wakeup
Well-Known Member
Re: Typical politician
Yep corny but no "I" in "team" but "U" in "[--word removed--]"
Yep corny but no "I" in "team" but "U" in "[--word removed--]"
Boat builder wants to end red diesel!
- Thread starter rich
- Start date
tcm
...
The government should argue THEIR case, imho
sorry, yours was a handy post to hang mine. forgive me. I know there will need to be "special pleading" but i don't agree that should have to be.
In days gone by, the government had to plead to impose a tax inparliament. That was only 200 years ago, and only as a temporary measure. Nowadays it's the other way around. I don't think it should be so.
The governemnt/eu case to raise the tax is pathetic. It's cos that country over there raises the tax (although only those in the eu) . This is about as rubbish an argument as aking for a pay rise cos other people in your local pub seem to earn a bit more money (even tho admittedly you're already earning more than almost all others in all the other pubs).
sorry, yours was a handy post to hang mine. forgive me. I know there will need to be "special pleading" but i don't agree that should have to be.
In days gone by, the government had to plead to impose a tax inparliament. That was only 200 years ago, and only as a temporary measure. Nowadays it's the other way around. I don't think it should be so.
The governemnt/eu case to raise the tax is pathetic. It's cos that country over there raises the tax (although only those in the eu) . This is about as rubbish an argument as aking for a pay rise cos other people in your local pub seem to earn a bit more money (even tho admittedly you're already earning more than almost all others in all the other pubs).
Major Catastrophe
Well-Known Member
Re: taking bait
Found the bounder.
Stick this on your dart boards.
Henry Mayhew
Found the bounder.
Stick this on your dart boards.
Henry Mayhew
tcm
...
Re: taking bait
hm, it's a bit giant and makes the thread unuseable. Good thing probably..
hm, it's a bit giant and makes the thread unuseable. Good thing probably..
Major Catastrophe
Well-Known Member
Re: taking bait
Things will settle down on next page of post.
Or do you want me to pull it?
Things will settle down on next page of post.
Or do you want me to pull it?
tcm
...
Re: taking bait
can you resize it? I don't know how to do that but i hear about it all the time.
can you resize it? I don't know how to do that but i hear about it all the time.
Major Catastrophe
Well-Known Member
Re: taking bait
Now, go to bed.
Now, go to bed.
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel
Nae problemo Matteus, and I look forward to making your acquaintance on your gallivantations to northern climes in April/May.
And, BTW, how are the old diesel injectors these days?
Nae problemo Matteus, and I look forward to making your acquaintance on your gallivantations to northern climes in April/May.
And, BTW, how are the old diesel injectors these days?
tcm
...
Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel
oh, all very smooth now. We think it was a blocked pipe, not so much the injector itself. Also erm, i discovered after four years that the engine hatch didn't shut properly so er fixed it and the noise levels much reduced, ahem.
I am gonna feel a bit foreign aren't I? Shall i bring a passport?
oh, all very smooth now. We think it was a blocked pipe, not so much the injector itself. Also erm, i discovered after four years that the engine hatch didn't shut properly so er fixed it and the noise levels much reduced, ahem.
I am gonna feel a bit foreign aren't I? Shall i bring a passport?
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel
[ QUOTE ]
Shall i bring a passport?
[/ QUOTE ]Dinnae bother wi that, but mind to pick up the bevvy at the duty-free. Do you do Ebers, or are you Corgi registered?
[ QUOTE ]
Shall i bring a passport?
[/ QUOTE ]Dinnae bother wi that, but mind to pick up the bevvy at the duty-free. Do you do Ebers, or are you Corgi registered?
tcm
...
eber thingies
can't we just turn the gas rings up high? That usually get's it dead hot indoors, and saves several hundreds of quids installing things where even the name is complicated, so the kit is just bound to a nightmare, like gaggenau but worse.
Naturally, i will of course pay a visit to the offie beforehand. It's the least i can do. And that's why i'll do it, cos I have carefuly analysed "hm, wot is the least i can do?" and decided that going to the offie is about the very least possible thing.
Is there a gin-based joke going around? The auld misery asked me if i like gin? Is it the gin-palace joke, perhaps? Or do you all have heather-flavoured gin-drinking rituals?
can't we just turn the gas rings up high? That usually get's it dead hot indoors, and saves several hundreds of quids installing things where even the name is complicated, so the kit is just bound to a nightmare, like gaggenau but worse.
