Boat purchase Question.

[AIDY]

Who pays for the lift ??

Boats currently in the water but needs lifting for a survey, so who should pay for the lift, current owner or should it be the prospective buyer who wants the survey ??????

TIA

 

[sailorman]

Who pays for the lift ??

Boats currently in the water but needs lifting for a survey, so who should pay for the lift, current owner or should it be the prospective buyer who wants the survey ??????

TIA

the prospective buyer

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Who pays for the lift ??

Boats currently in the water but needs lifting for a survey, so who should pay for the lift, current owner or should it be the prospective buyer who wants the survey ??????

TIA

The way the BMF contract works is that you agree the sale first. The survey is then covered as below. Purchaser pays.

Standard BMF clauses:-

4 Survey and inspection
4.1 The Seller will make the Vessel and all the gear and equipment included within the scope of the sale available for inspection and survey by the Purchaser’s surveyors or advisers at a mutually convenient time and place for as long as shall reasonably be required to complete the inspection and survey.
4.2 Unless time for the survey shall be extended by agreement between the parties the survey shall be completed not later than 14 days from the date of this Agreement; if the Parties sign the Agreement on different dates time shall run from the date of the later signature.
4.3 At the Purchaser's request and at the Purchaser's sole cost the Seller will arrange to slip or crane the Vessel ashore for the purpose of this survey at a venue to be agreed.
4.4 Should the Purchaser or his surveyor wish to carry out any inspection requiring more than superficial non-destructive dismantling and limited removal of anti-fouling the Seller’s consent shall be obtained before such work is undertaken which shall not be unreasonably withheld.
4.5 The Purchaser shall be entitled, before or after inspection and survey, to require the Seller to perform a seatrial of the Vessel, her gear and machinery and all items included within the sale. The duration of the seatrial shall be proportionate to the cost and complexity of the Vessel and its systems but unless specifically agreed at the time of contract shall not be shorter than 1 hour nor longer than 4 hours. The Seller shall be obliged to insure the Vessel for the duration of the seatrial and shall provide any necessary crew. The Purchaser shall be entitled to be accompanied by up to two surveyors or advisers, any co-purchasers and not more than 1 member of his immediate family, subject to space constraints. The seatrial shall take place in reasonable weather conditions and not more than 5 miles offshore. Unless agreed otherwise the Purchaser and his party shall be responsible for supply of their own lifejackets and other safety equipment. The Purchaser shall be responsible for the cost of any fuel and oils consumed during the trials.
5 Defects
5.1 If the inspection, survey or seatrial reveals any defect in the vessel, its machinery, gear and equipment, which was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) collectively is equal to or exceeds 5% of the purchase price the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and seatrial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of any relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:
5.1.1 reject the Vessel, or
5.1.2 Require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the purchase price to enable the Purchaser to do so. In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.
For the purposes of this Clause 5.1 "completion of survey" shall mean the date of receipt by the Purchaser of a written survey report.

 

[Zagato]

I was given bad advice by a surveyor who said the seller pays for lift out, when I told the seller this I nearly lost the boat . I went with another surveyor in the end and waited a month until the seller was going to lift it out anyway for winter

I paid £250 for the survey and couldn't believe the detail - down to what type of wiring used in each harness, what type and size of pipes e.g sink pipe, drain pipes etc, rigging spec, EVERYTHING It was very detailed. He spent the whole day on it taking the boat apart with the owners consent who was present and happy to show off his boat.

When I sold the boat a different surveyor spent no more than two hours on it, charged more and I would be surprised if he managed to fill two sides of A4 He even cocked up the timing for the hull inspection (buyer paid for lift) which was no longer than half an hour at which point i had to get her back in the water and back downstream before the tide came in. He had to come back with me on the boat to do the rest of the survey and I had to give him a lift back to his car 45 mins out of my way - unorganised idiot Easy money for some £400 for a days work for him...

 

[chinita]

It is not just the 'lift'. For a proper survey the boat should be taken ashore and blocked off.

Any surveyor who attempts a survey with the boat in slings is bull****ting.

The lift back in should also be paid for by the buyer, whether or not he buys it.

 

[jonic]

Buyer pays and must return the boat to where she was and in the condition she was in. Sometimes if it suits both parties, and if all is looking good, they can agree to leave in/out after the lift depending on the buyers future plans.

But be clear in writing how this will operate if a problem shows up on survey and who will pay for what regarding blocking off fees etc.

 

[minkysailing]

It is not just the 'lift'. For a proper survey the boat should be taken ashore and blocked off.

Any surveyor who attempts a survey with the boat in slings is bull****ting.

