Boat in Greece problems after 31st December.

[sailaboutvic]

The 18 month temporary importation rule is EU wide and not just in Greece, see https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf, though how that's implemented is up to each member state and not all states may use Transit Logs. All states must follow the same temporary importation rules however.

I don't know what the terms will be for UK flagged and VAT paid boats in EU after after December 31st. If someone has documentary evidence of what the position will be I'm sure everyone will want to know.

In my view there are three likely outcomes...

1. The UK becomes a non-EU state just like the USA or Australia. In that case UK flagged boats will have to follow the same temporary importation rules as all other non-EU flagged boats (the 18 month rule).

2. The UK has some special status and EU VAT paid boats are allowed unrestricted movement within the EU. In that case nothing will change.

3. The UK becomes a non-EU state just like the USA or Australia but some EU countries choose to turn a blind eye and allow UK flagged boats free movement within the waters of that country. The problem with that is that if the UK and the EU fall out big time the EU may insist that all countries follow the temporary importation rules on UK flagged boats.

You lost me sorry Tony , if as we keep being told by HMC , RYA , and your own Club CA that a boat that's in the EU on B Day will still have EU VAT status then where does the temporary importation rules, come into it .
Or are you now saying that a non EU flag boat that's has VAT status still needs to abide by the TTR and leave every 18 months , because I don't think your correct .
Any way the point I was making was about Transit log , and it's only Greece that requires TL the cruise their coast , Malta , Ital,y France require boats to check in but it stop there and I think Spain too .
Your very sensitive as soon as the word Greece is mention if you don't mind me saying .

 

[Irish Rover]

You lost me sorry Tony , if as we keep being told by HMC , RYA , and your own Club CA that a boat that's in the EU on B Day will still have EU VAT status then where does the temporary importation rules, come into it .
Or are you now saying that a non EU flag boat that's has VAT status still needs to abide by the TTR and leave every 18 months , because I don't think your correct .
Any way the point I was making was about Transit log , and it's only Greece that requires TL the cruise their coast , Malta , Ital,y France require boats to check in but it stop there and I think Spain too .
Your very sensitive as soon as the word Greece is mention if you don't mind me saying .

I guess Tony is talking about boats who will be in UK on B day and will visit EU subsequently. In fairness to Tony most of us immigrants and expats tend to be a bit defensive of our adopted countries.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I guess Tony is talking about boats who will be in UK on B day and will visit EU subsequently. In fairness to Tony most of us immigrants and expats tend to be a bit defensive of our adopted countries.

I think he was talking about non EU boats if you read his other posting and after The end of this year British boats will be non EU .
BUT a boat can be non EU but still be EU vat paid ,
in which case it doesn't need to apply to the TTR rules and has so don't have to leave the EU every 18 months .
Transit logs are another thing all together I sure Tony know that without me saying , as he pretty well knowledgeable on most stuff, as far as EU countries are concern it's only Greece an EU yacht to have one ( DEKPA) ok it's not quite a TL but as close too one ,
non EU yacht as in the US or down under again countries other then Greece or Croatia don't issues them , when a US yacht arrives in say Italy they check in with their passport some will get stamp others won't bother , in Malta they only interested in a crew list , they will check passport but won't stamp them , that's why many non EU boat will spend months there to extend there time in the EU , France the same , I not sure what's happening in Spain these days but as I heard of any one told to buy a TL .

 

[Tony Cross]

You lost me sorry Tony , if as we keep being told by HMC , RYA , and your own Club CA that a boat that's in the EU on B Day will still have EU VAT status then where does the temporary importation rules, come into it .
Or are you now saying that a non EU flag boat that's has VAT status still needs to abide by the TTR and leave every 18 months , because I don't think your correct .
Any way the point I was making was about Transit log , and it's only Greece that requires TL the cruise their coast , Malta , Ital,y France require boats to check in but it stop there and I think Spain too .
Your very sensitive as soon as the word Greece is mention if you don't mind me saying .

I'm saying that it's not clear cut - which is of course why we're having this discussion.

AFAIK there was nothing in the withdrawal agreement on which the UK left the EU in January about the VAT status of UK flagged boats, so nothing is yet cast in stone. Either way it shouldn't be a major issue, UK flagged boats will be able to cruise in EU waters, it's just that there might be a couple more hoops to jump through.

