Boat Hunting for Liveaboard in Dubai

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WorstCase

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Dear All,
I have been reading through some interesting threads of other members' experiences with the process of buying their boats and I would thank in advance any of you who wishes to help.

I am currently based in the Arabian Gulf and have recently decided to look into the option of living/working aboard.
This will include my 2.5 yo, my wife and me. My business is distributed among the various GCC countries where I work as design Consultant.

The idea is to move to a boat based it somewhere in the region and eventually move about different the countries where it would then possible to spend extended periods of time in comfort and with also my office with me.
The office is really just my working space and I am not necessarily planning to use it for meetings although I admit it would be a nice option (this would require a 4th aft room with independent access from the saloon as seen in some layouts of 70'+ yachts).

Due to decision on the budget mainly dictated by risk, I believe I would be looking at 90s 60'+ yachts.
As a side note, I have no yacht experience except few weekends on a friend's Azimut 74 solar.
Being a designer I am looking for something refined and I have a dislike for late 2000s yachts which is pretty much all there is on the used market around here.

Which brings up another big issue: the possibility of eventually getting a boat in Europe and then ship it here (Dubai or Sharjah) although so far the quotes I have received are quite astonishing: 100k for a 20m 45ton

Anyway here a list of the boats I am planning to have a look at in Italy:

Tecnomarine T62 1990 62' 150,000.00 (wow boat in my opinion but we'll see what she's like in person)
Versilcraft Falcon 71 1990 71' 180,000.00 (This currently under offer... no wonder...)
Sanlorenzo SL57 1991 57' 150,000.00
Canados C58 1998 58' 180,000.00
CdP Akhir 20s 1990 69' 230,000.00 (looks amazing, high on the budget but maybe it doesn't need any works... right, wood superstructure)
Fipa Maiora 22 1993 71' 190,000.00 (Amazing huge boat, needs 50k works on top, stored for 4 years... mmmm)
Canados 70 1992 70' 180,000.00 (nice nice nice if only it had the VIP room aft...)
CdP Akhir 22 1986 70' 195,000.00 (icon... but wood)

Some outsiders (there are older/unusual boats that I like for different reasons):

Cantieri di Livorno 22 1975 70' 134,400.00 (amazing space, with pilot house, VIP room aft usable as office/meeting) closed kitchen, separate sitting/dining areas, doesn't look nearly as old as it is)
Baglietto 23M 1983 77' 275,000.00 (aluminum hull, menacing look, one off, it's a Baglietto!, big open saloon to go crazy with interior design, not sure how manageable/liveable she is, looks bit harsh but wicked nonetheless, price higher than the rest but then again...)
Cantieri di Pisa Akhir 18fb 1982 60' 145,000.00 (very homey.. she has a very nice layout and interior, master piece of boat design by Spadolini, but but but... old engines, wood, very old, only one combined sitting/dining...)

Thanks for your help
 
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Interesting list of boats - but the obvious observation is that any 20+ year old boat is going to need a fair amount of ongoing care and maintenance. From your post above, it doesn't sound like you have ownership experience; what about maintenance? The shipping quote doesn't sound terribly wrong, given the cost of shipping 20m boats from UK to the Med.
 
I have zero experience in owning boats, so I definitely need some guidance.

Regarding shipping costs, I believe there are significant fluctuations in the costs but still it will be a significant expense especially in relation to the price of the boats as listed before.
Maintenance is definitely a concern in terms of costs but most importantly in terms of availability of spare parts and skills of locally available technicians (if I have to fly a mechanic from Europe to fix an engine it becomes a little impractical). From what I have been told MANs and CATs are the safest bet for this region.
Other expenses (such as diesel, berthing, taxes) are not really relevant here.

