Boat in Greece problems after 31st December.

[Artic Warrior]

Hi all...
I'm UK citizen with British registered boat that was made in France and is EU vat paid.
My dekpa stamp is due I'm may and I'm not there so I have a power of attorney in Greece to do this for me which is fine...but he sent me a message saying that after December 31st my boat will need a transit log instead... I would have thought as the RYA said that as my boat will be in Greece on the leaving date that my boat will stay as is and can remain as an EU boat and not have to leave to a third country like us or Ozzy boat...
But what makes it more complicated is the message that he sent me.... The message is below...
Hopefully he is very wrong.

I do not know how helpful I can be about your Greek address issue but I will try to inform you about the new status of your boat after the 31st of December 2020.
After this date your boat, if it remains under the English flag, should have a TRANZIT LOG from the Customs of Volos. This means that you will be able to use the vessel, as a user, for 6 months and then you must return to the United Kingdom or another third country for another 6 months. And this must be proven by your passport otherwise you will not be able to reuse your boat.

Another solution is to register your boat under the Greek flag or another EU flag. In this case your boat should have, in addition to it's license, a Pleasure Craft Traffic Document (DE.K.P.A.)

 

[Artic Warrior]

I've just been reading a post on Facebook med sailing that they tried to introduce the 6 month only stay in Greek waters back in 2018 for boats with transit log...

 

[Tony Cross]

I've just been reading a post on Facebook med sailing that they tried to introduce the 6 month only stay in Greek waters back in 2018 for boats with transit log...

And were promptly jumped on by the EU following an official complaint by the CA, because it was illegal.

Non-EU flagged boats in Greece get an 18 month Transit Log. This can be extended up to 24 months, apparently pretty much for the asking, but then the boat must leave EU waters. The thing is the EU rules don't specify for how long, so 1 day out is good enough. Most people it seems go to Turkey, spend one night in a marina (to get a receipt as proof of having left the EU) and then they come back to Greece the next day and get another 18 month transit log. There is nothing to stop you doing that forever.

Not that the rules for you and the boat are different. Non-EU citizens get 90 days in a 180 day rolling period, whilst non-EU boats get an 18 month transit log.

It's also worth mentioning that nobody knows for certain what the position of UK flagged boats will be in the EU after 31st December. It's not been decided yet, but it's most likely that UK flagged boats will need a transit log.

 

[Artic Warrior]

And were promptly jumped on by the EU following an official complaint by the CA, because it was illegal.

Non-EU flagged boats in Greece get an 18 month Transit Log. This can be extended up to 24 months, apparently pretty much for the asking, but then the boat must leave EU waters. The thing is the EU rules don't specify for how long, so 1 day out is good enough. Most people it seems go to Turkey, spend one night in a marina (to get a receipt as proof of having left the EU) and then they come back to Greece the next day and get another 18 month transit log. There is nothing to stop you doing that forever.

Not that the rules for you and the boat are different. Non-EU citizens get 90 days in a 180 day rolling period, whilst non-EU boats get an 18 month transit log.

It's also worth mentioning that nobody knows for certain what the position of UK flagged boats will be in the EU after 31st December. It's not been decided yet, but it's most likely that UK flagged boats will need a transit log.

My boat is EU vat paid and I'm the UK citerzen owner ....I presume my boat will remain an EU boat

 

[RobbieW]

...It's also worth mentioning that nobody knows for certain what the position of UK flagged boats will be in the EU after 31st December. It's not been decided yet, but it's most likely that UK flagged boats will need a transit log.

Has the idea that boats in the EU on whatever the date turns out to be retain their VAT status gone out the window ? iirc that is the main reason for the transit log and the need to take the boat out of the EU to reset the clock. It seems established that the flag doesnt not exclude EU VAT paid status eg. US flagged boats can be EU VAT paid

 

[Artic Warrior]

My boat is EU vat paid and I'm the UK citerzen owner ....I presume my boat will remain an EU boat

My boat is British registered

 

[JFowler]

My understanding is that EU VAT paid boats will be issued with an ‘Unlimited Transit Log’ (UTL), In which case there’s no requirement to leave EU waters every 18 months.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The reason for leaving the EU ever 18 months is because of the VAT issue As I understand it the flag doesn't matter .
So if we believe what been said that a boat that's in the EU on B Day keeps it VAT status, then there no reason to leave the EU ever 18 months .
Of course there still the problem with the owner having to apply to the 90/180 day rule .

 

[Artic Warrior]

My understanding is that EU VAT paid boats will be issued with an ‘Unlimited Transit Log’ (UTL), In which case there’s no requirement to leave EU waters every 18 months.

