Boat purchase Question.

[Fantasie 19]

Who pays for the lift ??

Boats currently in the water but needs lifting for a survey, so who should pay for the lift, current owner or should it be the prospective buyer who wants the survey ??????

TIA

Irrespective of all the wordage/advice above, I'd probably offer to go half in return for a copy of the survey..

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Irrespective of all the wordage/advice above, I'd probably offer to go half in return for a copy of the survey..

Are you not entitled to see it anyway (as a seller), if it is used for negotiating or pulling out the sale (by a buyer)? So why pay for half of something you will see anyway?

 

[Fantasie 19]

Are you not entitled to see it anyway (as a seller), if it is used for negotiating or pulling out the sale (by a buyer)? So why pay for half of something you will see anyway?

No reason to disagree with you, but why would you be entitled to see a survey someone else had paid for?

There's a lot of discussion here about rights and entitlements, almost like it's some legal battle - you're selling a boat and someone wants to buy it - all I'm saying is a little a bit of quid pro quo might make the whole thing go a bit smoother???

 

[AIDY]

thanks all for the comments.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

No reason to disagree with you, but why would you be entitled to see a survey someone else had paid for?

There's a lot of discussion here about rights and entitlements, almost like it's some legal battle - you're selling a boat and someone wants to buy it - all I'm saying is a little a bit of quid pro quo might make the whole thing go a bit smoother???

I believe that the entitlement may lie within the sales contract "subject to survey" bit so it can be a contractual right. See ExSolentBoy's post above, paragraph 5.1 for an example.

I agree wholeheartedly that a bit of mutual understanding and a bit of cooperation goes a long way to help achieve a satisfactory outcome for both parties. The relationship between seller and buyer is probably more important than any other matter at the end of the day.

 

[Zagato]

Never rely on a sellers survey - people on here have mentioned how they have come a cropper on that one. Always have your own survey done and no the seller has no legal right to see it, in fact I think I am right in saying that other than for insurance purposes my survey had a clause in it saying that no third party should see it. This must be just for legal purposes/use! The contract was between myself and the surveyor...

 

[chinita]

I'm happy to do so if the vessel is supported on it's keel, so the slings are just holding it upright, as that's a much safer situation

I am surprised as I don't know of a yard which would permit that. Boats are either lifted and held in slings (to inspect hull, stern gear, bowthruster or whatever) or blocked off. Some yards do not even permit anybody on deck whilst the boat is in the slings. One yard on the South Coast would not even permit anybody on deck whilst the boat was in their shed. It was a steel boat and the surveyor was permitted to take ultrasound readings from outside the hull but that was it.

All to do with elfin safety I assume.

 

[jordanbasset]

Never rely on a sellers survey - people on here have mentioned how they have come a cropper on that one. Always have your own survey done and no the seller has no legal right to see it, in fact I think I am right in saying that other than for insurance purposes my survey had a clause in it saying that no third party should see it. This must be just for legal purposes/use! The contract was between myself and the surveyor...

I think that is fair but if you are relying on a price reduction as a result of the survey then I think it would be reasonable for the seller to see it. If I was selling a boat and a buyer was asking for a reduction in price because of the survey I certainly would want to see it. Certainly when I bought my current boat I used the survey to get a couple of minor issues put right, no question in my mind of not showing it to the buyer.

Will be interesting as I am now selling my boat so I will be at the other end. I've looked at my survey and could find nothing about not showing it to a third party but it makes it clear it is a contract between you and the surveyor.

 

[DanBurrill]

I am surprised as I don't know of a yard which would permit that. Boats are either lifted and held in slings (to inspect hull, stern gear, bowthruster or whatever) or blocked off. Some yards do not even permit anybody on deck whilst the boat is in the slings. One yard on the South Coast would not even permit anybody on deck whilst the boat was in their shed. It was a steel boat and the surveyor was permitted to take ultrasound readings from outside the hull but that was it.

All to do with elfin safety I assume.

Just to be clear, if a boat is resting on it's keel but slings are being used to keep it upright, then I'll look at the outside of the hull, take thickness readings (not a lot of point taking moisture readings if it's just come out of the water), examine the stern gear etc, but I still won't be clambering around on deck. That can be done with the boat in the water, either before or after she's been lifted. If the boat is hanging in mid air from the slings, then I'm not going to be anywhere where it might fall on top of me should any part of the lifting gear break or slip out of position, so there's no way I can perform a detailed inspection of the hull, etc.

If a boat's blocked off in a shed (and presumably not moving during the survey), then although in theory if somebody wanted some thickness (or moisture) readings taken then I'd take them (let's face it, I need the work). What I wouldn't do is label any part of my report a 'hull survey' or anything of the sort, as I don't see how you can survey a hull without seeing the inside as well as the outside (at least as far as it's possible to do on most boats).

IMHO, two of the biggest dangers of surveying a boat are either falling off it (into water or on to dry land), or having it fall on top of you. I've come close to having both of those situations happen to me, and I have no wish to repeat the experience.

 

[jwilson]

I am surprised as I don't know of a yard which would permit that. Boats are either lifted and held in slings (to inspect hull, stern gear, bowthruster or whatever) or blocked off. Some yards do not even permit anybody on deck whilst the boat is in the slings. One yard on the South Coast would not even permit anybody on deck whilst the boat was in their shed. It was a steel boat and the surveyor was permitted to take ultrasound readings from outside the hull but that was it.

