Boat off mooring - salvage claim... Again?! Arrr!

[Fatbeard]

@ShinyShoe ... Arrr! It's the filth. Scatter ladz!
@Solent. "To make a bet, do it man to man, look someone in the eye, and shake their hand. Have the courage of your convictions and make yourself known "
I understood this as a request to place a bet and recorded it as such. "Well... not a problem! If that's an invitation I can walk you down to the cashpoint when you are forced to eat your words! Bet accepted. " Please make yourself clear, and consider the consequences of your next response.

 

[Fatbeard]

@ShinyShoe... You are correct in everything you say and were this boat on the official list of wrecks, or if this boat had been declared as lost (eg about to be wrecked or actually wrecked) by it's master (?) then the rules on the .gov page might apply.

What defines this boat as salvage are the following three pivotal points.
1) The incident occurred in tidal waters . Lakes and rivers are not subject to salvage.
2) An effort was made to secure the vessel.
3) This effort was successful, or partially successful and resulted in some obvious benefit. (not the exact rules from whatever the source is).
As the mantra goes... No fix, no fee.

Salvage is a common law process, sanctioned by the courts in order to encourage individuals and operators to risk their time, equipment and safety in order to secure another person's property.

It is my understanding that a tort is created at the point where the owner allows his vessel to break free of its moorings, endangering the vessel, all other equipment in the area, and the lives of anyone silly enough to put themselves in harms way to resolve the situation.

In terms of my attempt to register (boatname) as lost property... I was directed to do this. The thinking was that should the owner fail to come forward, the vessel would become mine, automatically, after 6 weeks, with a receipt from "the factory" to show "where I got it".
Should the owner have come forwards, the property would be demonstrated to be his, and title reverted to him.
My interests would have been well served too... as it says on a Found Property Receipt issued by (local "factory") here in my hand... " in the event of the loser or lawful owner hereafter claiming and proving his right to the property, subject to any deductions... or other reasonable deductions ...". It seemed cost efficient and would have served all parties well.

In terms of the broken lock, you will notice on closer inspection of my posts I do not say once that I thought someone was trapped inside.
I did, however say it was silly of me to cut it.
I also guided another user not to pursue the point as I am clearly in the wrong.
I laid out what my side say would be my mitigation in post #10.

In terms of my little stay aboard... It was a long walk back around to her. I did consider trying to return home for lunch, but knew it would be a stressy fail, so made the best of it until the next tide floated her off and I was able to secure her and leave.

In terms of **** ... I feel that you may be inferring that I might have exaggerated some aspect of my initial report.
That may be your opinion. Fair enough. How about it then? Shall we say £50?

 

[solent clown]

Up to £150 now, my dad is bigger than your dad, my dad is an astromaut and will shoot you with his ray gun.
Grow up ickle man. This is not junior school

 

[john_morris_uk]

Up to £150 now, my dad is bigger than your dad, my dad is an astromaut and will shoot you with his ray gun.
Grow up ickle man. This is not junior school

Perhaps one might remember not to bite back and not to feed trolls?

Keep the forum civilised please?

 

[Moderator]

Time for a reminder that personally abusive posts are not acceptable .

Any threats of physical violence, however carefully worded, will result in a long period in the cooler.

Keep the thread going : it's part of the boating world's rich tapestry, but do not let the discussion get out of control.

Moderator.

EDIT - that's two moderators for the price of one

 

[solent clown]

No violence, I was just going to talk his ears off I learned the technique from my wife. Wins every time. Big nag for the submission, and boom, she is victorious.

 

[solent clown]

I think personal experience of these kind of events and the people that surround them may have coloured my responses, so I will shut up, and put my outraged moral compass back in the box. Meanwhile, have a look at all this "treasure" all salvaged and cluttering the river. This used to be a very popular spot for dinghy and small boat sailing as there is a good slipway and car park around the corner


IMG_20180803_125945 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125937 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125933 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125927 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125923 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125657 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125502 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125409 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_20180803_125303 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_0248 by mark punksteel, on Flickr
IMG_0247 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

IMG_0228 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

 

[ShinyShoe]

Solent Clown...

If these boats are "salvaged" who is responsible for them?