The lift back in should also be paid for by the buyer, whether or not he buys it.

Chinita,

I am intrigued on what basis you claim most surveyors are bull****ting?... as a large percentage of vessel's if purchased with the vessel afloat are lifted for a hull inspection prior to being relaunched. Please enlighten the forum based upon clearly your extensive experience on this subject worldwide??

 

[chinita]

Chinita,

I am intrigued on what basis you claim most surveyors are bull****ting?... as a large percentage of vessel's if purchased with the vessel afloat are lifted for a hull inspection prior to being relaunched. Please enlighten the forum based upon clearly your extensive experience on this subject worldwide??

Firstly, I did not say 'most surveyors'. Read my post again.

Secondly, i did not refer specifically to a 'hull inspection'. That is, however an understandable assumption for the reason for an out of water survey.

Thirdly, when I did my course in Yacht and Small Craft Surveying we were taught that, in order to ascertain the integrity of the deck (often balsa core sandwich) it was essential that the boat should be out of the water and on a firm, unyielding, surface.

To test this afloat is nonsensical as the necessary pressure applied on the deck (even by something as fundamental as footsteps) will be absorbed by the medium in which the hull is suspended (water).

Edit: Don't take my word for it. This is an extract from the book written by my instructor:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...=surveying a balsa core sandwich deck&f=false

 

[minkysailing]

Chinita,

As most surveyors have surveyed a vessel ashore held in slings then you must be referring to 'Most' surveyors. This I am sure will include Paul Stevens. There is a big difference between classroom surveying and real life surveying.

 

[dombuckley]

I must admit, I've never had a problem detecting deck core delamination while afloat. But then again, I believe my feet exert a few more psi than Paul's !!

 

[chinita]

Chinita,

As most surveyors have surveyed a vessel ashore held in slings then you must be referring to 'Most' surveyors. This I am sure will include Paul Stevens. There is a big difference between classroom surveying and real life surveying.

I did not refer to anything! Don't twist my words.

Where is your evidence that most surveyors have surveyed a vessel ashore held in slings? Where is your evidence that such practice is acceptable when assessing the integrity of a cored deck?

Are you disputing what Paul Stevens has said in the link I gave - yes or no?

BTW, one of the main strengths of Paul Stevens' instruction is that it is 'hands on' rather than classroom.

 

[ukmctc]

Who pays for the lift ??

Boats currently in the water but needs lifting for a survey, so who should pay for the lift, current owner or should it be the prospective buyer who wants the survey ??????

TIA

well there a good question, you have had it surveyed fully as your selling it, and a copy is available to any buyer, all and any further surveys are paid for by the buyers if they want one and that includes lifting in/out.

 

[Laundryman]

Reply to original post

3years ago I viewed a yacht on a swinging mooring in Exmouth, 200 miles away from home. It was offered for sale through a very respectable broker. The yacht was only in average condition but was a desirable model. I agreed to buy subject to survey. Now the problem. Nearest lift available for survey was some way up the Exe, so I had to pay a boatyard to send 2 of their staff in their boat to collect the purchase boat and return to the yard. Due to tide constraint this had to be done out of hours. Boat kept overnight, surveyed then returned to its mooring again out of hours by 2 people plus yard boat for return journey. Cost me a small fortune. On top of that my 2 nights Hotel accommodation and 2, 400 mile round trips. The owner had made no effort whatsoever to present the boat at its best, it had previously been across the channel in bad weather and was still full of wet oillies, soaked messed up bedding, full bilge and generally in a mess. The survey was dire, the deal fell through and I was left severely out of pocket. The boat is still for sale through the same broker 3 years later. It may be the 'Custom' for the purchaser to pay for the lift but I think it should be 50/50. From here on, I will think very very seriously before I embark on a purchase.

 

[Zagato]

It's the risk you take when the seller doesn't want anything to do with the sale - it might be a reflection on the boat!! It wouldn't encourage me to buy the boat. If he had a good reason then fine but if he clearly is not helpful then it doesn't send a very good message! I wondered also if you had seen internal pictures of the boat before in a decent state or not! Unfortunately you have to do as much digging as you can before you even visit a boat let alone spend cash on doing surveys - people just don't describe things accurately which is just infuriating - a waste of time and money for the buyer

I took the day off work losing a days wages to sail my boat about 8 miles for the lift in/out and drive the surveyor back to his car

