looked at, the thought that I'm only going to see 20% of the bill is comforting!

For our scheduling, we use a site called Nautical Monkey. The usage policy is based on a certain number of slots being available each month, which are then shared 5 ways. I'd encourage you to take a look at it to handle your bookings.

 

[petem]

Thanks and good look with your boat share!

I've had a look at that site, and wonder what it gives you that a shared Google calendar wouldn't?