By that I mean...

If my boat is in distress (lets assume it did actually need salvaged rather than broke its mooring and was going to lodge on a muddy bank without hitting anything)... ...a salvor saves the day and pops it on a mooring or anchor or whatever and claims he wants some money for the pleasure.

I decide I really don't want to / can't pay the £5k he wants.

Who now has the liability for the vessel? For mooring fees etc? As I read the law, pollution control is handled in a similar way to salvage. Not clear if that covers being rubbish in the water or just things like oil!

Does the Salvor own the boat and therefore carry liability for its future polution?

 

[solent clown]

Solent Clown...

If these boats are "salvaged" who is responsible for them?

By that I mean...

If my boat is in distress (lets assume it did actually need salvaged rather than broke its mooring and was going to lodge on a muddy bank without hitting anything)... ...a salvor saves the day and pops it on a mooring or anchor or whatever and claims he wants some money for the pleasure.

I decide I really don't want to / can't pay the £5k he wants.

Who now has the liability for the vessel? For mooring fees etc? As I read the law, pollution control is handled in a similar way to salvage. Not clear if that covers being rubbish in the water or just things like oil!

Does the Salvor own the boat and therefore carry liability for its future polution?

believe it or not, many of these boats are occupied or being prepared for occupation. Most belong to just a couple of people who rent them out. They grab any old wreck they can, fix what they can up, and let the rest rot. two years ago there were only around half a dozen, now there are many.

 

[sarabande]

Has Trotman escaped from the Thames ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Newbie a few weeks back was looking for a cheap boat to buy and do up to sail off into the sunset , someone point him this way , it be at less one out of the way

 

[ShinyShoe]

@ShinyShoe... You are correct in everything you say and were this boat on the official list of wrecks, or if this boat had been declared as lost (eg about to be wrecked or actually wrecked) by it's master (?) then the rules on the .gov page might apply.

Refresh my memory - which part of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 require the master to declare the vessel as lost?

What defines this boat as salvage are the following three pivotal points.
1) The incident occurred in tidal waters . Lakes and rivers in the UK are not subject to salvage.
2) An effort was made to secure the vessel.
3) This effort was successful, or partially successful and resulted in some obvious benefit. (not the exact rules from whatever the source is).
As the mantra goes... No fix, no fee.

That is all as defined in the Merchant Shipping Act and the Salvage Convention 1989.

But you are not following the MSA, You can't pick and choose what law to follow or not.

Salvage is a common law process, sanctioned by the courts in order to encourage individuals and operators to risk their time, equipment and safety in order to secure another person's property.

Are you certain about that. Salvage is defined in the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. By being defined, you may well find historical common law (which as such isn't defined) becomes hard to invoke.

It is my understanding that a tort is created at the point where the owner allows his vessel to break free of its moorings,

Can you provide a legal basis for this understanding?
A vessel drags its anchor. I come along - uninvited - and attach a tow rope while the crew are preparing to re-set the anchor. Can I claim salvage? The crew are asleep below unaware... Can I claim salvage?

In terms of my attempt to register (boatname) as lost property... I was directed to do this.

By Whom?

The thinking was that should the owner fail to come forward, the vessel would become mine, automatically, after 6 weeks, with a receipt from "the factory" to show "where I got it".

But do you want the property?
If the owner knows what you are up to, he can wait 29 days, claim it, then say you didn't notify the receiver of wrecks within the prescribed 28 days.
At best you end up with a boat you probably don't want. Which you can sell... for virtually nothing on ebay.

Should the owner have come forwards, the property would be demonstrated to be his, and title reverted to him.
My interests would have been well served too... as it says on a Found Property Receipt issued by (local "factory") here in my hand... " in the event of the loser or lawful owner hereafter claiming and proving his right to the property, subject to any deductions... or other reasonable deductions ...". It seemed cost efficient and would have served all parties well.

What do you actually want?
It feels to me like you've stopped the police from doing valuable work that might actually serve the community to meet your own ends.

In terms of the broken lock, you will notice on closer inspection of my posts I do not say once that I thought someone was trapped inside.
I did, however say it was silly of me to cut it.
I also guided another user not to pursue the point as I am clearly in the wrong.
I laid out what my side say would be my mitigation in post #10.