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

3years ago I viewed a yacht on a swinging mooring in Exmouth, 200 miles away from home. It was offered for sale through a very respectable broker. The yacht was only in average condition but was a desirable model. I agreed to buy subject to survey. Now the problem. Nearest lift available for survey was some way up the Exe, so I had to pay a boatyard to send 2 of their staff in their boat to collect the purchase boat and return to the yard. Due to tide constraint this had to be done out of hours. Boat kept overnight, surveyed then returned to its mooring again out of hours by 2 people plus yard boat for return journey. Cost me a small fortune. On top of that my 2 nights Hotel accommodation and 2, 400 mile round trips. The owner had made no effort whatsoever to present the boat at its best, it had previously been across the channel in bad weather and was still full of wet oillies, soaked messed up bedding, full bilge and generally in a mess. The survey was dire, the deal fell through and I was left severely out of pocket. The boat is still for sale through the same broker 3 years later. It may be the 'Custom' for the purchaser to pay for the lift but I think it should be 50/50. From here on, I will think very very seriously before I embark on a purchase.

With a boat in that location it is unreasonable to expect the purchaser to pay to take the boat to the lift.

I still believe the buyer should pay for the lift, but the owner should present the boat, at the lift. He could sail I there or pa for someone else to move it.

If he wasn't prepared to do that I would walk away.

If the survey is dire the BMF contract has a proper resolution.

When I sold my Rustler 36 I sailed I across to Lymington for the lift and survey. I was quite happ to pay the cost of that. The buyer paid for the lift and a short stay berth to complete the survey. He then sailed back with me to Yarmouth as his test sail, which he only got after a satisfactory survey.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Who pays for the lift ??

Boats currently in the water but needs lifting for a survey, so who should pay for the lift, current owner or should it be the prospective buyer who wants the survey ??????

TIA

The buyer. The broker that was selling me the boat advised this and it was clear from other documentation.

I would agree that there are poor surveyors out there, how common they are I would not know. Mine surveyed the yacht in slings, in the lashing rain, on a lunch time haul out which lasted 1 hour. He used a moisture meter and declared that the hull had moisture levels commensurate with her age. I now know that this is a worthless statement and the moisture survey a worthless survey. Later, I received the survey and it didn't have the valuation figure which was clearly asked for. I had already negotiated a price / fix of some items. The valuation came back the same as my offer which was strange because the owner had the yacht valued by another surveyor prior to her being offered for sale. I specifically asked for the engine to be inspected and assumed that it was, later I found that one engine mount rubber had sheered off. I found the whole survey experience rather shoddy.

My experience can be put down to naivety and I now know who I would use and not use in my area. I would say that up the Clyde way its 70/30 good versus bad based on nothing more than perceptions and bar talk - not a very robust way of determining ratios!

 

[chinita]

Was the Surveyor a Member of the YDSA or IIMS or RINA?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Was the Surveyor a Member of the YDSA or IIMS or RINA?

The survey is stamped and signed by a Chartered Engineer and Member of the Institute Marine Engineers, so he would have signed up to a code of professional conduct to be Chartered.

It's irrelevant now as far as I am concerned, I put it down to experience, I wasn't so blind to buy a wreck and be ripped off, but on matters of Osmosis I was expecting better than this and totally relied on the surveyor. However, I have had more than my fair share of professionals over the years being economical with the facts in clever ways that absolves them from any responsibility.

 

[chinita]

The survey is stamped and signed by a Chartered Engineer and Member of the Institute Marine Engineers, so he would have signed up to a code of professional conduct to be Chartered.

It's irrelevant now as far as I am concerned, I put it down to experience, I wasn't so blind to buy a wreck and be ripped off, but on matters of Osmosis I was expecting better than this and totally relied on the surveyor. However, I have had more than my fair share of professionals over the years being economical with the facts in clever ways that absolves them from any responsibility.

With hindsight it is a bit like trusting a dentist to do a cataract operation I suppose. We all live and learn. On another thread I mentioned the YDSA Membership grades which i believe to be the logical starting point for commissioning a 'surveyor'.

http://www.ydsa.co.uk/grades.html

 

[DanBurrill]

You won't find me clambering about on top of a vessel in slings for a survey, but that's not because I can't tell if the deck is solid, it's because I value my life and don't regard a vessel in slings as a stable platform. similarly, I won't survey the hull of a vessel hanging in the slings, because if I do I'm trusting my life to somebody else's lifting gear. If somebody wants a hull survey done on a quick (one to two hour) lift, I'm happy to do so if the vessel is supported on it's keel, so the slings are just holding it upright, as that's a much safer situation (of course having it properly blocked off is safer still).

Before I started surveying I had a couple of bad experiences working in boatyards when boats either became unstable under me (due to not being properly blocked off), or lifting gear failed and the boat came close to falling on top of me. They were very good at sharpening the mind and convincing me that no job is worth my life.