Boat Brokers the Good The Bad and The Ugly

[Dukester52]

To be fair, a surveyor would most likely not pick up on faults with the engine. In my experience they won't start the engine for fear of causing damage. As you mentioned you'd need a sea trial for that, usually with the seller demonstrating, and I'm not sure you'd expect a newbie to know that. I would expect the broker to explain the process, including a sea trial, though.

 

[Irish Rover]

On one level it’s encouraging to see so many posters recounting satisfactory experiences with brokers but it may just be disguising the real situation. Most sales are straightforward and even the incompetent I dealt with in Lefkas would have difficulty messing them up. The question is how good is the broker when there are complications and it seems to me not many come up to the mark. They bluff and cajole buyers by making positive noises while at the same time being careful not to say anything that would tie them later. If challenged they try to hide behind small print and disclaimers. A previous poster said they’re the estate agents of the sea or something like that - I’d say they’re the three card tricksters of the maritime world.

 

[Glenlivet]

I hope that the lessons you have learned include reading the material that is available. You seem to have constructed your own view as to the role of the broker which is at odds with what it actually is and then criticise him for not acting to your preconceived idea.

All his paperwork will tell you he is acting for the seller and the particulars he provides are also provided by the seller and that it is up to the buyer to satisfy himself that the claims are correct.

Of course good brokers make checks as to the veracity of the claims made by the seller and that the seller has title to sell. If the seller is making claims about regular servicing then it is sensible to ask for documentary proof before making an offer.

However, dare I say it, your key mistake was not employing a surveyor, particularly as you say you know nothing about boats. Your surveyor is liable to you and if he had found the faults as is most likely with an inspection and sea trial you would have had the opportunity to renegotiate the price to reflect the repairs required or even reject the boat and get your deposit back.

It is not the system that has failed it is your failure to follow it.

Also worth pointing out using an independent surveyor with no connection to the broker. I made the mistake back in the 90s of using a surveyor introduced by the broker, led to some problems further down the line.

 

[GB1307]

Again, quite amusing.
Talk about preconceived ideas...

If you had read the thread, then you will have noted that the seller failed to turn up to a river trial, not once, but twice.
Then sent the keys, but did not send the keys for the engines, until weeks after i had transferred the money.
I did not sign a bill of sale, yet the broker quickly transferred the title into our name.
We were then blocked from gaining access to the boat, as the previous owner had some issue with the marina.
Once i finally got a company to provide an assessment of the boat, the full horror of the deception became clear.

Am i to blame for having some faith in the integrity of the seller and professionalism of the broker, yes, guilty as charged.
Was i lied to and cheated, yes, equally true.
Did i ask the broker to confirm that he believed that the engines were in good mechanical order and well maintained as described, yes i did, and yes, he confirmed the same in an email.
As you said, good brokers will do checks, so this one did no checks and perpetuated the deceit.

Do i think that the broker was in collusion with the lying piece of slime that is the seller, then no i do not.
However, in your words good brokers do checks.

Many Thanks

 

[Blue Sunray]

Again, quite amusing.
Talk about preconceived ideas...

If you had read the thread, then you will have noted that the seller failed to turn up to a river trial, not once, but twice.
Then sent the keys, but did not send the keys for the engines, until weeks after i had transferred the money.
I did not sign a bill of sale, yet the broker quickly transferred the title into our name.
We were then blocked from gaining access to the boat, as the previous owner had some issue with the marina.
Once i finally got a company to provide an assessment of the boat, the full horror of the deception became clear.

Am i to blame for having some faith in the integrity of the seller and professionalism of the broker, yes, guilty as charged.
Was i lied to and cheated, yes, equally true.
Did i ask the broker to confirm that he believed that the engines were in good mechanical order and well maintained as described, yes i did, and yes, he confirmed the same in an email.
As you said, good brokers will do checks, so this one did no checks and perpetuated the deceit.

Do i think that the broker was in collusion with the lying piece of slime that is the seller, then no i do not.
However, in your words good brokers do checks.

Many Thanks

Boatshed seem quite clear on the process that they recommend you follow. I'd suggest that a prudent buyer would have at least read and acted on the "Buying a boat" section on their website. A fool and his money... might not be particularly kind but appears to be apt.

