Boat off mooring - salvage claimed

[longjohnsilver]

Seems that your friends relationship has already been soured permanently so I wouldn't be worrying about how the unpleasant person who has impounded his boat feels.

This makes you despair of the motives and selfish actions of some of our fellow boaters. Fortunately someone like this is in a very small minority. I'd advise your friend to talk to his insurance company, suspect that if anything is actually payable, it will be a fairly nominal sum that reflects the fact that all that was required was a quick tow. Hope he gets it swiftly resolved and I'd like to think that karma will mean the tables are reversed sometime in the future.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Seems that your friends relationship has already been soured permanently so I wouldn't be worrying about how the unpleasant person who has impounded his boat feels.

This makes you despair of the motives and selfish actions of some of our fellow boaters. Fortunately someone like this is in a very small minority. I'd advise your friend to talk to his insurance company, suspect that if anything is actually payable, it will be a fairly nominal sum that reflects the fact that all that was required was a quick tow. Hope he gets it swiftly resolved and I'd like to think that karma will mean the tables are reversed sometime in the future.

 

[alan_d]

No - to be theft you need "permanently" so as there is a clear intention to return the property it is not theft (and therefore as far as I know not criminal).

Not theft, but perhaps extortion. "I've got something of yours and I'm not going to give it back unless ..."

 

[Floyd Raser]

When spoken to XX said "you will have to deal with my son - he wants a new mountain bike"

Is it just me or is there a clear context here I can't see? Spoken to by whom? Did he just say this and slam the phone down (presuming he was spoken to over the phone), or was it part of a wider, merry conversation which ended with this line? His son may be 6 years old and the sinster XX could have been hinting that a reward would be very nice in that form.

What was the general condition of the boat before the incident? How many boats are abandoned at their moorings and forgotten? If you found a scruffy looking boat on the mud isn't it worth a padlock to get a little more than a "Thanks mate!" from the owner? (Presuming he bothers to look for his boat).

There are always two sides to these stories. Could someone ring XX and ask him to come on the forum and explain his point of view? Now that would be interesting:encouragement:

 

[Lakesailor]

I have obviously been a bloody fool. I have recovered boats for people and not asked for any recompense. To make matters worse the promised arrival of a bottle of alcohol has never transpired. (The loan of a trailer did work properly)

I may take this more commercial approach in the future.

 

[pmagowan]

This is why I strongly believe we should carry cannon. Rules of the sea. If you want to argue you can do so with my broadsides you swine.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Two observations. Firstly, was this in tidal waters? If not all of the above is moot as the Merchant Shipping Act (which is what actually makes the international salvage rules applicable) does not apply I believe. Secondly, who says it broke free from it's moorings? Your friend could be very distressed to find that his boat was stolen?? At the very least I would want some proof that the vessel needed to be recovered and wasn't simply taken off her mooring. I'd also try and find out exactly who the salvor was - can the phone number be traced? If not maybe get a friend to call the number and see who answers? If it was a professional fisherman who had to give up a day's catch to save the boat then the fees would, not unreasonable, take that into account. If it was leisure boat who just grabbed it on his way back in then very little should be due (and hopefully he would be named and shamed locally, etc.).



If the Salvor does go to court with your friend establish salvages dues the following will apply as far as I can make out:



Article 13


Criteria for fixing the reward


1The reward shall be fixed with a view to encouraging salvage operations, taking into account the following criteria without regard to the order in which they are presented below —


(a)the salved value of the vessel and other property;


(b)the skill and efforts of the salvors in preventing or minimising damage to the environment;


(c)the measure of success obtained by the salvor;


(d)the nature and degree of the danger;


(e)the skill and efforts of the salvors in salving the vessel, other property and life;


(f)the time used and expenses and losses incurred by the salvors;


(g)the risk of liability and other risks run by the salvors or their equipment;


(h)the promptness of the services rendered;


(i)the availability and use of vessels or other equipment intended for salvage operations;


(j)the state of readiness and efficiency of the salvor’s equipment and the value thereof.


2 Payment of a reward fixed according to paragraph 1 shall be made by all of the vessel and other property interests in proportion to their respective salved values. However, a State Party may in its national law provide that the payment of a reward has to be made by one of these interests, subject to a right of recourse of this interest against the other interests for their respective shares. Nothing in this article shall prevent any right of defence.


