Boat in build pics (2013 Fairline Squadron 78)

[MapisM]

Feature wise, there is little to no difference.

Chapeau to the sincerity.
I'm not arguing about better touch or visibility, I don't have enough hands on experience to evaluate that.
Besides, when about every other year I think about an upgrade of my mid 90s vintage electronics, I always end up finding some better use for my money...

 

[Groot T]

OK - that answers the main question we've been asking. The "spilt milk" question

I'm not claiming to be the expert on black box vs MFD here, so don't think that I have all the answers.
Though I will say this. If the question is 'do I go black box, or should I stick with MFD', and you don't want for anything beyond what the MFD has to offer, then the answer is simple.
If the question changes to, for example, 'I want a six camera CCTV setup with a FLIR camera onto a DVR combined with two commercial Radars' then there is only one choice, black-box as this setup isn't covered by a regular MFD. And you also have to bring in good knowledge to get everything to talk with each other. And in doing so, one looses the slick-ness of the MFD setup.

Are we at complete crossed purposes Toby? It looks like you are explaining here the benefit of glass as a material. When Mapism and i have been asking about the benefits of glass bridges, our question has nothing to do with glass as a material. "Glass bridge" is merely shorthand for a system architecture where you have a black box computer and separate screen dispays. As distinct from networked MFD where you have a separate computer behind each screen

Yup - that was me having a confused moment..!

Not with new Garmin 8000. Whether you have black box or MFD, you have the flush glass look. Now in this new Garmin world (and Furuno TZ world) glass bridge has to justify itself on functinality, not just looks. Hence these questions

If the software is the same, but one is stored within a PC setup and the other in a MFD, then it becomes a discussion of the points raised above. It will always be easier to go MFD if your requirements are met by that.

Are you actually saying, unequivocally Toby, that Hatteland sunlight viewability is better than Garmin/Raymarine/Furuno?

The salesman in me wants to say 'Of course they are'.
The engineer in me wants to be able to substantiate that claim.
I will have a read through the specs for the Furuno & Garmin ones and do some comparing. Because Raymarine are using Hatteland, I'd say they're on par with my screens. But that's just a hunch.

 

[Groot T]

Chapeau to the sincerity.
I'm not arguing about better touch or visibility, I don't have enough hands on experience to evaluate that.
Besides, when about every other year I think about an upgrade of my mid 90s vintage electronics, I always end up finding some better use for my money...

I hear the 90s vintage is good.
Being blunt, I specialise in screens and their capabilities & work with companies who put together type approved systems which require our products. So discussing if one should go black box or not isn't my bag. Thought I can evaluate the shizz out of a screens performance / technical capability.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Anyway, I see what you mean re. being it more useful for calculating the total distance of a long passage, but wait till you will cruise the Croatian coast.
In the almost 10 years I spent around there, I would have used that feature almost on a daily basis.
In fact, a 15+ waypoints route is not unusual at all, even for a relatively short hop between the islands.
And in some cases, it's not at all obvious, just looking at the map, which is the shorter way to go round one (or more) island/s, to reach another place behind it/.

Yeah that's true but that's where the good old paper chart comes in handy. Because the 'screen size' of a paper chart is always so much larger than any plotter screen it is much easier to roughly plot the most direct route around and between the islands on the paper chart before transferring the waypoints accurately to the plotter. Sometimes the old methods are the best

 

[vas]

Yeah that's true but that's where the good old paper chart comes in handy. Because the 'screen size' of a paper chart is always so much larger than any plotter screen it is much easier to roughly plot the most direct route around and between the islands on the paper chart before transferring the waypoints accurately to the plotter. Sometimes the old methods are the best

A lot of discussion on mapping ppl regarding the infinite zoom of the digital vs the mk1 eyeball capabilities. Digital products are not near enough in terms of overall perception. Doubt they'll be anywhere near that soon...

V.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Yeah that's true but that's where the good old paper chart comes in handy. Because the 'screen size' of a paper chart is always so much larger than any plotter screen it is much easier to roughly plot the most direct route around and between the islands on the paper chart before transferring the waypoints accurately to the plotter. Sometimes the old methods are the best

Why don't MoBo's use the Yeoman as a method of inputting courses? It makes it incredibly easy and you can tidy up any errors due to the scale of the chart by "flying" through the course on the plotter and zooming in. Is it that the navigation is so much more point and shoot that it's just not worth it?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Why don't MoBo's use the Yeoman as a method of inputting courses?