 

[Irish Rover]

I think he was talking about non EU boats if you read his other posting and after The end of this year British boats will be non EU .
BUT a boat can be non EU but still be EU vat paid ,
in which case it doesn't need to apply to the TTR rules and has so don't have to leave the EU every 18 months .
Transit logs are another thing all together I sure Tony know that without me saying , as he pretty well knowledgeable on most stuff, as far as EU countries are concern it's only Greece an EU yacht to have one ( DEKPA) ok it's not quite a TL but as close too one ,
non EU yacht as in the US or down under again countries other then Greece or Croatia don't issues them , when a US yacht arrives in say Italy they check in with their passport some will get stamp others won't bother , in Malta they only interested in a crew list , they will check passport but won't stamp them , that's why many non EU boat will spend months there to extend there time in the EU , France the same , I not sure what's happening in Spain these days but as I heard of any one told to buy a TL .

It's always confusing when we mix nationality/registration with VAT status. As far as yachts are concerned nationality is a non issue in terms of entitlement to remain in the EU. The determining factor is VAT status. Boats which are currently EU VAT paid will either retain that status or become UK VAT paid. They will not be both although there will still be opportunities to swap after B day.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I'm saying that it's not clear cut - which is of course why we're having this discussion.

AFAIK there was nothing in the withdrawal agreement on which the UK left the EU in January about the VAT status of UK flagged boats, so nothing is yet cast in stone. Either way it shouldn't be a major issue, UK flagged boats will be able to cruise in EU waters, it's just that there might be a couple more hoops to jump through.

Can't disagree with that Tony
But as it stand right now and what people in the know how keep telling us , if all come to pass British flag boat that's in the EU on B day won't have the problem as far as TTR rules .

 

[Chris_Robb]

Arctic - Your guy is right. After the 31st Dec 2020, we become a third Country and have to do what our couzens down under have to do - Ditch the Dekpa and get a Transit Log (TL). If you are Vat 27 paid vessel, you will get an Unlimited Transit Log (UTL).

As the other thread have found, the DEKPA is going to be ditched. Its something the CA has been campaigning for for some time and the advent of the E-TEPAI tax gave them the means to scrap it. Port Police were on the verge of rebelling anyway as they were fed up with the whole thing and fining people - I know because I got caught in October without a valid stamp in Lavrio, Andros - the PP in Orie had stamped the wrong page and not the page with annual attestation - I heard the bank of the stamp and a cheery "see you next year capitan" and I never checked! This led to a 4 hour argument with the Captain of PP and the Ministry (who know me) and the PP was furious with the ministry for all the wasted work. The conversation ended 4 hours later saying - Capitan , they are going to scrap the DEKPA! So its finally been done and thats good, BUT......

in 2021 we change to the TL. This will be a logistical nightmare for the Customs who will have to do it - you imaging the queues at big yachting centers. We are therefore asking that the TL for Vat paid boats, is effectively becomes an adjunct to the E-TEPAI similar to the son of DEKPA.

We were also asking for clarity with the death of the DEKPA as to how you formally register alternative users of your vessel - for say direct family - ie definitely NOT for money (Illegal Charter), which was recorded in the user slot on the DEKPA. The E-tepai has no such slot. They have suggested that each time you should change your "Liable Person" details and reprint the docs. I think that is too much of a fudge. We want to know how we will NOT be mistaken as Illegal charter...... I need to read the google translation on the other thread as there is coverage of crew and passenger lists there, with may contain the answer.

More when we know the exact state.

 

[nortada]

I wouldn't envisage each country apart from Ireland making individual arrangements with the UK. How would that work with open borders in the EU.

I would.

There is already evidence that different EU countries are adopting very different attitudes to the U.K.

As this thread suggests arrangements in Greece and Portugal are different.

How will it work - only time will tell.

 

[Irish Rover]

I would.

There is already evidence that different EU countries are adopting very different attitudes to the U.K.

How will it work - only time will tell.

Indeed, and it could well be a very long time to wait. I can't see everything being sorted by the end of this year so it will either be a train crash or a very slow boat.

 

[nortada]

A

Indeed, and it could well be a very long time to wait. I can't see everything being sorted by the end of this year so it will either be a train crash or a very slow boat.