3 The rewards, exclusive of any interest and recoverable legal costs that may be payable thereon, shall not exceed the salved value of the vessel and other property.


Assuming your friend has offered £50 or a couple of bottles of whisky then, unless the salvor incurred significant costs or losses in the process of saving the boat, I suspect the court will not be enamoured of having their time wasted and will probably award very little to the salvor and (fairly high) costs against both parties. The more your friend has offered the more likely the courts are to sympathise with him and less with the salvor.

Purely a personal opinion, IANAL, etc.

 

[Strolls]

As I recall, such tow are done under the terms of "Lloyds open form" salvage or some-such. Doesn't really apply to my little boat, …

The Lloyd's open form is just an agreement under which two parties agree to arbitrate the salvage fee, it doesn't magically usurp international maritime law.

My understanding is that the right of salvage has a long history, and it protects the interests of both parties.

It would be natural for someone, seeing it about to be smashed upon some rocks, to rescue an abandoned boat for himself.
It would be a waste to prohibit him from doing so, and see the boat smashed up, but it would not be fair to then hand the property back to an owner who would deny any recompense.

The time for two parties to negotiate a fair salvage settlement is not when the vessel is in peril with the clock ticking away, and thus a legal authority (a judge?) decides afterwards what is fair, considering the risks and so on.

I believe that the Lloyd's open form is just an agreement by the vessel owner and the salvor that an independent arbitrator will be appointed to determine the value, instead of going through the local courts.

The danger to the vessel needs to be real, but need not be immediate. If a boat is left stranded on a mud bank for a few days, the owner unaware of it, we can easily imagine it being carried away by a spring tide and damaged further. So it seems to me the danger is real.

 

[Strolls]

Not theft, but perhaps extortion. "I've got something of yours and I'm not going to give it back unless ..."

If the bloke is prepared to go to into court and say "I found the boat, and I reckon it's salvage", then surely it becomes a legitimate civil dispute.

"Extortion" is the sort of word that's thrown around far too readily - it's not extortion if the garage finds the problems with your car are more serious than originally expected, and it's not extortion if a newspaper discovers you're cheating on your wife and phones you up to comment on the story they're going to run tomorrow.

I'm sure the finder would be glad to hand the boat over immediately if the vessel's owner will sign a receipt for the salvage.
An admission by the owner that the boat is indeed "salvage" would strengthen his case.

Alternatively, I suppose a compromise could be reached where the owner writes a letter accepting the statement that the finder discovered the boat stranded on the mud at <location>, for them to take to small claims court.

Whatever the members of this forum think of it, salvage does seem to be a real thing, and whether or not this instance was a legitimate case of it is exactly what the legal system is for.

I would give the lad £100 rather than waste even 30 minutes of my solicitor's time with the matter.

 

[Lakesailor]

Alternatively, I suppose a compromise could be reached where the owner writes a letter accepting the statement that the finder discovered the boat stranded on the mud at <location>, for them to take to small claims court.

What right did the "salvor" have to move the boat from the mud?
For all he knew the owner knew the boat was on the mud and was arranging for it's recovery. For all he knew the owner may have put the boat there intending to inspect his rudder or prop.
It was not adrift. It was ashore, on the mud.

Did he see the opportunity to make a few quid? Yes, it sounds like it.

 

[mikefleetwood]

If the bloke is prepared to go to into court and say "I found the boat, and I reckon it's salvage", then surely it becomes a legitimate civil dispute.

"Extortion" is the sort of word that's thrown around far too readily - it's not extortion if the garage finds the problems with your car are more serious than originally expected, and it's not extortion if a newspaper discovers you're cheating on your wife and phones you up to comment on the story they're going to run tomorrow.

But it would be if they said "pay us £10000 and we won't run the story"

I'm sure the finder would be glad to hand the boat over immediately if the vessel's owner will sign a receipt for the salvage.
An admission by the owner that the boat is indeed "salvage" would strengthen his case.

Alternatively, I suppose a compromise could be reached where the owner writes a letter accepting the statement that the finder discovered the boat stranded on the mud at <location>, for them to take to small claims court.

Whatever the members of this forum think of it, salvage does seem to be a real thing, and whether or not this instance was a legitimate case of it is exactly what the legal system is for.

I would give the lad £100 rather than waste even 30 minutes of my solicitor's time with the matter.

