Boat builder wants to end red diesel!

[redglow]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

Henry,

It's been said by others but you seem not to understand, so I'll try and simplify it for you.

This thread is not about the pros and cons of cats, nor is it about the rights and wrongs of lower rates of tax on diesel - of course we want low rates we use loads of it.

What I, and others who have posted want to know is:-

Why do you want your own customers to pay three times as much for there fuel than they do now? Surely if they can have cheaper fuel too then it is better for them?

I certainly wouldn't buy a boat from somebody who actively campaigned to increase my running costs!

Kev

 

[tcm]

Democracy

Your position is a bit mad really. It's very VERY self-serving, and unacceptably so, imho.

I wouldn't expect car manufacturers to lobby for more expensive bus/rail fares, or airplane/holiday operators to lobby for higher channel ferry prices, or restaurants to openly campaign against home cooking. You've done the same. INstead of making your own product better you're hoping to make their a lot worse. Appalling, imho.


Btw, in a debate, it's slightly hopeless and weak to say "it's a democracy" or that you can say what you like unles free speech is indeed at issue. Of course you can say what you want - but it rather shows that the *only* justification of your viewpoint is the exercise of "free speech".

 

[Gludy]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

Henry
"Well, I don't think I am trying to raise the cost of cats to the same level as monohulls. I am doing the opposite "

How? Your are campaigning to bring the cost of running such a cat up to the level of the cost of running todays mono hull by doing away with red - that is a fact ... agreed?

You are increasing the cost of boating agreed?


Those who could just afford a cat today but not a mon hull would if red goes not afford either agreed?


"calling for the same tax on leisure diesel as on private car use - to encourage boaters to use more environmentally-friendly boat designs, namely cats."

So you are seeking a tax increase that in practice would mean that the price of fuel to cat owners more than doubles ... correct?


"I am campaigning for this because I believe in it and believe in participating in democracy. I am very happy for you to campaign against. What's the problem? Why should we have low-tax diesel for leisure boat use anyway? Isn't it your position that is the weak one?"

You have right to say what you want but others have r ight to point out how illogical and self centred your arguements are ........ no one disputes your right to bring your campany down and present it so badly to boaters - nor try to betray its customers by trying to sell a cost saving whilst you campaign to do away with that very cost saving.


"Why should we have low-tax diesel for leisure boat use anyway?"

I could take you apart on that point beleive me but I am trying to keep the issue down to what you have campaigned for. First of all its not low or high tax its just tax .... anyone can call it high, low or medium. Why should we be taxed at road fuel rates without the roads? Why have no tax on much more environmentally dmaging tax such as plane fuel?

You are in the weak position and I shall do all I can to point out to everyone that you are selling a saving and at the same time capmaigning to end that saving.

Do you accept that doing away with red would more then double the fuel costs of a cat that already normally has higher berthing cost?

Do you accept that you are campaigning to more than double the fuel costs of cat owners?

 

[hobiecat]

My opinion is that the uncertainty is the worst problem and is doing a great deal of damage to the industry. I acknowledge derogation will hurt the industry as a whole but it will recover when a decison is made one way or another. However, I suspect the decision has already been made and the labour goverment is going to say they tried and failed to keep red diesel in the face of strong European opposition. I dont think an increase in the diesel price will help cats much in the short term - the boats run on the same fuel after all. Cats will increase in popularity whether fuel prices increase or not in both leisure and commercial fields -there are many more benefits within these designs.

If you ask me for my opinion on whether red should go. - In spite of damage to the industry my instinct tells me we should have a fuel tax system in line with Europe. I guess this would mean more expensive boat fuel but cheaper road fuel in line with the rest of Europe.

I hope this is not the start of more grossly unreasonable postings for expressing an opinion and personal slagging off. I respect other opinions. I am involved with selling a brand of cats for the record.

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

As I think I put in my letter calling for tax harmonisation, low tax diesel distorts the boat market towards big, fast monohulls. I am campaigning against it to make buyers consider catamarans more favourably, which will be of benefit to catamaran builders, namely, Ecocats.

BarryH, you deserve a pay rise or gold star for your perspicacity Sir! Our market is currently almost exclusively commercial because professionals are happy to pay the extra cost of building a cat. We need fuel tax harmonisation to make the leisure market viable.

Current tax policy is a big problem. Big monohulls are incredibly cheap to run because diesel tax is 5p a litre instead of 47p. If tax went up we wouldn't be able to build leisure cats fast enough. Even so, we are currently moving to much bigger premises because we can't keep up with demand. Have you seen how many more commercial cats are around these days than there were a few years ago? Where the commercial world leads, the leisure world often follows.

