Boat Shares / Co-ownership

[Guest]

I am thinking about entering into a co-ownership scheme; there have been a few advertised recently. Does anyone have any experience of these schemes and can they recommend any or have suggestions on pitfalls and benefits

Thanks

 

[byron]

Co-ownership is a nightmare. I have never taken that step before but have seen good pals break up because of it. Too many pitfalls, who left the Galley grubby? who didn't check the oil? which Yard do we get repairs done? naaah! forget it.

©2001

 

[BarryD]

I've been offered a 50% share in a boat,. My thoughts on the matter would be that co-ownership only works in a high spec boat - radar, chart plotter, three cabins etc.. otherwise when you want to personalise and add the glittery bits you will always be in dis-agreement over the spec to upgrade too. For the moment I'm steering clear of it.

Barry D.

 

[kimhollamby]

There was a recent article on the subject in MBM along with some owner feedback. Did you see it? If not, send me a mail and I'll find the reference for you.

 

[Guest]

I joined a boat privately owned (as opposed to a corporate) Syndicate 3 years ago, and have been quite happy with the outcome. In fact, I am now running it, having been elected by the other members.

The first thing you have to do is some inner searching of your own soul and personality, to decide whether the financial advantages of shared ownership can offset some of the petty irritations that can and will inevitably arise within such schemes.

My advice would be decide on the type of craft you like and stick with it, don't buy into anything just for the sake of it.

Have a very good look at the agreement you are getting into, maybe have a Solicitor look it over. If there is no proper written agreement don't go there!

Checkout the Insurance, Boat condition, where it is based and expected yearly running costs, also how decisions are made regarding upgrading or buying new equipment and how these costs are shared.

Get to know who else is in the partnership before buying, it is very important that you can get on well with these people, you don't need to be best friends, but it is important to establish a business relationship because that is what you are entering into.

You need to know what experience/abilities the other members have, as they will expect you to prove your abilities to them, before letting you join. It is probably a very expensive piece of eqipment you are buying into, so getting it wrecked or damaged is in no one's interest.
Generally speaking, shareschemes are not for newcomers and getting accepted into an established scheme would be difficult and present enormous pressures.

Make sure there is a formal notice of when the boat is available to you and what the procedure is for using vacant periods.

And when on board, remember it is not your 'boat'. It may feel like it when you are on it and that's the joy of "shared" schemes, but don't start altering things or personalising it to your taste before obtaining everyone's consent. They may well like things left the way they are.

We insist that everyone leave the boat in 'boatshow' condition for the next oncoming crew and that fuel tanks are full ready to go.
We have checklists to cover daily, weekly and handover maintenance isssues and maintain a full technical log so that everyone is aware of the status of the boat.

Take your time, don't rush, or be rushed, into the decision.

This may sound a lot of hassle but the benefits are worth it, if you do your homework first!

Good Luck, Peter

PS. Let me have your email address if I can be of further help to you

 

[jfm]

I am in several (simultaneously!). All privately run, 3 people types. Personally I would not join the commercially run "timeshare" schemes

To state the obvious, the private schemes work fine provided everyone agrees. I imagine they're a nightmare if people disagree, never had that prob.

You need a legal agreement but don't overestimate it's power. It's only useful purpose is to make people feel comfortable and record the stuff you agreed to. It is not a solution if things go wrong. I mean, if someone breaches the rules then waving the agrement is of little use, not least because most of them are badly worded and contain just a list of "You will do this bla bla" but no remedies in case someone doesn't.

So it's all about people agreeing. Assuming the boat is ok (that's easy, though beware non CE Montegos) I suggest you need to figure out the mindset of the potential partners, decide if they are same philosophy as you. For my part I take the view that the potential culture clash could be financial. Frexample, if one person is in the club becuz of £saving and is up to financial limit, and another is in it becuz not enough time to look after boat full time or something, but is not financially stretched and wants to upgrade to flash new electronics each year, you will disagree. Likewise if someone wants to diy and another wants all servicing done by professional suppliers, you'll disagree. And if one person, (say, the type who splits a restaurant bill when dining with friends) when s/he receives a cash call for share of fuel burn, whereby the diesel cost is split say according to logged miles, replies that he travels more slowly than his partner(s) and with lighter loading so his mpg is higher so he should pay less, then there will be disagreement.

Basically it works, provided all partners are well qualified so as not to ding the boat, not financially stretched so as not inclined to argue about why someone filled it at 30p a litre when the place round the corner was offering 28p, and are very laid back and relaxed about finances in general.

But all the above is qualified by it being my personal choice of how I want to sail, upgrade the boats, maintain them, etc. You could decide totally differently, eg all maintenance diy with an agreed split of the tasks. That's totally fine, the only point I'm making is that everyone has to share same philosophy, and no written agreement will help you on that

Good luck, let us know how you get on. What kind of boat share (and what budget, if you dont mind saying) are you looking for BTW?

JFM

 

[Guest]

Thanks very much for all the great input.

Some extra info:

I was/am looking to invest in a good quality 48-55ft boat to keep in the med and liked the idea of being able to get a larger or newer boat for the budget I have (about 150-200,000) rather than go down in size to 40ft. My thinking on the commercial providers that it would help to find 'like-minded' in the fact that maintenance and upkeep would be outsourced by everyone by default. Probably a more expensive way of covering the running costs, but one that to me (as a relative novice to this) worth looking into.

On specific boats, I particularly liked Princess 50/52 and Azimut 46s when looking at SBS.

 

[jfm]

Sounds good. I think that if you place an ad saying you want to form a x3 syndicate to buy an Azi 46 (nice boat by the way, fantastic mid cabin, loer helm, nice Cat engines, just choose the furnishings carefully as a lot of them are yuk) or Princess 50 (also nice, better bathrooms than the Azi), you might get high response. Might even be interested myself. Mooring in the med is the hard bit I believe, Matts the expert (er... and landlord) round here.

With your non diy approach you might be thinking along same lines as me. The hard bit was how to make sure other partners had same philosophy. I checked it out by (a) going for a beer and making sure they didn't flinch when buying more rounds than they should and dont split the food bill (b) ask em about how flash radar and electronics they would like, get a feel for whether they want the best or are compromisers (c) insist no-one mortgages their 1/3 share, gotta be unencumbered

Good luck

JFM

 

[Guest]

Good idea. Not done it, but have seen some. All agreed with jfm.


1) re people, obv best to get together rather tahn be "thrown" together commercially.

2) 'spect problems with too many in group - too much pressure on the boat to be "perfect" all the time.

3) choice of boat sounds good - obviously important is resale. Shd be 3-cabin above 46 feet. Leather is bomb-proof, ages nicely instead of getting old like cloth and is "understood" by buyers who wd always buy cars with leather. Generator and aircon an absolute must.

4) Mooring in med is difficult -but only for skinflints. Buying one is best. Under 50' popular - tho above this and they get proportiantely cheaper wrt value of boat. Renting, 15m 400k boat cost 7k/year, but 23m £2m boat only £12k. For example, there's one (ok, two) in La Napoule, S France, I hear, for £98k for a 15m, ahem. Outright WIDTH of the boat is important, not length. They were half this five years ago. Note that if the boat is sold with 1 year of mooring - that might be all you will get, and then sorry your contract not renewed next year: each broker will have some moorings lettable for new peeps who buy a boat, who each assum that once the're in - they're in. In fact, once they're in, they're out in med with bigger volume of boats UNLESS (sometimes) you use nice expensive boat brokers guargiennage at 200 quid per month in med for 48 footer ouch.

5) Not sure if jfm's financial test of round-buying is utterly scienfic/exhaustive! Especially if you all try the same test, each buying three rounds of Krug until one of yes says "er is this next round necessary?" ...meanwhile jfm lying on floor gurgling "aha sshkinflint! yohrrr out, yah booger!!"