We recommend that you use a professional surveyor with the appropriate Professional Indemnity insurance. All costs for surveys and lift outs are down to you. Our brokers are not allowed to recommend surveyors but they will be able to provide you with a list of local surveyors if you don’t know any close to the boat.

Our broker will be informed of when the survey is taking place and will try to be there to meet the surveyor; this gives them a very good and early indication of any problems if they are found and how severe they are. This is vital as they will have to undertake any negotiations between buyer and seller if anything is highlighted in the survey.

The majority of our surveys are plain sailing and any problems the surveyor finds are often known to the broker who will have forewarned the purchaser already and ensured that the offer price included an offset for any work required. Our brokers will be able to provide details of local companies who can quote for any work needed following the survey to enable a fair price reduction to be agreed.

Obviously if the survey, or any other trials or checks reveal material problems then you can choose not to proceed and we will refund you deposit in full. However it’s far more usual for our brokers to enter into negotiations on your behalf with the owner to secure a price reduction.

 

[GB1307]

Was i a fool to use Boatshed, yes.
Was i a fool to trust Boatshed, yes.
Was I a fool to believe Boatshed, yes.
Ok, i accept your insult, i was very foolish.

 

[jac]

Again, quite amusing.
Talk about preconceived ideas...

If you had read the thread, then you will have noted that the seller failed to turn up to a river trial, not once, but twice.
Then sent the keys, but did not send the keys for the engines, until weeks after i had transferred the money.
I did not sign a bill of sale, yet the broker quickly transferred the title into our name.
We were then blocked from gaining access to the boat, as the previous owner had some issue with the marina.
Once i finally got a company to provide an assessment of the boat, the full horror of the deception became clear.

Am i to blame for having some faith in the integrity of the seller and professionalism of the broker, yes, guilty as charged.
Was i lied to and cheated, yes, equally true.
Did i ask the broker to confirm that he believed that the engines were in good mechanical order and well maintained as described, yes i did, and yes, he confirmed the same in an email.
As you said, good brokers will do checks, so this one did no checks and perpetuated the deceit.

Do i think that the broker was in collusion with the lying piece of slime that is the seller, then no i do not.
However, in your words good brokers do checks.

Many Thanks

OK - but how did a sea trial go ahead without keys etc?

Answer - it didn't because you didn't get a surveyor who would no doubt have strongly suggested a sea trial.

As for asking if the engines were ok - They may well have been when the boat was last used. They may have been regularly serviced as well. That doesn't mean anything if she has then sat there deteriorating for 2-3 years. Bits rust or perish due to age, UV, salt, moisture.

IT's natural to lash out and blame someone else for your mistakes but every time you try to smear the broker you make yourself look like a bigger fool.

The seller - didn't turn up - Hardly the brokers fault.
If you didn't follow the process and agree price subject to sea trial and survey that's not the brokers fault.
No signing of the bill of sale might be an issue- i'll give you that.
NO access as the boat possibly owed some money to the marina. Not the brokers fault. They can only check for mortgages etc so if nothing registered then not them but the owner.

You've had a bad experience here I grant you but your issue is with the seller, not the broker

 

[Praxinoscope]

I’m sorry GB1307, I agree with ‘jac’ and the others who point out that you are aiming at the wrong target by omplaining about Boatshed in this instance, not to cimmision a survey on a boat you have no experience of, especially when you admit to having little experience with boats would seem to me to be foolhardy.
Then not to have your suspicions aroused when the seller fails to turn up for arranged sea trials and does not provide the keys to the engine, surely this alone should start the alarm bells ringing.
Boatsheds part in this is the same as that of an estate agent, acting as a conduit beyween you and the seller, they are not selling the boat, but providing a contact service which they have done.
I would suggest that you just have to accept that in this case you made several fundemental errors in the process of purchasing a second-hand item and unless you can take some form of legal action against the seller/previous owner you have a boat which you now own and which is going to cost you a fair amount to bring up to standard.

 

[GB1307]

No sea trial, the seller did not turn up twice and we only got the keys much later, after a family member went to the sellers house to get the engine keys.

The boat was towed from the mooring by someone recommended by Boatshed and then abandoned with the keys in it, outside a marina, where we arranged a mooring. It was only at this point that the truth was reveled and we found that the advert was a complete lie and was a huge deception, clearly aimed at defrauding us, the buyer.

I was shown a video of the boat on a sea trial, and the engines seemed to be running, however i cannot confirm when that was.