Thats the way I see it as it has nothing to do of where the boat is registered

 

[Artic Warrior]

The reason for leaving the EU ever 18 months is because of the VAT issue As I understand it the flag doesn't matter .
So if we believe what been said that a boat that's in the EU on B Day keeps it VAT status, then there no reason to leave the EU ever 18 months .
Of course there still the problem with the owner having to apply to the 90/180 day rule .

Yes this is how I see it...thank you

 

[Artic Warrior]

I feel for those who are livaboard on the European canal system that are UK vat paid .....I hope they can remain as an EU vat paid boat otherwise it's difficult for them regarding the 18months vat issue

 

[sailaboutvic]

We meet full time Brit cruisers all the time and they seen to be split 50/50 re the 90/180 days .
There a small amount who just selling up because they feel if just not going to work for them others who removing their boats out of the EU , some going back to the UK others cross the pond .
Then there the others like our self who believe that some how there be a way around it , maybe we been around enough US, OZS,NZ Canadian and so no who found ways around it without doing the EU dance.
There only a hand full here who it's going to effect any way as most at some point return back home partly through the summer and the winter.

 

[sailaboutvic]

@Tony Cross you may be right about Transit logs in Greece , but it be unlikely you need one in other EU country's
My thinking about all this is Italy, Malta even France ( including Sardinia and Corsica) have no interest in people cruising they shore lines unless your living there full time ,
Croatia everyone has to check in any way , Spain I have no idea what's going on there but last time we cruised there unless you hit a marina you wasn't bothered so we never had a problem so it's Greece as far as the Med goes where the problem lay

 

[Irish Rover]

It will all come down to reciprocity in the end - what rights will the UK be prepared to give to citizens of the other 26 countries.

 

[nortada]

It will all come down to reciprocity in the end - what rights will the UK be prepared to give to citizens of the other 26 countries.

Reciprocity between the U.K. and individual countries, rather than a blanket cover between the U.K. and all 27.

Obtaining residency could be the key to all of this or it might come down to grandfather rights.

 

[Tony Cross]

@Tony Cross you may be right about Transit logs in Greece , but it be unlikely you need one in other EU country's
My thinking about all this is Italy, Malta even France ( including Sardinia and Corsica) have no interest in people cruising they shore lines unless your living there full time ,
Croatia everyone has to check in any way , Spain I have no idea what's going on there but last time we cruised there unless you hit a marina you wasn't bothered so we never had a problem so it's Greece as far as the Med goes where the problem lay

The 18 month temporary importation rule is EU wide and not just in Greece, see https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf, though how that's implemented is up to each member state and not all states may use Transit Logs. All states must follow the same temporary importation rules however.

I don't know what the terms will be for UK flagged and VAT paid boats in EU after after December 31st. If someone has documentary evidence of what the position will be I'm sure everyone will want to know.

In my view there are three likely outcomes...

1. The UK becomes a non-EU state just like the USA or Australia. In that case UK flagged boats will have to follow the same temporary importation rules as all other non-EU flagged boats (the 18 month rule).

2. The UK has some special status and EU VAT paid boats are allowed unrestricted movement within the EU. In that case nothing will change.

3. The UK becomes a non-EU state just like the USA or Australia but some EU countries choose to turn a blind eye and allow UK flagged boats free movement within the waters of that country. The problem with that is that if the UK and the EU fall out big time the EU may insist that all countries follow the temporary importation rules on UK flagged boats.

 

[Irish Rover]

Reciprocity between the U.K. and individual countries, rather than a blanket cover between the U.K. and all 27.

I wouldn't envisage each country apart from Ireland making individual arrangements with the UK. How would that work with open borders in the EU.

 

[RobbieW]

I wouldn't envisage each country apart from Ireland making individual arrangements with the UK. How would that work with open borders in the EU.

In much the same way as the Australian agreements with individual Schengen countries...
Visas and entry requirements in Europe | Smartraveller
using their own words "Using these visa waiver agreements in combination with Schengen visa-free arrangements is complex"

 

[Irish Rover]

In much the same way as the Australian agreements with individual Schengen countries...
Visas and entry requirements in Europe | Smartraveller
using their own words "Using these visa waiver agreements in combination with Schengen visa-free arrangements is complex"

It may be so but I doubt it. I still think the EU 26 will adopt a coordinated approach to all agreements with the UK. This approach could be very generous or the opposite depending on the totality of the future relationship and with the noises emanating from London I wouldn't be too hopeful of a positive outcome.

 

[st599]

It will all come down to reciprocity in the end - what rights will the UK be prepared to give to citizens of the other 26 countries.

According to the RYA's chief legal guy at this year's cruising conference, the EU offered easy access for non-workers provided the UK reciprocated last year, the UK turned them down. He said that unless there was a fundamental shift from the UK Government to accept the EU's offer, it would be 90 in 180, Ports of Entry, etc. etc.