The budget I'm planning for cost of ownership is around 50k EUR per annum avg over a 5 yrs period.
This excludes any cruising, but includes:
- water
- electricity
- insurance
- berthing
- yearly maintenance + maintenance fund
- regular cleaning by crew
 
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TBH with you, and partially due to VAT rules etc. and the transport cost to the location (eg Dubai) and re-sale, I'd seriously consider buying a boat at location ... There are a few around and whilst style may not be exactly what you are looking for, there are a few suitable ones around ... A quick search revealed this one http://dubai.dubizzle.com/motors/bo...NvbmRpdGlvbl9fZ3RlPSZ1c2FnZV9fbHRlPQ==&pos=12 which should be in your price bracket ....
 
Well 1.2 mil aed is 270 k eur. Less 5% customs and less shipping that leaves me a purchasing budget of 150. That tecnomarine for example is far better than a turkish azimut wannabe. Although i agree theres a lot of uncertainty in the process, still it might be worth it
 
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Those boats are (or were 20 years ago) rich boys' toys and not for serious liveaboard. They are cheap because nobody wants them. They are old in boat terms and the systems are likely to be a nightmare to keep running. Not for the inexperienced in a location where such old boats are a rarity.
 
Absolutely right in regards to the fact that these were expensive to buy and maintain, and although they're now cheaper to buy they're likely to cost more to maintain, that's why for example would be useful to have some idea from owners of similar boats what's their budget fro running them and if I am being optimistic in my expectations.

I'm not sure I agree they're not suitable for living aboard, it would be interesting to know what some owners think.

Definitely these boats are cheap because of lack of demand (which would translate in hard time + financial loss at the moment of selling), this in my opinion has more to do with the cost of ownership than with the desire of ownership. I believe they are still very desirable. But of course I have concerns in regards to the cost both in financial terms as well as far as my mental/physical health is concerned. This being said there might be somebody with liveaboard experience who can bring up some aspects I might be underestimating. Obviously I am focusing on space and creature-comforts, but those are quite obvious things.

I am open to alternatives. I have seen on dubizzle some old trawlers in Abu Dhabi but honestly I would not change my current residence for that stuff. I have considered also catamarans and visited a few new lagoons and FPs but those are even more of a black sheep in this area, they're slow, not as refined as motor yachts and space/euro ratio is just not worth it.

I have also checked newer yachts 2006-2008 azimuts... the 55E is ok as space (nothing smaller would cut it) but styling both interior and exterior I cannot live with. If I imagine going back to the marina and approach my boat this is not the type (Azimuts, aicons, ferretti etc etc) I would like to own. Of course there are recent boats that are nice and would be very exciting to own (duh!) but non in a price range I am interested in considering.
 
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Demand and desire are really one and the same thing.

Old boats are simply old. Technology has moved on ( nav kit, engine management, ac technology) as have fashions re furniture, colours and so on. The challenge any buyer faces is that owing a 70 foot boat that is 20 years old and worth not a lot costs the same to maintain ( likely a lot more) than a new one. As such the ownership cost as a % of purchase price gets out of kilter and spoken who can afford to buy it can't afford ( or be willing) to run it.

On an old boat used a a live aboard the system are going to get a lot of use. AC, water system, cooking appliances, chargers and so on. A house get ripped to bits aver 30 odd years and pretty comprehensively refurbished every 7 - 10 years. Boats are no different. At this age it will need money spending on it (a) as it is old and (b) as it needs updating - or forced updating as things fail and cannot be repaired and need replacing.

Do they represent value - yes if you can stomach the running cost and associated hassle. Most can't hence their value.
 
Liveaboard is often referred to as "fixing boats in sunny places". You are likely to spend your life trying to source obsolete parts and keep things that were designed for odd weekend use running for full time use. Although big boats like this look like small apartments things that you need for living full time simply will not function in that way. Equally, if you want to keep it mobile the engines will gobble money, particularly if they have spent most of their life sitting still interspersed with short periods of use, which is a common regime for this kind of boat.

Sorry to sound negative but the Med is full of boats like that looking for someone with starry eyes and deep pockets.
 
I appreciate the insight.
You're suggesting looking at different type of boat, simply more recent ones or give up on the idea to live aboard altogether?
Some people do liveaboard so I guess it is doable, and trust me if you own a house you know a thing or two about systems not working, sourcing parts and labour etc etc. You can rent a home, buy a condo, buy a villa or decide to restore an old manor... people pick different routes for all the different reasons. In this case my approach is that of someone looking for a home. If I wanted a care free experience I would stick to renting.

I am ready to spend up to 50k a year on the boat aside from cruising: is this enough, too little or plenty for a boat that would not even remotely be mistaken for a caravan?
 
jrudge said:
Demand and desire are really one and the same thing
Click to expand...

Sorry I don't agree. Demand is the result of someone acting on the desire to acquire goods and services. While the result might be the same not having the desire to acquire anyhting and having it but not acting upon it are two very different situations. A desirable item can eventually be sold.
 
Hi there,

I'm probably one of the few boat owners on here who went the route that you have in mind,
so far we didn't regret this for a second,

re demand and desire,
imo there is soo much on offer, and little demand, as most people who can afford this kind of boat ownership, and everything involved, can afford to buy new or newer,
but one has to be aware that there is much difference between all these boats on offer
and if you search carefully imo some nice deals can be done,

I have the same opinion about you regarding “character” and “time less designs”, of some boats of that age,
There are slightly younger plastic tubs, which look completely outdated today
There are of cause also younger classic designs, but these usually keep a higher value much better, and remain in more expensive price bracket.

I can’t comment about the boats you found (except on the Canados) I’ve never inspected them in detail,
but many of these Italian designs are built to a high standard.
Most of the technical system are designed and purpose build in these boats, with generally available components, and can last much longer than 20 years.
Just make sure that you inspect this carefully!

Same on the interior design;
some designs are really craftsmanship that you can’t find today,
But some look old fashion, or outdated,
Some of the finishings can be updated easily (fe curtains) ,
but some are basic elements of the boat (wooden furniture)

Re old navigation electronics, this is a non issue,
Actually you don’t need latest technology electronics to do save navigation,
My boat had new Furuno Navnet2 gear from early 2000’s,
We just had to add another screen, and a new Icom VHF, all no big deal…

Re. your PM about that Canados C70s (same like mine)
I know that boat, but have not been onboard, she was in Porte Ercole, and was used until one or two year ago, (still the first or maybe second owner iirc)
Which is good, maintained permanently / contrary to some others who are left alone for a long time.

The weak spot on these boats is the wooden deck and gunwale,
The deck might have some leaks, in to the cabins
I have seen C70’s where these leaks was really dramatic, and damaged the interior in cabins and or in the saloon.
Similar thing around front window…
Regarding the gunwale, vulnerable from moisture inside, needs to be repainted / updated every 5 year or so..
Apart from that, the C70’s are really well build boats

Also look closely to the interior, ours is nice sherry wood, but on some models, it is more yellow-ish wood,
Same for some decorative elements. Ceilings, ..
Our bathrooms are white, on some C70 these are wood, (makes them look much older…but could be painted)
Our floor’s in the cabins, bathrooms and saloon are outstandingly nice and good condition !

Regarding technical installation, really build at a high standard at that time,
Apart from normal wear and tear of some switches or pumps, all systems in the boat are still original. (also airco !)
Everything important is equipped with a backup
Avoid C70’s from pre 1991, these usually have Detroid Diesels, and more old fashion systems, genny’s, etc…
Carefully check this on other Italian Makes…
Apart from the dramatic problems I have with one MAN engine, I still believe that this is the type of engine you would want in such a boat.
Spare parts and service is worldwide available, even down here in Montenegro.

When you are going for such a boat, you do need to have some technical insights, and hands on attitude,
Just like owning any boat really ;-)
If you are totally dependent on others, this is not a good idea,
Its like owning a old house and a old truck, … You need to be able to track down problems that show up !