I told the broker that i was a newbie and had no idea about buying and boat and needed his trust and integrity. If i was going wrong at any point, i would have hoped professional integrity, or at least common decency would have prevailed. Alas it did not and i was ripped off.
If you have followed the thread, i do not believe that the broker was in collusion with the seller, however i would certainly question a basic duty of care.
I have also admitted that i was foolish to believe anyone in this whole sorry saga, that includes the seller and the broker. As again if you followed the thread, i asked the broker directly if he believed that the engines were well maintained and mechanically sound as advertised. He confirmed that he did believe that this was accurate, he did not say that he had no idea or indeed did not know, and had never checked or seen or heard the engines. So its a sales mans yes, that is covered by a lot of small print. However he had the option to say anything at this point, but chose not to.

Well maintained and regularly serviced, in my book, does not mean its been left standing for 2 or 3 years as you have suggested, however i am quickly learning that in the augmented reality of buying a boat, you may actually believe this to be a reasonable representation of the facts.

i am very glad to be given such detailed information about the practices of brokers and the ways of hiding behind legal loopholes, when questioned. It is odd that boat brokers are still avoiding the trade descriptions act, consumer rights, sale of goods act, etc, etc. So many industries have much tighter legislation these days, which is why i have involved trading standards. Its very good for so many newbies like me to hear and learn from this and your comments that appear to seek to blame anyone for buying a boat in the first place. The old adage is true, buyer beware, even if you have a broker, you have no safety and no comfort and absolutely no security. The good thing is that the more this goes viral, the less likely that it will happen to anyone else.

I have broad shoulders and can accept my mistakes, you will note from the thread that i have done so several times. However if you are supporting behavior where a seller lies, cheats and misleads, and this is perpetuated by the broker, who has not bothered to check anything, yet confirms in an email that the engines are as described. Then i would always believe in honour and integrity over this shallow and greed driven behavior, and we shall always disagree my friend.

Thank you for your comments, GB

 

[jac]

Sorry of we're coming across as harsh and there may be facts that you have not made clear to us which change the position.

But realistically I think you're on a hiding to nothing here.

I would suspect that a broker would usually follow the YBDSA code of practice. It may not chime with your own thoughts on how the industry should run but that's life. If they followed an industry code of practice then i would think no trading standards department will do anything.

TO pick up your 2-3 years issues if I may with an example.

Assuming that the boat was say 10 years old - the engine may have been serviced every year professionally whilst it was in use. The broker may have seen documents showing a service charge from a reputable main dealer. To me that would meet the definition of well maintained and serviced.

You have not stated anywhere that you asked if it had been recently serviced.

That is a big difference.

The brokers guide in writing says get a surveyor.
The RYA say get a surveyor.
all the magazines ( well this site) say get a surveyor.
You didn't.

It's your life to waste and if you want to fritter your time on chasing some hopeless quest to prove that you didn't act like a total cockwomble then that's your prerogative.

My advice would be to hold you hands up, chalk it up to experience and move on.

 

[Tranona]

Again, quite amusing.
Talk about preconceived ideas...

If you had read the thread, then you will have noted that the seller failed to turn up to a river trial, not once, but twice.
Then sent the keys, but did not send the keys for the engines, until weeks after i had transferred the money.
I did not sign a bill of sale, yet the broker quickly transferred the title into our name.
We were then blocked from gaining access to the boat, as the previous owner had some issue with the marina.
Once i finally got a company to provide an assessment of the boat, the full horror of the deception became clear.

Am i to blame for having some faith in the integrity of the seller and professionalism of the broker, yes, guilty as charged.
Was i lied to and cheated, yes, equally true.
Did i ask the broker to confirm that he believed that the engines were in good mechanical order and well maintained as described, yes i did, and yes, he confirmed the same in an email.
As you said, good brokers will do checks, so this one did no checks and perpetuated the deceit.

Do i think that the broker was in collusion with the lying piece of slime that is the seller, then no i do not.
However, in your words good brokers do checks.

Many Thanks

As I suggested right at the beginning, there is more to this story than you are telling. You have once again added new information that changes things significantly. When responding to your posts I, and others can only respond to what you are saying, even though I know there is more to this than you are telling - if only because what you are saying is non-normal.

Some of the things you claim happen should not happen, BUT we have only heard your side of the story and there are ALWAYS at least two sides, which are often in conflict.