Naturally, i will of course pay a visit to the offie beforehand. It's the least i can do. And that's why i'll do it, cos I have carefuly analysed "hm, wot is the least i can do?" and decided that going to the offie is about the very least possible thing.
Is there a gin-based joke going around? The auld misery asked me if i like gin? Is it the gin-palace joke, perhaps? Or do you all have heather-flavoured gin-drinking rituals?
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Special Pleading\" for red diesel
[ QUOTE ]
I have neglected my work.
I have neglected my family.
I have become callous and overbearing.
[/ QUOTE ] Oh Oh! That's the 1st signs. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I have neglected my work.
I have neglected my family.
I have become callous and overbearing.
[/ QUOTE ] Oh Oh! That's the 1st signs. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
KevB
Well-Known Member
Re: I think I get this...
Henry,
Surely you can see the similarity between the two scenarios? The efforts of the US government to raise taxes on the boating leisure industry only effected a small proportion of boaters (those buying new boats) but it still nearly crippled the industry and caused thousands of redundancies with no gain in tax revenue. What your are advocating is putting a similar burden on ALL UK boaters who have a diesel engine!!
Not all of us own "gin palaces" and a sharp rise in diesel costs will add a significant % cost to our boating. The US added 10% to new boat costs as a one off tax, what you want to do is add a similar amount of expense to many of us ad infinitum.......
I only have x amount of disposable income to finance boating, if the costs of running my boat increase significantly I would have to make cutbacks elsewhere to justify continuing. The restaurants, marinas and the business who supply the gadgets I buy for the boat will be out of pocket as this is where my cutbacks will be. Like me I expect there are a lot of people in this position and as a result a lot of these business who rely on boaters wont survive.
Maybe the thought of all these people being out of work excites you and in your own way see it as acceptable consequence as long as you sell a couple more "eco" boats?
Henry,
Surely you can see the similarity between the two scenarios? The efforts of the US government to raise taxes on the boating leisure industry only effected a small proportion of boaters (those buying new boats) but it still nearly crippled the industry and caused thousands of redundancies with no gain in tax revenue. What your are advocating is putting a similar burden on ALL UK boaters who have a diesel engine!!
Not all of us own "gin palaces" and a sharp rise in diesel costs will add a significant % cost to our boating. The US added 10% to new boat costs as a one off tax, what you want to do is add a similar amount of expense to many of us ad infinitum.......
I only have x amount of disposable income to finance boating, if the costs of running my boat increase significantly I would have to make cutbacks elsewhere to justify continuing. The restaurants, marinas and the business who supply the gadgets I buy for the boat will be out of pocket as this is where my cutbacks will be. Like me I expect there are a lot of people in this position and as a result a lot of these business who rely on boaters wont survive.
Maybe the thought of all these people being out of work excites you and in your own way see it as acceptable consequence as long as you sell a couple more "eco" boats?
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Re: The government should argue THEIR case, imho
[ QUOTE ]
The governemnt/eu case to raise the tax is pathetic. It's cos that country over there raises the tax (although only those in the eu) . This is about as rubbish an argument as aking for a pay rise cos other people in your local pub seem to earn a bit more money (even tho admittedly you're already earning more than almost all others in all the other pubs).
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, no it's quite logical if you actually want to integrate Europe. Tax harmonisation is a vital step to making sure that all goods and services can flow from one country to another based on their actual production costs and quality. It's all taking far too long because each country has over-complex and historically based quirky taxes and a special pleading campaign each time an alignment is attempted.
Fine to disagree with EU integration (I'm in favour, myself) but you need to understand the logic behind your enemies actions.
[ QUOTE ]
The governemnt/eu case to raise the tax is pathetic. It's cos that country over there raises the tax (although only those in the eu) . This is about as rubbish an argument as aking for a pay rise cos other people in your local pub seem to earn a bit more money (even tho admittedly you're already earning more than almost all others in all the other pubs).
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, no it's quite logical if you actually want to integrate Europe. Tax harmonisation is a vital step to making sure that all goods and services can flow from one country to another based on their actual production costs and quality. It's all taking far too long because each country has over-complex and historically based quirky taxes and a special pleading campaign each time an alignment is attempted.