All to do with elfin safety I assume.

I know three big boatyards within a few miles that are happy for people to be on deck once the keel is lowered onto a block of wood - boat held upright by Travelift slings. Have been on board several times whilst my boat lifted as well.

 

[RadiumRob]

Irrespective of all the wordage/advice above, I'd probably offer to go half in return for a copy of the survey..

This happened to me a few years ago. Part way through a survey the surveyor had revealed enough faults to convince me the boat was a no-go as far as I was concerned, and offered a discount if the survey ceased then. I agreed with the owner to split the cost of the full survey and to share the report and it was completed in full. I paid for the lift out and the vendor (eventually and after repair work) paid for the lift back in.

It's an expensive business that sharpens the mind when looking at potential boats.

 

[chinita]

Have been on board several times whilst my boat lifted as well.

Me too, and you obviously need to be on board to bring the boat into the slings.

Whether you disembark via the travel lift or by ladder depends on the equipment used. The points I am trying to make are:

1. A proper assessment of the integrity of a cored deck cannot be made with the boat in the water. The boat needs to be on a firm surface offering resistance.

2. A meaningful survey cannot take place during a one hour 'lunchtime' lift.

3. Moisture readings are of limited value when taken on a boat freshly lifted out of the water and held in slings.

The conclusion is that, in order for an accurate pre-purchase survey, the boat needs to be lifted, blocked off or put into a cradle.

IMO, anything less than that is a fudge, a cost cutting compromise which may prove a false economy.

 

[DanBurrill]

I agree moisture readings are pretty useless on a boat that's come straight out of the water. I'd go further, and state that they're of limited value in any circumstances when dealing with solid GRP laminates.

It is possible to do a meaningful survey of a hull and stern gear in a one hour lift if you're organised and work efficiently, the boat isn't too big (certainly up to around 30 foot or so), and the bottom is reasonably clean. You can do a visual inspection, tap test, and check the keel(s), stern gear, and through hull fittings. Make it two hours and you can take thickness readings of a steel or alloy hull. Personally I don't like to work under that kind of pressure, but if I have to, I will.

It is perfectly possible to determine the integrity of a cored deck with the boat in the water, or at least it's no more difficult than with the boat on land and securely blocked. Once I've got on board and the boat has reached an equilibrium, pressing, tapping, or doing anything else to the deck is not going to make the boat sink deeper into the water. You've quoted one source, a book by Paul Stevens that says that you can't. I know the book, it's sitting on the bookshelf next to me. I also have at least three other books on surveying boats next to it, by Ian Nicolson, Thomas Ask, and Allan Vaitses, that do not agree with that statement. Personally, I would tend to agree with the majority, especially when their position agrees with what I learned many years ago in my GCSE physics class.

 

[Crabman]

What tickles me is when the boat is lifted and surveyors take moisture metre readings straight away? What use are they when the boat is wet. How many surveyors take moisture metre readings from the inside if any ! and please dont reply if you are a surveyor trying to be a smart arse.

 

[Crabman]

It is perfectly possible to determine the integrity of a cored deck with the boat in the water, or at least it's no more difficult than with the boat on land and securely blocked.

A good surveyor should do both as a yacht on land is in tension and a boat in water is in compression and not under load. How many surveyors use thermal imaging to look at cored yachts as part of a survey? Have a cored boat also inspected under sea trial .Thats what I done when I bought my boat.

 

[DanBurrill]

It is perfectly possible to determine the integrity of a cored deck with the boat in the water, or at least it's no more difficult than with the boat on land and securely blocked.

A good surveyor should do both as a yacht on land is in tension and a boat in water is in compression and not under load. How many surveyors use thermal imaging to look at cored yachts as part of a survey? Have a cored boat also inspected under sea trial .Thats what I done when I bought my boat.

Defects should normally be apparent with the vessel on land or in the water, so either is sufficient. If somebody wants me to effectively survey the boat twice, I'm happy to do so, but they're going to have to pay for the extra time and effort involved.

I also agree that a sea trial is a good idea, but again it's time and therefore money, and a lot of people don't bother because of that (it does surprise me that somebody might spend the best part of £100,000 on a boat, but then quibble over a couple of hundred quid in survey costs, but it's their choice).

Earlier this year I did spend half a day with some other surveyors and a rep from Flir, learning about thermography and having a play with several different thermal imaging cameras. I'd love to offer this service to my customers, but the investment in a sufficiently high spec camera and the training to use it is significant (about £8,000). I'm not in a position to do that at the moment, and most of my clients wouldn't want to pay the extra for that service, so it's not something I can offer at the moment, but it's definitely an area I'm keeping an eye on, and if I can offer it in the future I will. With reference to cored decks, it can make looking for signs of water ingress a much easier job than crawling over the deck with a moisture meter (10 minutes rather than an hour or two, and much easier to make sure you cover everything).

My experience with cored decks is that they're either in good condition, or it's pretty obvious that there are problems - if there are defects (either separation of the skins or a breakdown of the core) then they get a lot worse pretty quickly. There is thus only a small window of time when a highly detailed examination will pick up a problem that would be missed by the typical survey, which tends to concentrate on the areas that are most likely to be the starting points of damage (cracks, penetrations through the decks, obvious deformation, etc).