Boat Hunting for Liveaboard in Dubai

[WorstCase]

To be honest, that doesn't sound like a lot of work, on any second hand boat you'd have to assume the batteries haven't been replaced recently and you'd need a coat of antifoul, there might be no need to scrape it, a powerful pressure washer will remove any loose paint. Engine you will need checked anyway and upholstery isn't a big job.
And once you get the bug, you'll be looking for stuff to upgrade anyway ;-)

Absolutely. As a matter of fact 30k I would say is not a major cost. I don't know whether it's enough for the things that need to be done though, and determining this is key in a possible negotiation.

 

[BartW]

Comments:

1) Re. Canados C70s (comparison with Blue Angel)

Fairly good condition,
Some parts from the superstructure look very good

Wood Rail capping is in sad state, but can be refurbished and varnished to good condition I think
What was the condition of the teac-decking ?

I don’t like the layout of the cockpit table and bench, waste of space, but this can be upgraded

The fridge compressors are still the original, with seawater cooled condenser,
They appear to be in good condition, (you must check)
on my boat, both were replaced by more modern, air cooled, fridges, but I would prefer the old original if still in good condition.

The floors in the cabin bathrooms, are in a sad state, not sure if this is a easy fix, ours are very much better,
and different / better finish

You need to replace all lights and all switches, (what we did on BA)
And You also need to replace all sanitary accessories, water taps, showers, and cabin door lock handles, upholstry, ...
non of this is a fundamental problem, nor outragous cost,
and many of these items you would want to replace anyway, even on a younger boat

The color and the condition of the saloon and cabin furniture looks good, little to no damage, not too yellow,

Appart from the shower floors, I have’nt seen any water leaks in the cabins (from the side decks)
How was the condition of the bulwarks ?

Where is the original lower helm seat ?

Crew cabin is warn out, (that’s a good sign, crew permanently onboard)
we gave ours a total refurbish

Looking at the throttles (non original) engines appear to be changed / modified ?
What was the serial nr of the boat, nr is written on all furniture, inside lockers, bottom of the drawers, (ours is 7019)

Navigation electronics, original have been upgraded, but quite long ago, so again outdated,
And the dashboards look messy

Would have liked some pics from the engine room, and some more from the lazarette
And more details on engines en genny’s and airco
Don’t worry about battery’s, count on new for any old boat you purchase, but price is neglectable in total scheme.

My opinion on this boat,
General conditions looks quite good (what can be seen from the pics)
But boat lacks some soul or little nice extra’s… and quite some work to get her looking mint.
You could get her at a real bargain price, but I believe that there might be slightly younger/ better specced C70’s or C23 / C24 available on the market,

If you consider buying this boat, you MUST be able to do a sea trial and survey before you can give a big engagement to the broker or owner,
for checking all systems and engines...


2) Re Cantieri Di Pisa Akhir

Absolutely lovely boat,
The wooden hull would put me off, but the condition of the hull and superstructure looks outstanding for its age
Have you checked the condition of teak deck, and remaining thickness ?
The interior is not my taste, but looks good, good condition, good finish, …
If you are in for something like this, this is absolutely a nice found

Have you seen already seen the SL57 and the T62 ?
Take your time to vieuw a few more boats

 

[WorstCase]

Comments:

1) Re. Canados C70s

Hello Bart,
uploading few more pictures that were left out somehow:
http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/ebabah/library/Canados 70s/Canados 70s 2?sort=3&page=1

No water leaks, only some discoloring on the wood of the side doors and the door to the fly probably from being exposed to sunlight while open.
Taps etc looked oxidize from sitting in the yard with some level of humidity inside the boat.
Wood work appeared to be in good condition. I have checked all the floor panels an were all solid.
Engine room was a bit messy but I cannot really comment on the condition of the equipment as I have no term of comparison.
Will get the serial number from the broker.
I have researched the market for similar boats also by asking brokers I have contacted for a certain boat about other models of interest, unfortunately we no new finds.

I have seen one of the two T62s and didn't go furter looking at the second one as my wife was not happy with it and I found it a bit dull, maybe seeing it after a CdP was not the best for her.
Sanlorenzo 57 is a lot of boat for the size but I am afraid it's too small. No standing clearance in engine room. No davits or crane for tender. Price is extremely low (the figure the broker gave me during the visit was meant for a sale on the spot) but I am concerned with size:
http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/ebabah/library/Sanlorenzo 57?sort=3&page=1

I did an evaluation sheet of the shortlisted boats and two came on top: Canados 70s and Akhir 20s. To be fair the 25 came in second... but I am scared of that boat although utterly in love with it.
Here's the 20s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlFRO0fK28Q
http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/ebabah/library/Akhir 20s?sort=3&page=1

 

[MapisM]

I did an evaluation sheet of the shortlisted boats and two came on top: Canados 70s and Akhir 20s. To be fair the 25 came in second... but I am scared of that boat although utterly in love with it.

If I may ask, which was your ranking among these 3 boats, and why?
The reason why you made me curious if that judging from your pics alone (and knowing a bit of the differences between those boats), I would have thought that the CdP 25 should be well above anything else you mentioned, particularly considering the usage you have in mind.
And leaving aside the wooden hull-related concerns, which you might have good reasons to have, but not necessarily.
Btw, am I right in guessing that she was retrofitted with hydraulic stabilizers?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Of course, thought you were referring to some particular news or regulation you were aware or heard about specifically related to the UAE/GCC
I am checking, but so far nothing sure, so I'll keep asking until I get a clear cut answer on this regard.

Part of my business is exporting used construction plant to the Mid East including the UAE and we have never been asked about engine emissions standards so I'd be very surprised if there were any emissions regulations concerning the importation of boats although you must check it out of course

 

[WorstCase]

If I may ask, which was your ranking among these 3 boats, and why?
The reason why you made me curious if that judging from your pics alone (and knowing a bit of the differences between those boats), I would have thought that the CdP 25 should be well above anything else you mentioned, particularly considering the usage you have in mind.
And leaving aside the wooden hull-related concerns, which you might have good reasons to have, but not necessarily.
Btw, am I right in guessing that she was retrofitted with hydraulic stabilizers?

Well... different items (budget, condition, layout, equipment etc) have different coefficient... some of the high multipliers applied to negative aspects of the 25... namely purchase price, maintenance, operational costs, etc... on space and looks it won hands down. Overall it came in second... but as I said I am a little bit scared of it although I find it absolutely awesome. Here's what I mean:

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/ebabah/library/Akhir 25s?sort=3&page=1

I haven't inquired about when exactly stabilizers were fitted but yes they're said to be in proper order and I believe they are a nice piece of kit to have on a hull that is exceptionally good already.

 

[davids0865]

Well... different items (budget, condition, layout, equipment etc) have different coefficient... some of the high multipliers applied to negative aspects of the 25... namely purchase price, maintenance, operational costs, etc... on space and looks it won hands down. Overall it came in second... but as I said I am a little bit scared of it although I find it absolutely awesome. Here's what I mean:

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/ebabah/library/Akhir 25s?sort=3&page=1

I haven't inquired about when exactly stabilizers were fitted but yes they're said to be in proper order and I believe they are a nice piece of kit to have on a hull that is exceptionally good already.

Hmm, see your issue, while I am in no position to comment on the specific boat, I would share your fear of the wooden hull, but, that does look special and I can understand your quandary, one of the big problems for boats like this in Europe is the cost of feeding those huge DD V12's, however on my last visit to Dubai last year I remember thinking that diesel at about €0.12 per litre would not matter in the scheme of things. Now MapisM and others of this parish are of the wooden boat persuasion and will tell you I'm sure, that for most maintenance items that wooden boats are no worse than a big grp boats, but, and it's a big one , they need to be in near perfect condition at purchase, and be kept that way. I wish you luck with your search.

 

[davids0865]

Just a little further thought, that hull looks like it is of double planked construction, which is preferable to ply, anyone confirm?

 

[MapisM]

Well... different items (budget, condition, layout, equipment etc) have different coefficient... some of the high multipliers applied to negative aspects of the 25... namely purchase price, maintenance, operational costs, etc... on space and looks it won hands down. Overall it came in second... but as I said I am a little bit scared of it although I find it absolutely awesome.

Wow, you are making a pretty scientific evaluation, I reckon!
Though along the lines of this approach, if you included some coefficients/multipliers also for maintenance, the "scary" part should be already included in the equation, shouldn't it?

Anyway, I'm not going to tell you (as davids envisaged) that for most maintenance items wooden boats are no worse than grp boats, because they are actually somewhat worse.
Meant as more expensive - not necessarily harder/more difficult.
For instance, painting/varnishing, which is a maintenance component typically more demanding with wooden boats, is something DIY-able, if you are so inclined.

Also, I partly disagree with what BartW said re. wooden HULLS, because in my experience, and also according to what I always heard from other folks regularly dealing with wooden boats, it's actually the superstructure that demands more maintenance.
In fact, it's no coincidence that fresh (i.e. rain) water is considered to be the real killer of wooden boats, rather than sea water.

Of course, if and when a wooden hull requires major repairs, the cost (and also the expertise required for a proper job) can be huge.
But I have yet to see a decently maintained wooden boat requiring major structural repairs.
And even if it's impossible to tell anything about the hull conditions from your pics alone, I would be surprised if anyone who appreciates a masterpiece like an Akhir 25 enough to buy one would neglect her to the point of requiring major hull repairs.
And that's something any surveyor worth its salt can verify beyond any reasonable doubt, anyway.

Bottom line, go for her, you know you want to. :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Just a little further thought, that hull looks like it is of double planked construction, which is preferable to ply, anyone confirm?

IIRC, the CdP wooden hulls were built in triple plank mahogany, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

 

[BartW]

Anyway, I'm not going to tell you (as davids envisaged) that for most maintenance items wooden boats are no worse than grp boats, because they are actually somewhat worse.
Meant as more expensive - not necessarily harder/more difficult.
For instance, painting/varnishing, which is a maintenance component typically more demanding with wooden boats, is something DIY-able, if you are so inclined.

Also, I partly disagree with what BartW said re. wooden HULLS, because in my experience, and also according to what I always heard from other folks regularly dealing with wooden boats, it's actually the superstructure that demands more maintenance.
In fact, it's no coincidence that fresh (i.e. rain) water is considered to be the real killer of wooden boats, rather than sea water.

well, I wrote hull, but I meant the total wooden boat ofcause,
and ofcause you're right that a wooden superstructure needs more maintenance than GRP,
that's why I pointed out the weak spots on a C70s,
and why I suggested to have a look around for C23 / C24, the slightly younger 75ft Canados with GRP superstructure.

Thing is, on a wooden boat, you have to make sure that any weak spot or issue in the construction is cured as soon as possible, to avoid bigger damage,
usually the boats are well enough designed so that water (also rain water) is drained quick and efficiently.
If you have gaps, crack's, leaks or a puddle of water somewhere in the wood, this can be the beginning of bigger damager later,
and I guess this is not different for the superstructure nor the hull,
so in that respect I would avoid a wooden boat,
The superstructure on our C70s is still in good condition, (as you have seen) and appart from a few small crack's / damages that we have repaired, I don't worry for on long term,
as I said, my only long term issues are the gunwale and the deck, both have been treated temporarely,
gunwale we made vent slot openings near the bottom according your advice remember ;-) more about that later in the BA rebuild thread

back to OP,
Re the Akhir's,
as has been said, absolutely fabulous boats, they were also high on my list when looking for a old ship, but at the time there was no nice example on the market
Perhaps for the middle east a perfect choice regarding style, resale etc,...

the 25 would put me off for:
- extra hassle obtaining +24m license,
- the DD engines, too old technology and I hate the noice (sorry Alf ;-))
- maintenance on the wood contsruction,

Re Canados 70s,
looking at the extra pictures that OP posted, and having looked at some others for sale,
I believe this is absolutely the best C70s on the market. as I said probably only 1 or 2 owners,
and all in very great condition, at that age
many items in the machine room look slighly better then mine
so yes, I understand your attraction to that boat.
she would be a very nice addition to my fleet

I didn't search hard, (only mondialbroker)
but I didn't find any C23 nor C24 for sale atm, last year there were a few,
so old boats do get sold !

E,
did you have a look at the Canados next to the Akhir25 ?
difficult to see from the pic if it is a 72 or something else
if 72, I guess much much younger and much more expensive?

 

[WorstCase]

IIRC, the CdP wooden hulls were built in triple plank mahogany, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

yes, triple plank mahogany

 

[WorstCase]

Thing is, on a wooden boat, you have to make sure that any weak spot or issue in the construction is cured as soon as possible, to avoid bigger damage,
usually the boats are well enough designed so that water (also rain water) is drained quick and efficiently.

I am trying to assess whether the wood would be less of a problem in the climate where the boat will be operating, and the saltier the water the better it seems to be. Regarding rain water we should be all set . The Akhir 20s for example comes with a full boat waterproof cover. (might be good for the sun in my case)

back to OP,
Re the Akhir's,
as has been said, absolutely fabulous boats, they were also high on my list when looking for a old ship, but at the time there was no nice example on the market
Perhaps for the middle east a perfect choice regarding style, resale etc,...