If you believe the broker has acted unprofessionally the first thing is to check whether he is a member of either BMF or ABYA. Both these organisations have codes of conduct and complaints procedures and if necessary will facilitate arbitration.

While it is useful to air your issues here as the feedback can be useful, but it actually achieves nothing in respect of resolving your issue. You can only progress this by making yourself aware of the context of the issue, prepare your case fully and take it up with the appropriate body - which may eventually be a court IF there is evidence of law breaking and the sums involved justify the costs and effort.

 

[Irish Rover]

As I suggested right at the beginning, there is more to this story than you are telling. You have once again added new information that changes things significantly. When responding to your posts I, and others can only respond to what you are saying, even though I know there is more to this than you are telling - if only because what you are saying is non-normal.

Some of the things you claim happen should not happen, BUT we have only heard your side of the story and there are ALWAYS at least two sides, which are often in conflict.

If you believe the broker has acted unprofessionally the first thing is to check whether he is a member of either BMF or ABYA. Both these organisations have codes of conduct and complaints procedures and if necessary will facilitate arbitration.

While it is useful to air your issues here as the feedback can be useful, but it actually achieves nothing in respect of resolving your issue. You can only progress this by making yourself aware of the context of the issue, prepare your case fully and take it up with the appropriate body - which may eventually be a court IF there is evidence of law breaking and the sums involved justify the costs and effort.

The OP has done us all a great service by highlighting his experience. Buyer beware and many reading this thread will be better informed and more wary. Thanks to the OP and I hope you get a satisfactory resolution.

 

[GB1307]

Hello Praxinoscope,
I live in Moscow, so its not as simple as you describe.
If i lived within driving distance, i would have dealt with this differently, which is why i relied on the broker.
So, you have supported what several others have said, you cannot trust anything that a broker says, as he/she is just a middle person, perpetuating any possible deception of the seller. However several people have also said that the good brokers do checks, unfortunately Boatshed did not, so it says everything about Boatshed.
In addition, i should have commissioned a survey, however several people on here have posted saying that they have also been misled by the survey report, or that the surveyor was somehow linked to the broker or seller. So this also is no guarantee that you will not be cheated. However throwing yet more money at it, my just reduce your exposure from greed and deception.
One of the best responses, advised that its all down to the person involved and assessing if you can trust them or not. Clearly by what occurred, i did not feel that i could trust the seller, yet the guy from Boatshed seemed trustworthy. So i hedged my bets and believed him when he said that the seller was accurately describing the boat.
So, it turns out that i could not trust either of them, which is a sad indictment of the whole boat buying sector.
Yes, i have gone legal and yes, i have involved trading standards and yes i have officially complained to British Marine as i believe that Boatshed have broken their code of practice.
I am now trying to highlight this issue as much as possible for newbies considering buying a boat, as i dont want anyone else to go through what i have gone through. its not specifically about the money, its about putting proper safeguards in place, so that more people are not ripped off.
Next thing is an advisory web site and a helpline.
However, thank you for your input, most helpful.

 

[GB1307]

Thank you for your kind and helpful words Tranona.
GB

 

[Allan]

Perhaps I can add a couple of things.
I service my engines, present and past, myself. I do it based on the manufacturers recommendations, which are in engine hours. I've even fitted engine hour meters. If, for some reason, I stopped sailing for 2 years I would not service them but they would still be serviced as recommend.
i find it interesting that in the Boatshed post quoted above, they say:
"Obviously if the survey, or any other trials or checks reveal material problems then you can choose not to proceed and we will refund you deposit in full. However it’s far more usual for our brokers to enter into negotiations on your behalf with the owner to secure a price reduction."
If I were a seller and paying a broker, I would expect them to be negotiating on my behalf!
Along with a lot of other people I've had problems with one particular Boatshed broker but I've always tried to not let him affect my view of Boatshed in general.
Allan

 

[GB1307]