Depending on how much has to be sorted - agree.

 

[Chris_Robb]

A

Depending on how much has to be sorted - agree.

The bulk of the relationship between the UK and the EU member states was dealt with in the Withdrawal agreement which is now LAW. So the various nations cannot change this. However there are I believe a couple of approaches they can take - which may change the way you, the hopeful resident, will register. The rest of the negotiations is about the Trade aspect - so no deal now will not impact on what has already been agreed in the Withdrawal agreement.

 

[Artic Warrior]

It's always confusing when we mix nationality/registration with VAT status. As far as yachts are concerned nationality is a non issue in terms of entitlement to remain in the EU. The determining factor is VAT status. Boats which are currently EU VAT paid will either retain that status or become UK VAT paid. They will not be both although there will still be opportunities to swap after B day.

That's what I'm hoping my boat is currently in Greece and EU vat paid.... And if I decide to bring her back to the UK hopefully they will see that the vat is Still paid and everything is okay,

 

[Artic Warrior]

Arctic - Your guy is right. After the 31st Dec 2020, we become a third Country and have to do what our couzens down under have to do - Ditch the Dekpa and get a Transit Log (TL). If you are Vat 27 paid vessel, you will get an Unlimited Transit Log (UTL).

As the other thread have found, the DEKPA is going to be ditched. Its something the CA has been campaigning for for some time and the advent of the E-TEPAI tax gave them the means to scrap it. Port Police were on the verge of rebelling anyway as they were fed up with the whole thing and fining people - I know because I got caught in October without a valid stamp in Lavrio, Andros - the PP in Orie had stamped the wrong page and not the page with annual attestation - I heard the bank of the stamp and a cheery "see you next year capitan" and I never checked! This led to a 4 hour argument with the Captain of PP and the Ministry (who know me) and the PP was furious with the ministry for all the wasted work. The conversation ended 4 hours later saying - Capitan , they are going to scrap the DEKPA! So its finally been done and thats good, BUT......

in 2021 we change to the TL. This will be a logistical nightmare for the Customs who will have to do it - you imaging the queues at big yachting centers. We are therefore asking that the TL for Vat paid boats, is effectively becomes an adjunct to the E-TEPAI similar to the son of DEKPA.

We were also asking for clarity with the death of the DEKPA as to how you formally register alternative users of your vessel - for say direct family - ie definitely NOT for money (Illegal Charter), which was recorded in the user slot on the DEKPA. The E-tepai has no such slot. They have suggested that each time you should change your "Liable Person" details and reprint the docs. I think that is too much of a fudge. We want to know how we will NOT be mistaken as Illegal charter...... I need to read the google translation on the other thread as there is coverage of crew and passenger lists there, with may contain the answer.

More when we know the exact state.

Thank you Chris that was a whole load of good information... But what my power of attorney said and I gather that he means for non-eu vat boats was six months in 6 months out.... Which I found very strange...

 

[Irish Rover]

The bulk of the relationship between the UK and the EU member states was dealt with in the Withdrawal agreement which is now LAW. So the various nations cannot change this. However there are I believe a couple of approaches they can take - which may change the way you, the hopeful resident, will register. The rest of the negotiations is about the Trade aspect - so no deal now will not impact on what has already been agreed in the Withdrawal agreement.

While I hope you're right I think this is a wholly optimistic take on the situation and it seems others agree
France warns UK of bitter post-Brexit trade talks
French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian predicted the two sides would "rip each other apart" as they strove for advantage in the negotiations.
EU and UK are poles apart on the Irish Protocol

 

[Beneteau381]

I wouldn't envisage each country apart from Ireland making individual arrangements with the UK. How would that work with open borders in the EU.

Portugal has already done it. And I speak with first hand knowledge.

 

[Beneteau381]

While I hope you're right I think this is a wholly optimistic take on the situation and it seems others agree
France warns UK of bitter post-Brexit trade talks
French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian predicted the two sides would "rip each other apart" as they strove for advantage in the negotiations.
EU and UK are poles apart on the Irish Protocol

Project fear. Take your negativity to the Brexit Forum.

 

[Irish Rover]

Project fear. Take your negativity to the Brexit Forum.

Live horse get grass.
Best of luck to all concerned. I hope it all works out.