Fine to disagree with EU integration (I'm in favour, myself) but you need to understand the logic behind your enemies actions.
Andrew_Fanner
Well-Known Member
Re: The government should argue THEIR case, imho
>>>
Fine to disagree with EU integration (I'm in favour, myself) but you need to understand the logic behind your enemies actions.
>>>
Isn't the logic to allow France and Germany to dominate Europe without the inconvenience of waiting for another Napoleon or Hitler to be born, and the risk of still coming second?
Tax harmonisation _might_ be OK if taxes harmonised in a downwards direction. But that seems not to be the case. Note that the US, a federal system with a single currency blah blah has variable local state taxes as well as federal ones, harmonisation?
Carbon credits and flat rate tax is probably the only sensible way forward.
>>>
Fine to disagree with EU integration (I'm in favour, myself) but you need to understand the logic behind your enemies actions.
>>>
Isn't the logic to allow France and Germany to dominate Europe without the inconvenience of waiting for another Napoleon or Hitler to be born, and the risk of still coming second?
Tax harmonisation _might_ be OK if taxes harmonised in a downwards direction. But that seems not to be the case. Note that the US, a federal system with a single currency blah blah has variable local state taxes as well as federal ones, harmonisation?
Carbon credits and flat rate tax is probably the only sensible way forward.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Re: The government should argue THEIR case, imho
I won't even try to debate the pro/anti EU thing, but on tax harmonisation then I don' t think it does matter whether they harmonise up or down - the main thing is getting to a point where decisions about the level of tax can be taken at a broad enough level for it to really matter. Some taxes I'd personally like higher, some lower and if we get into that argument first then that blocks harmonisation even more.
Good point on the US, but they do have the same basic tax structure on which they add state taxes. Europe is a long way from that, but getting there.
I won't even try to debate the pro/anti EU thing, but on tax harmonisation then I don' t think it does matter whether they harmonise up or down - the main thing is getting to a point where decisions about the level of tax can be taken at a broad enough level for it to really matter. Some taxes I'd personally like higher, some lower and if we get into that argument first then that blocks harmonisation even more.
Good point on the US, but they do have the same basic tax structure on which they add state taxes. Europe is a long way from that, but getting there.
tcm
...
Little Europeans
European integration is all very well.
But surely a more progressive option would be to invite people to join a World Union, outward looking instead of a small-minded "europe only" EU. How about that? It's strange that the uk doesn't belong to a trading bloc that includes canada and australia, in the same way as portugal and spain should sensibly trade more freely with south america - as well as amongst local countries too.
back to this isue, note anyway that the free flow of goods and services has already driven many boaters to the med cos even with the higher priced fuel there it is more attractive (for them) to be there, whereas very few europeans come to uk and base their boats here. Harmonisation and healthy competition in this regard doesn't mean that everthing should be priced at precisely the same level.
I mean, diesel prices opr even different income tax isn't the main block to integration, when almost half the french and a majority in the south voted to chuck out anyone who looks a bit foreign, for example. Integration is going slowly cos not enough people want it. Whereas an end to a war or even creation of new countries as with czechoslovakia comes quickly if a majority want it.
There hasn't ever been a joint european sports team that we all cheer as "our team" and it's this lack of all europeans being "us" that mean it is ultimately doomed to fail, imho. In the footy world cup we don't even have a blimmin UK team so there's a distance to go in this regard.
Alright, we'll call it an Earth Union to save on new letterhead etc.
European integration is all very well.
But surely a more progressive option would be to invite people to join a World Union, outward looking instead of a small-minded "europe only" EU. How about that? It's strange that the uk doesn't belong to a trading bloc that includes canada and australia, in the same way as portugal and spain should sensibly trade more freely with south america - as well as amongst local countries too.
back to this isue, note anyway that the free flow of goods and services has already driven many boaters to the med cos even with the higher priced fuel there it is more attractive (for them) to be there, whereas very few europeans come to uk and base their boats here. Harmonisation and healthy competition in this regard doesn't mean that everthing should be priced at precisely the same level.
I mean, diesel prices opr even different income tax isn't the main block to integration, when almost half the french and a majority in the south voted to chuck out anyone who looks a bit foreign, for example. Integration is going slowly cos not enough people want it. Whereas an end to a war or even creation of new countries as with czechoslovakia comes quickly if a majority want it.
There hasn't ever been a joint european sports team that we all cheer as "our team" and it's this lack of all europeans being "us" that mean it is ultimately doomed to fail, imho. In the footy world cup we don't even have a blimmin UK team so there's a distance to go in this regard.
Alright, we'll call it an Earth Union to save on new letterhead etc.
duncan
Well-Known Member
Re: The government should argue THEIR case, imho
[ QUOTE ]
Tax harmonisation is a vital step to making sure that all goods and services can flow from one country to another based on their actual production costs and quality.
[/ QUOTE ]
absolutely agree
however you will not find this on the UK Gov agenda at all. As harmonising the taxation of red diesel, heating oil and other carbon fuels outwith road use with Europe would be a step in that direction it is also conspicuosly abscent from any (stated) agenda !!!
One of the justifications for the taxation of fuels for road use is that the tax raised is used, in part, for the mainenace and development of the infrastructure.
One of the arguments for not increasing the tax on red diesel for boats to the level of road vehicles is that they don't use the roads.............
[ QUOTE ]
Tax harmonisation is a vital step to making sure that all goods and services can flow from one country to another based on their actual production costs and quality.
[/ QUOTE ]
absolutely agree
however you will not find this on the UK Gov agenda at all. As harmonising the taxation of red diesel, heating oil and other carbon fuels outwith road use with Europe would be a step in that direction it is also conspicuosly abscent from any (stated) agenda !!!
One of the justifications for the taxation of fuels for road use is that the tax raised is used, in part, for the mainenace and development of the infrastructure.
One of the arguments for not increasing the tax on red diesel for boats to the level of road vehicles is that they don't use the roads.............
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Re: The government should argue THEIR case, imho
I agree it's not high on the UK gov agenda, or any other country's. That's why the EU commission is plugging ahead so slowly - basically boring the governments to death one step at a time. The UK government rarely promotes harmonisation, just grudgingly accepts its or puts up a little bit of a fight.
Silly differences in tax on cigarettes and alcohol area very slowly being reduced and have been for 10 years, but until then a whole smuggling industry has a chance to thrive. Even though I agree with punitive pro-health taxes, they can't be truly effective in an open market unless all the others agree.
Re. "world union" - I think my childhood prediliction for sci-fi led me to think that a World government was the perfect solution, and gives me a positive gut-feeling about any form of integration and federalism. Today Europe, tomorrow (well, perhaps not), the rest.
How did we get to this point in the thread? I think I'll give up now and go back to discussing perfect string tensions on the raggie forum.
I agree it's not high on the UK gov agenda, or any other country's. That's why the EU commission is plugging ahead so slowly - basically boring the governments to death one step at a time. The UK government rarely promotes harmonisation, just grudgingly accepts its or puts up a little bit of a fight.
Silly differences in tax on cigarettes and alcohol area very slowly being reduced and have been for 10 years, but until then a whole smuggling industry has a chance to thrive. Even though I agree with punitive pro-health taxes, they can't be truly effective in an open market unless all the others agree.
Re. "world union" - I think my childhood prediliction for sci-fi led me to think that a World government was the perfect solution, and gives me a positive gut-feeling about any form of integration and federalism. Today Europe, tomorrow (well, perhaps not), the rest.
How did we get to this point in the thread? I think I'll give up now and go back to discussing perfect string tensions on the raggie forum.
Gludy
Well-Known Member
Re: taking bait
A simple killer arguement is the fact that increasing the tax will not raise any more revenue for the government . This has been explained in depth in previois post but basically 2% drop in the £2bn collected from the marine industry now totally wipes out any possible increase in revenue. So if the combined effect is that people use boats less, some boats go abroad etc etc then there is likely to be much more than a 2% drop in the market.
So for a likely drop in tax revenue there would be job losses and a lot of hassle for the goverment.
A simple killer arguement is the fact that increasing the tax will not raise any more revenue for the government . This has been explained in depth in previois post but basically 2% drop in the £2bn collected from the marine industry now totally wipes out any possible increase in revenue. So if the combined effect is that people use boats less, some boats go abroad etc etc then there is likely to be much more than a 2% drop in the market.
So for a likely drop in tax revenue there would be job losses and a lot of hassle for the goverment.