Good point. The Yeoman was an excellent piece of kit. Is it still on sale? I think these days most people don't bother with paper charts on mobos. Its only old fuddy duddys like me who carry charts and use them

 

[benjenbav]

Good point. The Yeoman was an excellent piece of kit. Is it still on sale? I think these days most people don't bother with paper charts on mobos. Its only old fuddy duddys like me who carry charts and use them

Me too!

 

[MapisM]

LOL, fuddy duddy, I had to google for that! You live and learn...
I've been called (with some reason) a luddite, which isn't much different, as I understand.
But this time I'm not joining the "F-D" group.
I do have some paper charts onboard, but actually use them...?!
Naah, I'm not even sure about where I stored them, the last time I re-ordered the lockers!

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Good point. The Yeoman was an excellent piece of kit. Is it still on sale? I think these days most people don't bother with paper charts on mobos. Its only old fuddy duddys like me who carry charts and use them

Still on sale but not exactly cheap at £500 - they crop up second-hand from time to time though and Yeoman have been pretty good at repairing just about anything in the past. http://www.yeomanuk.co.uk/

 

[Hurricane]

Apart from using your nav displays to show TV or a PC screen with the nav computer turned off (neither of which interest me at all, tbh), what else does glass bridge do Hurricane that linked MFDs wont do? I've tried for ages to find the answer to this question, without success. Eg see above re Hatteland

I'm thinking of fitting Garmin 8000 series linked MFDs, rahter than their 8500 series black box that displays on multiple glass bridge screens, hence the question

I believe Raymarine announced new glass bridge gear the same day as Garmin, replacing G series

Sorry been rebuilding my computer so a bit late with the reply.

I can only only comment on my (Raymarine) glass bridge system but there are a couple of quite useful things you haven't covered.
Firstly, we have (Raymarine) wireless keyboards to control the system - IMO, these are helpful when the sea "kicks up a bit" - how many times have you reached across to press a button and ended up pressing the wrong one.
Our keyboards are a bit "chunky" but you sit with them on your lap - really easy concept.
Yep - I know you COULD have wireless keyboards controlling an MFD but my answer is if you are going to split the system why not completely split it.

My system has two Raymarine Processor units which properly back each other up
I think there's an argument that there is a better backup with a glass bridge system.

But the really BIG thing for me when we were buying was that actual displays that Raymarine were offering.
There's no "faffing" around with menus - if you want a particular docking camera, its a single button press.
Likewise switching between the PC feed and the Raymarine dedicated nav system is a single press of a button.
Our Raymarine displays have a row of buttons along the bottom - all the external feeds are fed to each of the monitors
Each one works completely independantly
Dead simple to use.

And from a backup point of view if the whole Raymarine system went down leaving just one monitor, the PC's feed would continue to run the boat.

I really don't regret buying a glass bridge system
Its all about flexibility.

 

[Hurricane]

Yeah that's true but that's where the good old paper chart comes in handy. Because the 'screen size' of a paper chart is always so much larger than any plotter screen it is much easier to roughly plot the most direct route around and between the islands on the paper chart before transferring the waypoints accurately to the plotter. Sometimes the old methods are the best

I totally disagree with you on this one, Mike.
Don't get me wrong - I DO have paper charts
But if you were to ask me if I ever use them - the answer is a definite NO.

Its all about this PC integration that I keep going on about.
Its way quicker (and easier) to plan and even discuss routes and passages using a PC
My PC has all my paper charts digitized and if (say) we had to plot a route round some islands, there's no sitting down entering way points.
You use a mouse and keyboard on the PC and just upload everything it to the nav system before you go.

I understand your point about the paper being larger space and that's perfectly true for a conventional plotter.
But the humble PC offers so much more than a paper chart.
Switching charts can be a press of a button or with some software higher res charts may even be "quilted" into the one display.
No faffing around opening different paper chart of different scales of the same place.

Now consider the above on all showing on the saloon's widescreen TV so that the whole crew can get involved with the planning.

As I say, I DO keep paper charts on board and available but we NEVER use them.

 

[BartW]

......what do you think about these new electric stabs http://www.cmcmarine.com/stabilis-electra/? They seem to do everything hydraulic stabs do but in a more compact and more easily fitted package......

just read the article in YBW, interesting,
any info / experience / user info available yet ?
they claim to have installed systems in Sanlorenzo's, Benetti's, ...

 

[MapisM]

B, I only read something about them so far a few years ago (on Superyacht magazine, IIRC).
But since they're based along the road I make every time I drive to my lake home, I was already thinking after Deleted User post to drop by and talk with them, the next time I'll go there.
Will post any findings, of course...

PS: on paper, not having to deal with all the hydraulic stuff would be a great advantage for any ex-post installation, as you should have in BA!