Re size,
We spend sometimes longer periods on the boat, like now 2 weeks, or in summer 6 weeks, etc…
Almost like live aboard,
The one thing I would recommend is, go as big as you can,
Especially to have that extra storage room, and a space for a workbench, etc…
And check that you have full standing height everywhere in the boat,
This is important while living permanently onboard,
I’m so glad we went for the C70 instead of a C60, this extra meter length, makes sooo much difference.
All guests or boating friends onboard are impressed with the “size” inside,
I believe this is typical for some of these Italian designs of that vintage.

Good luck with your search,
Pls keep us updated, really interested !
 
The boat tour should start in a week time max. My highest expectations are with Tecnomarines, but they might be small (not in gneral but for the purpose) as you pointed out 1 meter make a huge difference, that's why Im really looking forward to these few days of boat hunting and get some feel for the space in these boats.

I have a question about engine controls... some of these old boats are fitted or refitted with different types of controls some have the original red and black, some have revs and transmission combined non electronic, some have electronic.
How relevant it is to get something updated? is it easy to eventually update?
 
WorstCase said:
The boat tour should start in a week time max.
Click to expand...

interesting times,
pls post pics here, we like that :)

WorstCase said:
some of these old boats are fitted or refitted with different types of controls some have the original red and black, some have revs and transmission combined non electronic, some have electronic.
How relevant it is to get something updated? is it easy to eventually update?
Click to expand...

I have the orriginal red for throttle, and separate blacks for gear, and have not found this to be a problem,
no need to change this,

sometimes while manouvring with strong side wind, you would want to use throttle right after switching in to gear,
that needs some practice, but its a rare occasion that you need this,

technically it would be possible to change / upgrade,
but I guess many other things are higher on the priority list, at least on mine...;)
 
WorstCase said:
The budget I'm planning for cost of ownership is around 50k EUR per annum avg over a 5 yrs period.
This excludes any cruising, but includes:
- water
- electricity
- insurance
- berthing
- yearly maintenance + maintenance fund
- regular cleaning by crew
Click to expand...

Well you're not way out on budget providing you don't get any major and unexpected repair bills which I have to say you probably will on boats of this age. Probably the engines will be the least of your problems in Dubai with the number of MAN and Cat engined trucks and construction machines about there, which will probably mean that service is readily available although parts might be a problem for 20+ yr old engines out there. Your major problems will be sourcing parts for other components such as generator, aircon, water and toilet systems, galley equipment etc. I cannot imagine what it would be like living on board a boat in Dubai when its 45degC outside and the aircon or water pump has packed up and you're having to wait a week for parts to be shipped from Italy, especially with a 2.5 yr old on board.

IMHO your major concern is how you keep this boat habitable for your wife and child. Maybe you should consider allocating part of your budget to replacing some of the critical items of domestic equipment on the boat before it leaves Europe and that list might include galley fridge, water pump, toilets+ macerators and probably the most expensive item, the aircon compressor/chiller unit to name just a few items
 
Yes I am allocating around 40-50K on top boat purchase (hopefully less) for upgrades refitting to prep the boat for gulf climate if needed.
BTW yesterday it was 45 deg...
 
Thinking about temperatures and aircon, I believe the water temp in the Gulf can get so high in the summer that 'normal' spec marine a/c units will struggle to cope.
 
Deleted User said:
although parts might be a problem for 20+ yr old engines out there. Your major problems will be sourcing parts for other components such as generator, aircon, water and toilet systems, galley equipment etc.
Click to expand...

the world has become so small Mike, UPS is everywhere ;-)
 
Johntheoil said:
Thinking about temperatures and aircon, I believe the water temp in the Gulf can get so high in the summer that 'normal' spec marine a/c units will struggle to cope.
Click to expand...

good point, didn't think about that,
we know that a boat aircon, works in its least efficient modus, seawater delta T is at its smallest, both in summer (airco) and winder (heating ) mode, the latter you probably never need in the Gulf,

but defo something to check what happens with the cooling capacity of the airco system, with such a high seawater temp
 
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