 

[Guest]

yes, it needs a newish boat - the more work needs doing the more disparate the ideas can be over how much can/should be spent. One will want to diy, other fullrestoration, another quick bodgeup. A new or near-new boat should be better.

 

[paulineb]

That\'s the easy bit done then.

That's the easy bit done then. Now how do you get the wives to agree on interior spec. Have you ever known 2 women agree on interior decorations of a house, let alone a boat ?

Pauline B

 

[Guest]

Re: Top tip

I never need to ask her any more, not since I spent almost an hour pre-training the kids to roll around on the floor laughing as she came out of fitting rooms in a shop five years ago asking "what do you think". V funny.

Anyway. Purple? Unfortunately you can't have purple, so blue? Well blue -ish. Bit of blue. But not too much. And Nice Kitchen with a stainless steel wotsit. You'll love it. Not forgetting the Bidet.

How are we doing?

 

[jfm]

Re: maths and stuff

Re Matts points

1. Yes, though a degree of arm's lengthness is good. I am friends now with co owners, but the boats are what we have in common, we weren't friends before buying the boats

2. Yes, keep numbers small. It only takes one to disagree (if you see what I mean) so increasing the headcount increases risk. I have only done twosomes and threesomes and found them good

3. Yep

4. Matt your maths is dodgy £12k for a 23m berth is nearly spot on proportional to £7k for a 15m berth. The bit that is disproportional is the cost/length ratio of boats, as wd expect, but berth cost is not a function of boat cost. Anyway, on another point, presumably you are long x2 on LaNap parking slots. Are those £ right? 7% yield on 98k? Not too bad axshully, esp as the £7k rate goes up a bit each year, right? How long is the lease for? 21 years or something?

5. Rumbled. Was worth a try, hic.

JFM

 

[paulineb]

Not bad, but ...

... what happens when she sees the wall lining and says "doesn't look as good now it's up. It'll have to be changed" and "the carpet's not as soft as it should be, please change the underlay". Mr B was faced with these exact problems, and after "negotiations" he could see my point of view.

Pauline B

 

[Guest]

Re: maths

The la napaoule 15m berth costs outright 98k, rents at 7k BUT there maintennace at 2k so not that good.

The 23m antibes berth 200k but rents at 10.5 k per annum if you can get annual, but usually you can't. La napoule is nearer the 12k pa, or 230k to buy.

See what you mean re size. But I mean the blimmin massive 45metre boats cost only 20 grand per annum in Antibes. Now that's not much isit? Especially when we haven't got one, so they should be more. Until perhasp we do have one, when they should be reviewed.

 

[jfm]

All down to State subsidies

Yes but in Antibes the prob is getting one. Paul Allen (Bill Gates #2) was reported in B'Int (a fine publicn BTW, can fully encourage everyone to get a subscription, or three. Go on, please) recently to have bort a 50mega yacht for $several million, just cuz it came wiv a long lease big berth on the swish part of Antibes. He never even saw the boat, immediately put it up for sale, minus berth. He just wanted the berth for his new Feadship.

But yes, £20k for a 45m seems amazingly cheap. Paul Allen story implies supply/demand has gone wrong. I guess the prices on these megaberths must be state regulated too, that's the only explan I can think of.

JFM

 

[Guest]

Re: IYC

As far as I kno, the Int'l yacht club (IYC) in Antibes completely separate, and only erm not many berths. Otherwise, tho, there are berths of all sizes for a price. Hanse bit of a heap, so "buying" it no big deal. Don't there are anystate regs at all. But there lots of cash deals, it seems.

 

[jfm]

Re: IYC

Ah that expalins it. I didn't know which boat it was, but your confirmation that it was the heap Hanse explains why it was reportedly only $6m for a 40m boat, which seemed v cheap at first sight

JFM

 

[longjohnsilver]

Re: Top tip

Aha what about the bath.......