 

[MapisM]

I understand your point about the paper being larger space and that's perfectly true for a conventional plotter.
But the humble PC offers so much more than a paper chart.

100% agreed.
Besides, with the soon to be available ultra HD screens, it will be possible to have 2160p (or even 4320p) huge viewable areas.
Which will blow away even the bigger paper charts - not to mention that very few boats have a decent chart table anyway...

 

[jfm]

just read the article in YBW, interesting,
any info / experience / user info available yet ?
they claim to have installed systems in Sanlorenzo's, Benetti's, ...

Yup, as MM says, these ought to be much easier to retrofit than hydraulics. I would expect a bit of motor/gearbox noise, but that isn't a problem in my book. The height of the actuator mechanism is greater than a "flat" hydraulic unit like Sleipner's, but that perhaps isn't a problem on BA. You'd want to examine them much more closely before spending €100k but these must be seriously interesting for a retrofit candidate like BA.

I do not have the mag in front of me but iirc there was some mention of using smaller fin sizes and faster sweep. That aspect needs looking at before you buy. you cannot change the laws of physics like that. But i maybe mis-remembering the article. There was also some MapisM "BS flag" material in the write up on those new gyro stabs and maybe I'm mixing up with that. I'll read it again later

 

[Groot T]

Are you actually saying, unequivocally Toby, that Hatteland sunlight viewability is better than Garmin/Raymarine/Furuno?

Hi jfm,

I have have an update for you;
The TZ Touch runs at a really awkward resolution (16:9) and we only have one display which will worth with that at present, which is our 26".. However, Furuno recommends this display with their system and it is at the top of the recommendation list!

Raymarine, they use the Hatteland 12, 15 & 19" Hatteland Series-X displays but are only available in high-bright.

Garmin 8000 Series.
This system runs on a standard 4:3 (1280 x 1024) setup which makes things very easy.
The only piece of info I have managed to uncover about the MFD screens is they go very bright, up to 1,200 NITS.
I can't unearth any more info about their screens at the moment.

Points where I know Hatteland are just amazing;
Incredible touch screen technology. The test here is to see if the screen will register your touch through paper. I've had mine work through a glossy brochure cover..!
Deals with sunlight in the most efficient way possible, called Optical Bonding, and will never give dust build-up or condensation issues.
Day-light viewable displays are 1,000 NITS. This is very bright. Combine this with Optical bonding and you're streaks ahead.
Type Approval / continuity,
Finally, Price. We're a good thousand, if not more, less than anything else on the market which offers the same sort of performance as ours.

In short - Hatteland are streaks ahead.

Also, here is a picture of a 15" high-bright screen which is only 800 NITS. Half of it is in strong Norweagan sunlight (taken over the summer) and the other half is in a shadow. Note how dull the Apple display looks in the background.
As I said before, its how you cope with the light bouncing / reflecting off the screen, not just make the back-light brighter.

 

[sarabande]

I've always thought that being able to operate touch screens through a layer of thick paper was a good sales point, and high up on the practical usefulness list. Perhaps one could stick a paper chart to the front of the screen and use dividers and a pencil. Do you think it would catch on ? .....

And it's streets, not streaks. I wouldn't want streaks on a quality display.

 

[Groot T]

I've always thought that being able to operate touch screens through a layer of thick paper was a good sales point, and high up on the practical usefulness list. Perhaps one could stick a paper chart to the front of the screen and use dividers and a pencil. Do you think it would catch on ? .....

And it's streets, not streaks. I wouldn't want streaks on a quality display.

Hi Sara,

The test of the screen working through a piece of paper (well, any physical barrier) is to see how sensitive the touch-screen is. It's a good showroom test to indicate if you're using a good quality touch screen or not. Naturally, the thicker the barrier through which the screen works, the better the quality.
As for the chart, pencil and dividers, you're not too far away from what is brewing in the R&D labs at Hatteland. Though that will be a nav tool for the commercial Superyachts markets.

Finally, thank you for the heads up re: streaks / streets. Much like a man wearing orthopaedic shoes, I stand corrected.

Toby

 

[LionsDen]

I've always thought that being able to operate touch screens through a layer of thick paper was a good sales point, and high up on the practical usefulness list. Perhaps one could stick a paper chart to the front of the screen and use dividers and a pencil. Do you think it would catch on ? .....

And it's streets, not streaks. I wouldn't want streaks on a quality display.

Touch screens imho are okay when you are in your home berth - But when at sea in a force 4 plus is not very practical especially when you may end up in a force 6+ - Try hitting the screen then