I am worried for the UK monohull industry, not trying to destroy it. Don't my colleagues sometimes act as though change isn't going to happen? Wake-up call time.

 

[Gludy]

Victor
I disagree with a number of your points but you have not campaigned publically for red to go - you have not hidden behind the eco clothes etc. This company has.

This thread is about a company that is campaigning against the interests of its own customers. wanting to lift the cost of boating be it cats or mono beyond what many can afford and frankly has stupid, ill thought out eco points.

The company seems to supply the commercial side more than the lesiure side and of cours 99& of commerce is involved with what we could call leisure anyway so any eco points would and should really deal with the major use of red for commerce - this accounts for over 99% of the use yet this company is only camapigning against the leisure user.

I am not going to let let henry of the hook ........ I want answers to my questions - I do not want a blatent advertsising campaign in every sentence - I think he has no idea how obvious that is to this forum.


I think fuel costs are rising like mad anayway and that cats will have an increasingly important role to play. I wish there were some big cats in the UK that could offer real alternatives at the higher end of the market. I am pro cats not against them. However that is not the point here.

 

[BarryH]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

So you want to increase the overheads of commercial users and eat into their profits. I can't see that your doing yourself many favours really. You produce passenger ferry type boats. A lot of the smaller operators already use cats in this application. They tend to run diesels as motive power. Its a catch 22 situation really. Commercial small passenger fleets will become costlier to run eating into profits. Lower profits mean that replacement vessels won't be as easily or frequently replaced.
Your killing your market yourself. OK thats a very simplistic view. But the bottom line to any business is profit. Your hurting operaters profits before you've sold your product.
But the main market you be hurting is the lesuire market, which at the moment, you don't service. I cannot see the logic behind your actions.

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

Gents,

I have got to go to lunch now and have other things to do this PM. I hope I have answered the questions asked. If not, sorry. Please just consider whether an ongoing rate of 5p a litre makes sense from an environmental or market perspective. Thanks for debating. I wish you all happy boating.

 

[Gludy]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

Henry
You are trying to box clever and you are avoiding answering my questions.

[ QUOTE ]

I am campaigning against it to make buyers consider catamarans more favourably, which will be of benefit to catamaran builders, namely, Ecocats.


[/ QUOTE ]

Every word you write is like an advert and you have no admitted why you want others taxed - so that you can gain. Wow ...... you are wanting others taxed so that your company can gain ... even though that means that you increase costs to your customers .......... wow. At least you really beginning to bang the nails in your coffin.

I have built many businesses Henry and currently we have over 300 employees - not massive but not bad and I have learnt lessons on the way. One is you grow by virtue of making your product the best in the market not by asking government to damage your competition so that your product can be in a more favourable light.
However I am at least grateful that you have admitted that the reason you want red gone is so that your company can gain. I frankly find that a shameful way to act especially when it is directly against the interest of your own customers and against the interest of the boating industry to boot.

So we now have nail one in place .... your totally selfish reason behind your campaign declared for all to see.

We can now move onto nail two:-

Do you accept that if red goes cat owners would face a doubling to trebling of diesel prices?

Simple question ... please answer it.

 

[finnlou]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

I think he ran out of nails ages ago Gludy /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Gludy]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

Henry
If that means you are not returning to the forum then you have really done yourself more damage ..... it seems its arrogance personified - I hope you do return because opting out will only do you more damage.

You have failed to answer my direct simple questions and these were posted in emails before you joined the thread as well as on the thread.

 

[duncan]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

[ QUOTE ]
As I think I put in my letter calling for tax harmonisation, low tax diesel distorts the boat market towards big, fast monohulls. I am campaigning against it to make buyers consider catamarans more favourably, which will be of benefit to catamaran builders, namely, Ecocats

[/ QUOTE ]

in the scale of BIG and FAST I cannot understand how you are positioning your arguments at all?

most cats that could be considered big (by anyone other than a jetski owner) are commercial and coming off the production lines with diesel engines .............

leisure boaters will be more cognicent of fuel prices and running costs overall but taken together with berthing and capital costs.

there is another recent thread on diesel engines and cats - as a leisure owner I wouldn't hesitate to purchase the diesel engine option; I am afraid that any hesitation between prospective builders however may also now be shortcircuted in the future.

You are correct that we currently have an anomoly re fuel tax however that you wish to implement change to artificially create a marketing opportunity is scandalous and moves you from the high ground to the lowest in one swift leap.