Its not mitigation. Mitigation is where you broke the law and want people to be lenient on you.
I explained why your actions didn't constitute criminal damage.
Get your defence right. Of course now you've said it was silly - you are banged to rights...

In terms of my little stay aboard... It was a long walk back around to her. I did consider trying to return home for lunch, but knew it would be a stressy fail, so made the best of it until the next tide floated her off and I was able to secure her and leave.

Step ashore from boat that has washed ashore. Walk up onto the bridge it nearly hit. cross bridge. Get back on your own boat.

In terms of **** ... I feel that you may be inferring that I might have exaggerated some aspect of my initial report.
That may be your opinion. Fair enough. How about it then? Shall we say £50?

So you can read English just not write it sensibly... "@ShinyShoe ... Arrr! It's the filth. Scatter ladz!"
Unless there is timestamped video of you swimming in 40knots to the boat, weather data to confirm it was 40knots, and video and a chart showing the location relative to the bridge etc, I doubt I will be satisfied with your evidence of the event happening as you report. Feel free to PM it over!

 

[A1Sailor]

I think personal experience of these kind of events and the people that surround them may have coloured my responses, so I will shut up, and put my outraged moral compass back in the box. Meanwhile, have a look at all this "treasure" all salvaged and cluttering the river. This used to be a very popular spot for dinghy and small boat sailing as there is a good slipway and car park around the corner


IMG_20180803_125945 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

Is it really necessary to post 12 images, totalling ~2.5MB when one might have sufficed?
You won't win many friends by doing so, particularly among those with low bandwidth issues.
Might you optimize them so that they are each about 50kb in size? Or delete some of them from your post?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Thanks for the 12 images and story around the yachts and renting them out. I find it very interesting seeing where old boats go.

 

[Fatbeard]

@Solent... you have a fine mind.

In terms of the sleepover, lets explore that.
1/4 mile walk through "balls deep" mud. Back through a sensitive area. Back to the bridge. Back to my boat. Stinking, sweating. And ... repeat in reverse order for the next tide. That would be bad enough. However, my intent was "back to the mrs for lunch" ... the same rough journey +back and forth to town.
Whats the problem here?
Were I in the right situation I might kick in a set of cabin doors in anywhere in the country, spend the night and leave. Worst case I will pay the piper with a B&E charge... so small fine and "don't do it again"? right?

The lock, mitigation.... It would become mitigation once I'm in front of the magistrate.
As you say I'm bang to rights.
I'm from a time and place where if you do something wrong, and you get caught, you own it.

Merchant Shipping Act 1995... etc ... ok you got me cant remember.

Our legal advice... best I can get! And people do keep asking that.... why?


GF is getting cross. I'll finish this post a little later...



... A little later ...

In terms of "what do you want?" ... I will let you draw your own conclusions from the following rough transcript...

Me: "Hi Sean, it's XXXXXXX from XXXXXXX. We talked some time ago about a different boat. Have you got 10 minutes?"
Sean: "Yeah fire away."
Me: "I've got myself into a bit of a pickle mate. Errr.... I stopped a boat from hitting a bridge recently. I tied it up, errr... put a salvage note on it and thought, Good Job. I tried to contact the owners... failed. Errr... took the details down to the police, reported it as lost property, had a bit of a problem with them, errr blah blah blah..."
me: "Errr... the owners have since turned up, despoiled the site that the boat is on, and tried to take it away. Errm... I am thinking about having the boat chipped."
Sean: "You want the boat chipped?"
me: "If possible. Yes. Please."
Sean: "Errr ... what do you mean chipped?"
me: "Put in your chipper."
Sean: "Oh right, disposed of... Yeah, I can do that, not a problem. Errrm ... do we have details about this boat?"
me: "Would you like the details?"
Sean: "Erm... have you emailed them to us already?"
me: "No I haven't."
Sean: "Well if you can email them to us we can start the process on Monday, tell you when it can be done and all the rest of it."
me: "Wonderful! I'll do that. Thank you very much."
Sean: "Yeah you're very welcome..."

In terms of "wasted police time" lets explore that.
Let's say I like pencils. I go for a walk hoping I will find one, and lo! there is one, rolling off the kerb into a gutter.
I pick it up, and take it to the police station to report the find. This report takes 3+ hours of my time. Who has wasted whom's time?

In terms of "are you certain..." you have a good point. No... we currently have no way to invoke.

In terms of our bet and sending you some pictures... It feels wrong to take money from someone who has been so helpful.
That said I am very appreciative of your post. It's kind of you and clearly wins you "most helpful post so far".
With your permission, I will send you everything I have on the matter once this is over.

 

[ShinyShoe]

The lock, mitigation.... It would become mitigation once I'm in front of the magistrate.
As you say I'm bang to rights.
I'm from a time and place where if you do something wrong, and you get caught, you own it.

Buy you didn't do anything wrong! At least not in terms of Criminal Damage. Why get convicted and plead for a lenient sentence when the law says you didn't do anything wrong.

You've added Breaking & Entering to your charge list. Not sure that is a UK crime. The UK Equivalent would usually be Burglary or Interference with Goods. The fact you removed things might make you a target for Burglary. And it really isn't clear why you removed them! But I'd expect a decent lawyer to be saying it doesn't constitute theft as there was no permanent intention to deprive the owner of the property. Interference with Goods - is trickier... If all you'd done was search for some warps and an anchor chain I'd say the magistrate would laugh it out of court. The fact you stayed aboard for some time, apparently not out of concern about the vessel, the fact you removed goods to give to the police in what was quite frankly a baffling exchange of information... ...if I was the magistrate... you could ask for leniency, doesn't mean you'll get it.

 

[solent clown]

Is it really necessary to post 12 images, totalling ~2.5MB when one might have sufficed?
You won't win many friends by doing so, particularly among those with low bandwidth issues.
Might you optimize them so that they are each about 50kb in size? Or delete some of them from your post?

I did optimise them. sorry if you found the images too big. I am not an expert at such things, but if you look at the bottom right of the pics you will see the software I used embossed. If you have any constructive technical advice to help me make them smaller I am open to it as using that bit of kit is about as advanced as I get at such things

 

[solent clown]

@Solent... you have a fine mind.

In terms of the sleepover, lets explore that.
1/4 mile walk through "balls deep" mud. Back through a sensitive area. Back to the bridge. Back to my boat. Stinking, sweating. And ... repeat in reverse order for the next tide. That would be bad enough. However, my intent was "back to the mrs for lunch" ... the same rough journey +back and forth to town.
Whats the problem here?
Were I in the right situation I might kick in a set of cabin doors in anywhere in the country, spend the night and leave. Worst case I will pay the piper with a B&E charge... so small fine and "don't do it again"? right?

The lock, mitigation.... It would become mitigation once I'm in front of the magistrate.
As you say I'm bang to rights.
I'm from a time and place where if you do something wrong, and you get caught, you own it.

Merchant Shipping Act 1995... etc ... ok you got me cant remember.

Our legal advice... best I can get! And people do keep asking that.... why?


GF is getting cross. I'll finish this post a little later.

Mate, why not just spill the beans and tell the whole story warts and all, I am sure you will get a good deal more sympathy and advice that would help you out of this potential hole. Putting your hands up to your errors is a good start, so carry on and add some specifics. Maybe someone on here will know the owners and help smooth things over?
It would be an educational and useful thread for all then. And maybe even a happy ending.

 

[sailaboutvic]

@solet clown .
Didn't I read you have a nice project on the go ?
I think you be better off getting stuck into that then wasting time, energy and data cost carrying on this nonsense.
This no doubt is a wind up . Or another school boy dream .
Sort out the boat and get yourself back on the water , you get a lot more enjoyment doing that , then given FB move to write about .

 

[solent clown]

@solet clown .
Didn't I read you have a nice project on the go ?
I think you be better off getting stuck into that then wasting time, energy and data cost carrying on this nonsense.
This no doubt is a wind up . Or another school boy dream .
Sort out the boat and get yourself back on the water , you get a lot more enjoyment doing that , then given FB move to write about .

you are without doubt correct on all counts :encouragement: