Boat builder wants to end red diesel!

[Tisme]

Re: I think I get this...

I understand your concern about the possible rise in diesel prices but I suppose that what I am saying is that just shouting at the likes of Henry will do nothing to alter the situation. It will get it off your chest but no more.

On the environmental issue I'm getting a bit tired of the "small drop in the ocean" argument which seems to be churned out all the time.....though usually it's the airlines that are quoted, at least your Dublin ferry puts a new angle on it.
Of course you are right, BUT the political reality is that a politician or "The Sun" just has to mention leisure boats using tons of fuel and, in many peoples eyes, the case is made. It would be regarded as a small step to improving the environment but one which needs to be taken.

Sorry, but that's what I think the reality of the situation is.

 

[Tisme]

Re: taking bait

It sounds as if you are saying that the case has been made, everything possible has been done and you are entirely happy with progress to date.

Question; how many MP's have been won over and/or have indicated their support?

 

[rickp]

Re: taking bait

No, I said that the progress so far has been satisfactory in that it has at least been mentioned by the Govt in the last budget. The next step is to push for the report that they're supposed to be producing soon:

The Government will issue an initial regulatory impact assessment on the effects of ending the derogation for private pleasure craft early next year. This document will then be used as the basis for further information gathering and discussions.

I'm not sure why you're fixating on wining over MPs though. I don't see a vote coming up where they vote yay or nay on red diesel specifically. A vote is not needed to make an application to the EU to extend what is basically the status quo.

If we do not get an extension from the EU, then a change to the duty charged on red, or its removal totally will be included in a finance bill which will be nodded through.

Yes, it may help if various MPs strengthen the case put by the RYA and BMF but those MPs are probably already doing that if they're so minded based on receiving letters from their constituents. I've seen a few on South Today for instance.

Do you imagine there's going to be an "Red Diesel (2006) Bill" on which MPs will get a free vote or something?

Rick

 

[RupertW]

Re: taking bait

Ok assume I'm dim and let me know the top 3 arguments for keeping red diesel - and one sentence each.

The arguments in favour might be:
1) Removes an unfair advantage in one EU countries tax regime versus another

2) Encourages the use of more fuel efficient leisure boats (I know!!) resulting in less pollution and wash damage to our picturesque harbours and waterways

3) Um, can't think of any others

anyway - I would genuinely like to hear the arguments put in a way that would impress a non-mobo owner, or better still a government

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: I think I get this...

Come on KevB,

We are talking about a perfectly sensible tax on fuel, not on boats. Petrol users already pay it. Diesel users on dry land already pay it. What's the problem?

You should be talking about phasing, fair warning etc, not sticking your head in the sand. The posturing of the first two hundred posts (mine excepted) are just wasting your time and weakening your negotiating position. Do you think most of these posts will be taken seriously by government? They're all in the public domain as the considered view of your community. It looks terrible.

The current situation is an un-justifiable and absurd anomaly. No one on this site can defend it. Smell the coffee and be strong. Come up with a solution government will buy, but get ready for disappointment because this is an EU issue where the rest of Europe has moved on. Let's get ready to deal with reality and be positive about it by changing and being proactive.

As people move over to more environmentally friendly boating they will use less and pay less anyway. Electric boats may become more powerful and more viable. There are all sorts of possibilities that will become clearer when we move on from this issue.

Enough doom and gloom already. You don't want people like me to be the enemy unless you absolutely need to as a last resort. You don't know what I can do to spoil your day and you don't want to find out. Neither do I. I don't need enemies particularly, I just got bored of the industry at the boat show and thought I would give it some stick to see what happened. My business is not even in the leisure sector (although we might move into it). For me this is just a laugh, but you don't want me firing up the evils, which I will if you continue to be stupid.

Let's have some fun instead of all this anquish. Let's build something great. It could be good.

If not you, who?
If not now, when?

Take charge man!

 

[rickp]

Re: taking bait

I suggest you check on the Red Diesel forum or ask there.

Rick

 

[RupertW]

Re: taking bait

Thanks - I have looked and that's why I'm amazed that there is so much verbiage against the change and so few simple, killer arguments.

If the best argument is "It would hurt my boating" then it's amazing the government has defended it for so long. But it is thread drift so let's get back to abusing silly Henry.

 

[Tisme]

Re: taking bait

I'm not sure where you get the "fixating on MP's" idea from.

YOU said that a persuasive case had been made
YOU said that individuals had written to MP's.
I asked about how many letters of support had been received from MP's. I take it the answer is none?

 

[rickp]

Re: taking bait

I suggest you read the red diesel forum as folks have mentioned on there when they've had replies. My point about a persuasive case is valid - the govt have at least taken some steps. You think they wouldn't have if the RYA, BMF and constituents weren't making a case?

I'll not respond on here anymore, just on the appropriate forum.

Rick

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: taking bait

Don't be such a frickin' coward Rick. YOU have not had any stick.

Give us your views. You could have something worthwhile to say and we could all learn from you. Hang around and get in there.

 

[MedDreamer]

Ecocat calling....Ecocatalling

Your rantings seemed familiar and I've being trying to think where I've heard it before. You're Lord Haw Haw aren't you.

I personally don't think you're anything more than an elaborate troll. Certainly got everyone going but you're a fake aren't you?

On the other hand if you were a UKIP candidate that could make you real. There are definite similarities between your style of self important bullsh!t and that other eminent (ex) UKIP moron Kilroy-Silk.

 

[boatbuilder]

Re: Ecocat calling....Ecocatalling

Unfortuately hr is not a fake, I have met him and I'm not at all suprised at the furore he has caused. He can do that just by saying good morning.
The guys I feel sorry for are Andy Fox and his team who actually build the boats, good builders and not helped by henrys style of creating new sales. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Sgeir]

Re: taking bait

As you may know from my previous posts on subject, I'm not terribly convinced of the red diesel case for pleasure boats, except for
<ul type="square"> 1 the bureaucratic costs of admininistering a two tier system - one for commercial users ("what about charterers?" I hear you ask) and one for pleasure boaters;
2 the employment and social issues - the kiss of death for the UK's remaining boatbuilding yards. [/list]

I suspect those arguments weighed more than no end of MOBO special pleading.

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: taking bait

Rick,

I didn't mean to be nasty, but I realise I was.

I just wanted to encourage you in a jocular way to continue to make your contributions - because it is obvious you know what you are talking about.

Sorry. Please come back.

Henry

 

[tcm]

\"Special Pleading\" for red diesel

Declared interest - none. I'm a brit . I have a powerboat in the med. The juice is a bit cheaper in Gibraltar, or elsewhere more expensive or a lot more expensive than in the UK.

Put the taxes up all you like - the boaters are drifting away. But i USED to have a powerboat in the uk, and even brought it back from the med. It was ok, but not as special as it could have been.

In the med, many places are keen to welcome boaters. They send staff down to help with mooring, even employ special staff for this very purpose. I don't think it's ever happened in the UK. The local council makes sure that the places attracts boaters, which helps tourism partly thru the boaters themselves, partly because it makes it a buzzy and a "happening" place. Soem marinas even have swimming pools. Yep, you pay, but it's good.

So, if you can get away with it - yep - why not stick the taxes up? Everyone seems to have been hypnotised into some "inevitability" scenario in the same way as a while back having the Euro and and European president was "inevitable". But it wasn't. Neither are ever-higher taxes. Those with their head in the sands might be those arguing for european protectionist policies, when markets are being taken by other countries around the world.

What is fact is - it's my money. So it's not at all inevitable that i pay an indirect tax in this country instead of in another. Having moved the uk-built boat to the med - temporarily, we thought - i saw boats from other countries. Better spec and cheaper, So i bought an Italian one instead of british. I chose to have it EU-vat-paid but here again there was competition. Overall, perhaps a million or more in taxes didn't go to the uk exchequer. Doesn't need too many before your righteous tax take on diesel is reduced to a more significantly negative overall effect.

Imposing indirect taxes in this case won't inevitably lead to buying cats, for goodness sakes. Cos the tax might go up again. People will switch to sail, or do something else completely, like go abroad, as they are already doing in their thousands, spending money there instesad of here.

From this starting point the sensible route would be to reduce red diesel tax, and and other taxes that thwart uk tourism.

Sepretly, i am not at all sure that Henry is gonna "build anything". 400 votes for him as the ukip in West ham, spiritual hiome of the little Englander and Alf garnett shows how effective his efforts and judgement can be. Being head of a catamaran company but "not good at maths" is another bad sign, to put it mildly.

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel

Guys,

My name is Henry and I have become addicted to you.

That needs to stop - for both our sakes.

The problem is, I can't think of anything more thrilling than duking it out with you in our video game world.

I have neglected my work.

I have neglected my family.

I have become callous and overbearing (or was I like that to start with, it was so long ago).

Guys, we don't treat each other with respect any more. We have replaced humans with keyboards, faces with screens.

I am sorry for all the hurt I have caused and I will try to change.

I am a chat room addict.

My name is Henry.

Goodbye.

 

[JKay]

Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel

Hoooraa Henry Hooooorrraaa /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

cheers Joe

 

[Sgeir]

Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel

Dear TCM

This is all very interesting and I hope you feel better having got it all off your chest, but I didn't actually argue for the elimination of the derogation.

I merely said that I wan't "terribly convinced" of the case for retention of the red diesel derogation. As for my "righteous tax take", well, I didn't actually argued any case for a tax take, righteous or not. So there! (Well errmm, at least not in this thread /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

I did suggest that the arguments concerning the administrative nightmare of a two tier system, and the employment issues, were likely the most persuasive with government. I stand by that.

I also thought some of the arguments in the red diesel campaign were, at best, counter-productive. It looked like "special pleading", sounded like "special pleading", and I stand by that.

Yours ay

Sgeir

 

[tcm]

Typical politician

Doesn't argue the case, ducks questions, talks big, thinks slightly. Special subject - himself, with favourtite word being "I".

 

[tcm]

Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel

sorry, yours was a handy post to hang my near-rant. forgive me.