Will try to assess that as it will definitely be a concern at some point. I don't know if the minimalist interior would be appealing to the arab market but exclusivity surely does.

the 25 would put me off for:
- extra hassle obtaining +24m license,
- the DD engines, too old technology and I hate the noice (sorry Alf ;-))
- maintenance on the wood contsruction,

Technically it's 23.7m I guess Builders pulled marketing names back then as well. It should come with a complete set of factory drawings as I have seen on the 20s (quite a treat if you ask me) so I could verify, but all info I found so far state 23.7m

Re Canados 70s,
looking at the extra pictures that OP posted, and having looked at some others for sale,
I believe this is absolutely the best C70s on the market. as I said probably only 1 or 2 owners,
and all in very great condition, at that age
many items in the machine room look slighly better then mine
so yes, I understand your attraction to that boat.
she would be a very nice addition to my fleet

I was counting on your assessment of the boat because honestly without term of comparison it is difficult to go past the somewhat messy situation she was in.

I didn't search hard, (only mondialbroker)
but I didn't find any C23 nor C24 for sale atm, last year there were a few,
so old boats do get sold !

I tried my best to find alternatives for the shortlisted boats but nothing came up within range. Only one more CdP 20s and a 25s with grp hull both with modified stern (and transparent engine room floors...) but for a lot more money.

E,
did you have a look at the Canados next to the Akhir25 ?
difficult to see from the pic if it is a 72 or something else
if 72, I guess much much younger and much more expensive?

Not too close but close enough to understand her and I play the sport in different leagues


I'll try to have a second look on the way back to rome at the Canados and Akhir. Will see. I have noticed second visits do help.

 

[MapisM]

Technically it's 23.7m I guess Builders pulled marketing names back then as well. It should come with a complete set of factory drawings as I have seen on the 20s (quite a treat if you ask me) so I could verify, but all info I found so far state 23.7m

Can't tell for sure, but I very much doubt that back in those days a builder like CdP was thinking to impress their clients by labelling their boats as bigger than they were.
In fact, I suspect that the real boat length might actually be 25 solid meters (if not more!), and all the numbers you found prove is that formally (rather than technically) she was meant to appear a <24m boat, if you see what I mean...

Btw, also the Canados is actually longer than 70 feet - can't remember by how much exactly, but B surely can tell you more about that.

 

[WorstCase]

Can't tell for sure, but I very much doubt that back in those days a builder like CdP was thinking to impress their clients by labelling their boats as bigger than they were.
In fact, I suspect that the real boat length might actually be 25 solid meters (if not more!), and all the numbers you found prove is that formally (rather than technically) she was meant to appear a <24m boat, if you see what I mean...

Btw, also the Canados is actually longer than 70 feet - can't remember by how much exactly, but B surely can tell you more about that.

Yes I agree

 

[BartW]

Technically it's 23.7m I guess Builders pulled marketing names back then as well. It should come with a complete set of factory drawings as I have seen on the 20s (quite a treat if you ask me) so I could verify, but all info I found so far state 23.7m

OK thats good, because somewhere on a add I saw 25 meter length, so I expected 25m was on the papers
I believe that Ferretti is champion with this, registering / declaring a 90ft boat just below 23,9m

Canados 70s is:
deck length 21m
hull length 22m
loa including (extended) swim platform 23,5m

 

[BartW]

here is a 1995 C23, with brand new MAN engines
http://www.siciliamare.it/NavisPack...45&builder=Canados&model=CANADOS+23&year=1995

it is the one discussed in this thread;
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...t-Canados-what-is-the-catch&highlight=Canados

I've seen this boat, needs some repairs from water leaks, but has a totally refurbished engine room
I'm not sure if it still on the market

there still are a few C23 and C24 on the market,
the C23 has wooden superstructure (not GRP)just like the C70s, contrary to what I said before,
I'm not sure about the C24

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

here is a 1995 C23, with brand new MAN engines
http://www.siciliamare.it/NavisPack...45&builder=Canados&model=CANADOS+23&year=1995

That is still for sale? I thought it was sold to somebody else whilst your friend Oddvar was looking at buying it. Yes it still looks like a seriously nice boat especially with the new engines

 

[BartW]

That is still for sale? I thought it was sold to somebody else whilst your friend Oddvar was looking at buying it. Yes it still looks like a seriously nice boat especially with the new engines

don't know,
the Sicily broker is the only site where she's advertised, she's in the actual brokers listing
not sure if the listing is up to date, one could asc if interested

Heaven't heard from Oddvar since our meeting more then a year ago,
I'm afraid He didn't go for "big old boat" ownership

 

[WorstCase]

don't know,
the Sicily broker is the only site where she's advertised, she's in the actual brokers listing
not sure if the listing is up to date, one could asc if interested

Heaven't heard from Oddvar since our meeting more then a year ago,
I'm afraid He didn't go for "big old boat" ownership

Will inquire.
Unfortunately the price is not in line with what i ant to spend (even the negotiated one...) although the boat might be worth it.