As I said earlier (so did others) - offer him £50-100 and undying gratitude and see what happens. If that is accepted then end of story. Only if that isn't accepted does any of this discussion apply.

To fasten the boat to the mooring with a padlock, tends to suggest a commercial motive from the start, but, equally, it could be a just desire to make sure it didn't drift off again? To my mind, it's all about the order in which the "rescuer" wants things to happen - "pay me then I'll release your boat" is commercial and suggests he wants as much as he can get - the mountain bike (and they can cost more than the boat is worth!) is just to avoid HMRC - "I'll release the boat and you can pay me something later" is the action of a friend/neighbour.

 

[Nicholas123]

A friend of mine (who sometimes posts here) had his mooring fail last week. This waws a genuine failure. The boat is a 23ftr value £6000.

The boat ended up on the mud bank very near his mooring. Somebody had found it there and towed to a nearby mooring that he owns and has padlocked it to his mooring and left a note on the washboards "Do not enter. This vessel has been legally claimed for salvage by XX telephone xxxxxxx"

When spoken to XX said "you will have to deal with my son - he wants a new mountain bike"

Coastguard says that he spoke to the Receiver of Wrecks who advised him that this was not a wreck and that salvage was not payable. It was Lost Property and should have been reported to the Police but some finders fee might be payable. The insurers says they will pay a fee and that the finder needs to lodge a claim with them.

My friend wants to resolve this quickly so he can use the boat with his grandchildren in the holidays and he doesn't want huge aggravation with another mooring holder so hopes to agree a small fee as a thank you for doing him a favour.

If it is Lost Property and not reported to the Police and has been padlocked then is this theft? What do you think he should do?

Sounds like extortion by a very unpleasant character. I'd post his telephone number & go for generating publicity,the miserable swine!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

If you are a member of the RYA you may ask for legal advice.

 

[Halo]

The poor fellow says he cannot afford a present for his grandson. I would offer to pay him £100 for his efforts and in exchange for a statement of full and final settlement.

He must be a very unhappy and sad person to do this to you. I would mention this to any other boaters or his friends and relatives and suggest they may like to help him out as he is surely in dire straits financially. If he has money then the only conclusion they can draw is that he is a sad bar-steward.

 

[V1701]

I think my response would be investing in a pair of bolt crops & go get my boat back. Sounds like a total tosser unless we're not getting the whole story...

 

[yachtorion]

I think my response would be investing in a pair of bolt crops & go get my boat back. Sounds like a total tosser unless we're not getting the whole story...

...just make sure you leave a few quid to cover the lock and chain. Criminal damage don't you know.

Surely apart from updates from the O/P this thread was pretty much answered as of post 23? Brilliant example of what the forum can do, an answer from an actual lawyer for free....

 

[lenten]

east coast scotland---i towed in a 60 foot fishing boat on sea trials with some smartly dressed caterpillar engineers on board---after i tied up i waited hopeful that someone would come round and say thanks come and have a pint with us---nothing---mentioned it in the pub that night and they said that they would have expected that i would claim salvage----calm day--2 miles out of port---i might be entitled to1/4% of value---didn t claim --would have preferred a pint

 

[AngusMcDoon]

east coast scotland---i towed in a 60 foot fishing boat on sea trials with some smartly dressed caterpillar engineers on board---after i tied up i waited hopeful that someone would come round and say thanks come and have a pint with us---nothing---mentioned it in the pub that night and they said that they would have expected that i would claim salvage----calm day--2 miles out of port---i might be entitled to1/4% of value---didn t claim --would have preferred a pint

I towed a small creel type fishing boat with a dicky engine into Port Erin 2 years back. I didn't expect anything but was paid salvage in live lobsters.

 

[GrahamHR]

Use the free mooring provided by Mr Padlock and get yours repaired. Remove your boat when you need to with a pair of bolt cutters. If you feel kind leave a replacement padlock.

This sounds appropriate !

 

[BobnLesley]

"It is the worst utter scum who tries to benefit from the misfortune of others..."

No, in my experience it was the owner of the Spanish motor boat in the Mar Menor whose anchor rope broke whilst he was ashore, I dinghied across and managed to secure it with one of our spare anchors; on his return another motor-boater who'd watched (but not helped) me re-anchor the boat told the owner what had happened. He then came over, gave me a round of f***s for going aboard his boat without permission, then lifted our anchor and buggered-off with it!