Hello Allan,
Thank you for your feedback and knowledge, which clearly comes with significant experience.
I agree and have mentioned several times that Boatshed is a franchise operation and they seem to be only as good as the quality of the person running that particular franchise.
If the person running one chooses greed over integrity in order to make a fast buck, then at some point they will meet someone who will refuse to accept this.
I am sure that many Boatshed's are good and honorable operations, ran by people with experience, self respect, dignity and integrity. My experience was far different.
It seems as though the majority of experienced boat people will not use a broker to buy a boat, and prefer to do a private deal directly, yet more will use a broker to sell a boat.
More than a third of people on here and on other sites where i have posted this message about my poor experience with Boatshed, are disgruntled with Brokers, in general, not just Boatshed, it is fair to say.
20% have serious tales of woe, just like me, where they lost serious money, were misled and or completely ripped off.
A few were also mislead by the surveyor, who had links to the owner or broker.
In general, i have received some great advice and support and direction.
Mostly the old school people seem to believe that its perfectly acceptable behavior for a seller to misrepresent a boat, lie in the advert and set out to defraud the buyer, with the support of the broker (knowing or not knowing). They seem to believe that its up to the buyer to uncover the fraud, or accept the blame if they are eventually ripped off, by more experienced people who then try to absolve themselves of responsibility via small print.
I am pleased to say that i have never ripped anyone off, and i have no experience of this, however having lived in 8 countries and worked in 35 different countries, trust me when i tell you that i am not naive to the ways of the world.
The reality is that the world has changed and such behavior is no longer acceptable, with most industries the onus is on the seller not to rip off a buyer. The boat world now, seems to me to be like the second hand car market in the 70"s. Its not acceptable and fraud, mis selling, false advertising and perpetuating such behavior makes people guilty by association.
I will continue to write to the governing associations, British Marine, Trading Standards and will keep posting this across all social media until change happens.
Many Thanks,
GB

 

[Seajet]

Great Post, GB ! :encouragement:

 

[langstonelayabout]

I must say, I'm astonished at what brokers think is acceptable practice for buying a boat in the 21st century. I saw a Fairline advertised by Boatshed France. It was of an age where the engines and outdrives constitute around 60-70% of the value. I went over to have a look at the boat and was told that on no account would the keys be provided, engines started or even any superficial examination of the outdrives be permitted until I coughed up 10% and made a contractual offer. Without any examination of the most significant part of the boat's value, I told them I had nothing like enough information on which to base an offer. They wouldn't budge, so I walked. Goodbye Boatshed from me.

Well done.

Unless the engine is a professionally fitted new (or almost new) one I couldn't bring myself to buy a boat without hearing the engine run (properly).

With an owner or agent withholding the right to start the engine I too would walk. I would see that as they were trying to conceal something like an engine defect. I wouldn't buy a car without hearing run either, unless it was new and had a dealer warranty.

Can anyone here place their hand on their hearts and say they are happy to make an offer and pay a deposit for a boat prior to starting the engine?

 

[ashtead]

GB sadly the regulation of marine brokers is not an area which will attract much political attention and while others have been compared them to estate agents there is I suspect considerably less recourse to ombudsman in event of complaint.
Will be interesting to hear what response you gain from their trade bodies to your concerns however as others have said your recourse if any lies with the seller who might of course be a man of straw even if some liability exists by him for any representations made.
Generally when selling I have found brokers I have instructed to be helpful and to have provided useful advice in dealing with purchasers who can often be timewasters etc. A lot of this though is based on the individual broker you instruct and it's expertise in the type of vessel. if a broker has a bad reputation with sellers I suspect it soon becomes well known to potential sellers who clearly want to trade their pride and joy and so would not be attracted to use what might be regarded as a spivvy broker . You can of course tell a lot by looking at the quality of the broker descriptions and photos as to knowledge of a selling broker which might be a useful indicator but ultimately some purchasers might be just looking for a bargain and ignore such factors.

 

[superheat6k]

Was i a fool to use Boatshed, yes.
Was i a fool to trust Boatshed, yes.
Was I a fool to believe Boatshed, yes.
Ok, i accept your insult, i was very foolish.

How has Elecglitch insulted you ?

You openly state you did not have all you needed, i.e. the keys, yet you parted with your money !

Not sure I would buy a secondhand car and pay the money without the keys being dangled in front of me. In many ways buying a boat is not so different.

However, I can understand how your naivety led you to misunderstand the process, and possibly a case of rose tinted specs. but I stick by my view the Broker was simply doing the task for which he has been employed by the vendor, and also that the Broker has provided adequate guidance on the normal buying process.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

In my prior reply I did ask whether you actually viewed the boat yourself. Please tell me you did, to at least restore some level of respect for you simply as a naive buyer.