 

[Gludy]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

He might have run out of nails but I had not!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I think his last post means he is out of it!

Pity because I was just sharpening my stake for the through the heart bit!

I may well be in the market in the future for a big cat but I would rather be hauled over hot coals than even consider his company for anything. There is always advertsing standards left as a nail if the claims cannot be supported. he did not answer the questions from others on what basis he was making his claims. I will be following this up with a leet to his company for the supporting facts and if I am not happy I will persue it. He has really upset me on this issue.

The bulk of commerce including ferry passengers are only involved in supplying the market with non-essential leisure products so I think I should campaign to have commercial red removed ... after all it is a far bigger user of red and so there will be much larger eco gains!!!!!

I was surprised tha he ended up his admitting his real selfish reason for the campaign was for his company to gain. So he did admit that he was in effect selling out his industry and customers for his own gain!

 

[Gludy]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

hENRY
" Please just consider whether an ongoing rate of 5p a litre makes sense from an environmental or market perspective. Thanks for debating. I wish you all happy boating. "

So you mean that this rate should be done away with and commercial red withdrawn as well? Commercial use is vast compared to leisure use and so naturally the environmental issues so much greater.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

One of the main trade journals is IBI, which is an IPC journal. Maybe they'd like to follow up?

International Boat Industry
IPC Country & Leisure Media Ltd,
Leon House, 233 High Street
Croydon, CR9 1HZ
UK

Publisher: Nick Hopkinson
tel: +44 (0)20 8726 8119
fax: +44 (0)20 8726 8196
email: nick_hopkinson@ipcmedia.com

 

[andy_wilson]

Tax in line with Europe.

I fear that if road fuel tax came down, something else would go up, to acheive "Tax in line with Europe".

 

[tcm]

Re: Tax in line with Europe.

i wonder if can STOP fearing such things? Taxes can't go up beyond 100% and the UK govt's record of spending wisely is not very good.

 

[Gludy]

Victor
Now Henry seems to have departed i thought it may be worthwhile following up on some of your points.

"I acknowledge derogation will hurt the industry as a whole but it will recover when a decison is made one way or another."

I do not think it will recover to its former size. The bottom end of the market will be hit hard and the top end move away. The market will be smaller.

Fuel prices are rising and will continue to rise anyway and because of this I think the proportion of cats in the market will increase with time. ... the market will adjust with time .... However doing away with red will hurt the size of the market as a whole and many would be boaters will not become boaters. The move to cats will increasingly happen anyway.

"If you ask me for my opinion on whether red should go. - In spite of damage to the industry my instinct tells me we should have a fuel tax system in line with Europe. I guess this would mean more expensive boat fuel but cheaper road fuel in line with the rest of Europe."

But that is not going to happen - I would settle for the same overall prices on and off road as Europe but we are already the highest taxed country in Europe and whilst Mr Brown is there our lead in this will only increase.

Tell you what - drop the high band tax rate from 40% to 25% Mr Brown and I will let the red diesel go! ..... no chance.

Ok Mr. Brown drastically cut your tax revenue from petrol and I will accept red going? ...... no chance.


Any higher tax is yet another tax hike on what are record levels of tax with billions of it being wasted anyway.. Just the £100m wasted in my South Wales area by the MOD on the aircraft place which is being abandoned before its even built equites to what HM governement collects in 6 years from marine fuel tax. yet there are still those brain washed souls amongst us who seem to assume that taxes are natural and that everything should be taxed so that all is fair ..... rant over ... I feel better now /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[duncan]

now now - lets stay on track Paul.

personally I think Victor's post was a good example of a balanced response in the context of this thread.


attacking him in this way in this thread is ridiculous.

with only 1 exception what he says agree with you

1. it would impact the industry
2. if it was part of harmonisation of all fuel duty across the EU it would be more understandable

'recover' can mean different things to different people so he may not even be disagreeing with you there - god forbid that anyone would.

now more importantly when are you getting the boat to Poole? Saw what I took to be the Sunseeker LIBS boats passing the Needles early afternoon Sunday and it reminded me you are heading our way soon...........

 

[hobiecat]

You maybe right that the marine industry may never recover to its former size though there are a lot of new marinas being built in N England and Ireland is going well I believe. I moved into to a niche market after selling big Moodys (maybe right decision?). Market will adjust to higher fuel prices but I think the overall uncertainty is very damaging.

If my instinct for fairness with fuel being taxed in harmony across Europe cannot be applied, I guess I am for keeping red diesel - we may as well have any advantages going over our European friends. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif