boat brands - prejudice or reality

[johnalison]

The original OP was talking about 34' although that focus has long gone. The last boat used to illustrate a discussion point was a Jeanneau 40i which has twin rudders and chines. There is not an absolute size determinant of when a thruster becomes useful. It all depends on the type of boat and the difficulties it presents that might be lessened by a bow or stern thruster or both. For example there is a Southerly 32 in our club which as you may know is very shallow and has huge topsides so despite being heavy at 7 tonnes it is uncontrollable without its thrusters. My current boat is 31' heavy long keel, last boat was modern 33' single rudder, immediate neighbours in the marina are a Freedom 33 drop keel, Southerly 110, drop keel twin rudders and Malo 36 conventional long fin keel. All have bow thrusters so that the owners (age range 76-88) can enter and exit their berths safely.

You may feel mortified, but why? It is simply not logical. If a bow thruster makes life easier for you and enables you to use your boat more and carry out arguably the worst bit of boat handling better dhy should you feel bad about or be bothered about what others think?

I’m afraid that I am something of a purist in this regard, and I tend to think that designers should design boats fit for their purpose, and that owners should be using skills rather than short cuts. It’s a bit as if we all had self-parking cars and that there was no one left who could parallel park.

 

[Tranona]

Here is a little honesty test:

1) Give a few paragraphs on the advantages of a long keel, skeg hung rudder, low windage hull configuration
Marks will be given for the number of advantages you can think of and a short elaboration of each one, you should be able to identify about ten

If you can't or won't answer let us know.

.

As I own a boat like that (except that the rudder is keel hung) so I know the characteristics. To list "advantages" means a comparison so you need something to compare it with and that is a pointless exercise in the abstract.

The test of a boat is whether it is suitable to meet the owner's expectations. It is a personal choice and all the so called advantages which are actually characteristics you claim for old boats can be met by different designs. If you really want to go through such a pointless exercise then you have to list the pros and cons of different designs, not just cherry pick.

For example what you see as advantages - long keel, skeg hung rudder low freeboard I would see as negative. Long keel equals high wetted surface area, poor manoeuvrability, slow; skeg hung rudder lack of balance area leading to high steering loads when pressed; low freeboard hull, lack of space below, probably wet. Exactly the reasons why boats like that have not been built in any numbers for over 30 years. Their characteristics do not meet buyers' expectations.

Why do you think I or anybody else should be able to list 10 so called advantages? Is there a prize or is this some sort of test of whether you are "proper" in some way or other?

Maybe this will help you understand better. I have owned 4 cruising boats over the last 45 years - two that approximate to the type that you see as advantageous and 2 of the very opposite - modern fin keel spade rudder etc. I have cruised them extensively in all sorts of conditions in coastal and near offshore so feel pretty confident that I can assess the pros and cons. Far and away the best one for cruising from where I am - English channel and western approaches was the Bavaria 33. Beautifully built, robust, light and easy to sail, fast, comfortable and good accommodation and storage. Why did I sell it and buy a Golden Hind? Simple 2 reasons. First nostalgia and second a wish to do one last big project restoring a boat given that age and circumstances mean my cruising opportunities are limited. Remember though this is a boat that in the 1970s was a boat of choice for ocean sailing with over 35 recorded transatlantic passages and many going further. Compared with the Bavaria as an everyday cruising boat though it is rubbish. Slow, cramped, cumbersome, hard work, high maintenance. Nice ambience in the cabin though so good when moored somewhere like Shipstal Point in Poole harbour for the night. Glass of Islay single malt is a bonus.

You might say my kind of sailing is not the same as "bluewater" (although it did include across the Med in my 37), but if I had been able to do that I would not have chosen an old style boat - too many downsides plus by 2000 when I might have been able to do it many were getting old and for the same money or less one could get a new boat like a Bavaria Ocean 40. Fast forward to today the choice is different as there is an enormous range of capable boats, mostly built in the last 20 years from which to choose so no need to go back into the past unless you have rose tinted spectacles.

There is your honesty.

 

[John_Silver]

Here is a little honesty test:

1) Give a few paragraphs on the advantages of a long keel, skeg hung rudder, low windage hull configuration
Marks will be given for the number of advantages you can think of and a short elaboration of each one, you should be able to identify about ten

If you can't or won't answer let us know.

.

A real light bulb moment, for me, with regard to “seaworthy” hull design, was the first McIntyre GGR. Where the casualty rate of the (mainly) Rustler 36 fleet was high. Previously I had regarded them as the epitome of moderate sized ocean capability.Long keels, rudder on keel, low windage etc etc

I am following the progress of a fleet of Class40’s in the Globe40 rtw race. The scow bow boats have just completed the Pacific leg (having started from Les Sables in the summer). The sharp bowed boats are about to arrive in Valparaiso. The Class40’s being designed very much in the modern idiom. Chines, beam carried aft, twin spade rudders, light & cored (but calculated) scantlings, fin keels. Some scow bowed. All designed to plane.

So far the casualty count has been restricted to spreader damage, in the South Atlantic x1. And a double hit of a UFO followed by lightning strike x1. Both boats able to sail to port, make repairs and resume.

Gives pause for thought….

Looking forward to the Cape Horn / S Atlantic leg. Starts Feb 18th

 

[Tranona]

I’m afraid that I am something of a purist in this regard, and I tend to think that designers should design boats fit for their purpose, and that owners should be using skills rather than short cuts. It’s a bit as if we all had self-parking cars and that there was no one left who could parallel park.

But that is exactly what they have done - why on earth do you think they are "short cuts". The boats are fit for purpose - they do the job the owners bought them for.

 

[doug748]

Here we go again ………
A modern HR with twin rudders will be very directionally stable, and with modern sail handling systems (probably including at least one electric assisted winch and a bow thruster) a doddle to singlehand.

Here is someone else who is no doubt wrong:

Don't confuse the ability to steer straight, light helm or responsiveness with fundamental directional stability. Sirius Yachts supply a range of keels, this is what they say about their longer chord choice:

"........ While this (greater length fore and aft ) gives the boat better directional stability, it does make her a little less responsive and a little slower to manoeuvre."

.

 

[doug748]

.......Why do you think I or anybody else should be able to list 10 so called advantages? Is there a prize or is this some sort of test of whether you are "proper" in some way or other?.......

No prize but it might help to sort out if your arguments are of a fool or a knave.

PS

Can anyone else not pick out the advantages and disadvantages of differing designs? Really.

.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Here is a little honesty test:

1) Give a few paragraphs on the advantages of a long keel, skeg hung rudder, low windage hull configuration
Marks will be given for the number of advantages you can think of and a short elaboration of each one, you should be able to identify about ten

If you can't or won't answer let us know.

.

Long keel was the shape that was possible to build in the material available til the advent of GRP. Even then, GRP was so new and untried that evolution, not revolution, was called for. Computer design was unknown, boats were still driven by rating rules, always have been. Modern materials and computer predicted performance has finally upended the design wardrobe. Old skeletons can be seen for what they are, fossils, relics of a byegone era. Sometimes beautiful museum pieces. I race one. It’s cramped, wet, not the slightest bit ergonomic, slow and expensive. I do it because there are a lot of top sailors to race against. The average age of the skippers is about 70, but a decent percentage have an olympic medal, an admirals cup. World champions, a dozen or so. 3 of the skippers are ex Ultra 30 skippers. Boats are pretty, but to be frank, bloody awful. The competition is great, the prestige of a win massive. There really is no advantage in that kind of boat. We should all be in RSs, or Melges or something. Instead, we play games in the slowest boats in Cowes week, using every trick in the book to make ground against the tide.
Modern boats are designed to sail well, to have room on board, to have elements of luxury befitting their price tags. Old boats are for old men with hair shirts in the main. Some honourable exceptions, but none will actually keep up with a similar LOA modern design no matter what their owners think. The handicap book agrees with me. I thought they were wonderful til I did a winter season on a Contessa 32. Then the awful truth dawned on me. Just like the X, they are chocolate box pretty, but wet, slow, hard to sail, and physically draining. I have no use for a boat I only want to look at.

 

[Tranona]

No prize but it might help to sort out if your arguments are of a fool or a knave.

PS

Can anyone else not pick out the advantages and disadvantages of differing designs? Really.

.

But you only asked for advantages and as I pointed out what some see as advantages others see as disadvantages. They are not absolutes there are only characteristics. If the ten characteristics you are searching for are indeed absolute advantages nobody would buy anything different. It is clear that they are not because nobody makes boats with those characteristics anymore and the vast majority of boats in use don't have them. Despite that most people seem to get along just fine.

PS you don't seem to have had many takers for your quiz. Early days but bet that won't change as it is a flawed exercise.

 

[jonic]

A fascinating thread. I can't add much, only the brands I have owned and a final top three. I have sailed Solent based, Atlantic crossing, extended bluewater and inland waterways of USA and France. My choices may be surprising and are based on ultimately how did the boats make me feel. There will be some nostalgic bias related to what I actually did with them too.

I have been very lucky to have owned the following over the last 26 years (in order of ownership)

• Legend 26
• Beneteau 311 Clipper
• Westerly Corsair cc
• Moody 38 cc (Bill Dixon)
• Jeanneau 37
• Contest 36s (winged keel)
• Ovni 395
• Moody 46

Favourites in order are:

1. Contest 36s
2. Moody 38
3. Westerly Corsair

The Ovni was very close.

We now have an as yet un-sailed (by us) Sparkman and Stephens Sagitta 35. It will be interesting to see where she fits in the hierarchy. She is already my favourite in terms of looks.

 

[michael_w]

What I think is more important is not directional stability, but the readiness to return to the course chosen after being pushed off-course by waves, gusts etc.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

What I think is more important is not directional stability, but the readiness to return to the course chosen after being pushed off-course by waves, gusts etc.

That is pretty much the definition of dynamic stability which when people talk about directional stability is what they mean.

 

[Concerto]

Long keel was the shape that was possible to build in the material available til the advent of GRP. Even then, GRP was so new and untried that evolution, not revolution, was called for. Computer design was unknown, boats were still driven by rating rules, always have been. Modern materials and computer predicted performance has finally upended the design wardrobe. Old skeletons can be seen for what they are, fossils, relics of a byegone era. Sometimes beautiful museum pieces. I race one. It’s cramped, wet, not the slightest bit ergonomic, slow and expensive. I do it because there are a lot of top sailors to race against. The average age of the skippers is about 70, but a decent percentage have an olympic medal, an admirals cup. World champions, a dozen or so. 3 of the skippers are ex Ultra 30 skippers. Boats are pretty, but to be frank, bloody awful. The competition is great, the prestige of a win massive. There really is no advantage in that kind of boat. We should all be in RSs, or Melges or something. Instead, we play games in the slowest boats in Cowes week, using every trick in the book to make ground against the tide.
Modern boats are designed to sail well, to have room on board, to have elements of luxury befitting their price tags. Old boats are for old men with hair shirts in the main. Some honourable exceptions, but none will actually keep up with a similar LOA modern design no matter what their owners think. The handicap book agrees with me. I thought they were wonderful til I did a winter season on a Contessa 32. Then the awful truth dawned on me. Just like the X, they are chocolate box pretty, but wet, slow, hard to sail, and physically draining. I have no use for a boat I only want to look at.

Sailing an old slow boat well is very skilled and then add in the problems of tactical challenges of tides and shallow waters, the racing becomes a competition for the best sailors. The latest America's Cup boats are technical to sail but I appreciated the slow old 12 metre boats.

In the past I can remember racing in flat calm conditions, we found any movement on the boat slowed us down, so we hardly moved around and kept a heel on to keep the sails in shape using the heel. Concentration was extreme to capture every zephyr. Other boats you could see rocking as the crew moved, besides breaking out the beers.

One final point about a skeg in front of the rudder. When my parents bought a new Nicholson 30, she was an early boat with a skeg half the depth of the transom hung rudder. The boat was too directionally stable, making off wind sailing in heavy airs extremely difficult. Later boats were built without a skeg, so we altered ours by removing the skeg and building a new rudder. The difference in handling was remarkable. When we put her on the plane, instead of having 2 or 3 on the helm, we only needed one person. The ability to quickly alter course was like a magic touch. I doubt if many sailors have every experienced the same boat with such a small radical change making such a difference.

 

[potentillaCO32]

I think my big fear would be sailing on these ugly multi hulls. Especially after 3 of them got blown over in October in the transat.

 

[doug748]

But you only asked for advantages and as I pointed out what some see as advantages others see as disadvantages.

Not exactly my point, but near

It's taken a quarter of a century to cut through your double speak, so lets not talk again about better boats. Boats are made and designed for a purpose, they may be good at that and less good at others.

The disadvantages and advantages are often real, the subjective comes in the weighing of them.

.

 

[doug748]

PS you don't seem to have had many takers for your quiz. Early days but bet that won't change as it is a flawed exercise.

Read it again.

I did not ask for takers, I asked if anyone else would struggle to list advantages and disadvantages of differing designs.

It seems to be a question that baffles only you.

.

 

[benjenbav]

Nearly 200 posts in to a question as to whether it’s worth paying 2x for a badge on a 25 y/o yacht and much erudite explanation of various design developments; the answer is…

It depends.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... Modern boats are designed to sail well, to have room on board, to have elements of luxury befitting their price tags. Old boats are for old men ...

I am pretty sure that designers of these old boats tried to achieve the same characteristics as you think apply only to new designs. A read of the many 1970's, '80's boat reviews will demonstrate that speed, ability to sail well, room and luxury were often commented on favourably or unfavourably. I regularly see old boats with young families on them at my marina as they enjoy the west coast of Scotland.

I agree with others who state that comparisons with new and old are pointless, as the designs have significantly changed over the years. For example, my 41' yacht from the 70's sat alongside a current 41' yacht looks tiny, compare it to a 45' current yacht and it is minuscule such are the hull volume changes in yacht design. As for the rig changes, my mast head rig is significantly smaller and looks like a dinghy compared to their slender, multi spreader, swept back fractional rigs.

I have two heads, two showers, a double fore cabin, and double aft cabin, a saloon that seats 8 comfortably, a large 4 burner cooker with over and grill. pressurised hot and cold water, a hot air heating system and excellent storage, large galley, large chart table area, now repurposed and superior table top and storage than any modern design on the same size of boat. My cockpit is much smaller than current yachts, comfortable with 6, better with 4, busy with 8. Boarding the dinghy I can easily step into it via 2 short and very secure boarding steps on the side. I don't have the same deck space as current yacht designs but it is wide enough that we can all sprawl out on the foredeck, saloon coach roof, aft cabin coach roof or even the side decks. In heavy weather, my deep fore foot, up swept bows, narrower entry provides for a very comfortable motion and handles steep seas very well. At 41' the boat is dry in the cockpit. It is not a fast boat and current boats will sail faster on all points of sailing, including current boats that are smaller LOA. I heal more than current boats, and can carry sail beyond reef time with ease but at silly angles of heal, reefing results in faster and more upright sailing. My rig is easy to handle, even with at mast controls. New Vectran sails power me along, my Harken furler makes Genoa reefing a piece of cake, slab reefing is a doddle at the mast, one man job, and safe with granny bars. In light winds I can use a ghoster (but need to drop the furling Genoa) or spinnaker to provide the power, I have an inner forestay and staysail. I have hit rocks, quite a lot of rocks, as I like to explore, my keel configuration is strong and while I have spent a small fortune on toe repairs, that has been it, no dismantling of the interior or grid bonding to worry about. My boat has modern navigation tools, and auto helms, as well as a Monitor Wind Vane (in storage as it is not needed for the sailing I do).

I sail, I don't motor about, I beat upwind, go out in strong winds, sail all year round, though much less in the winter. My old boat is comfortable, returns a satisfactory speed and cost me buttons compared to today's prices, even when I add up the refit costs. It is remarkably low cost to maintain even with original engine (Perkins 4236). I think this latter point is often overlooked, the cost of sailing can be very economical if the right old boat is bought, which is why I probably see young families sailing old boats. No doubt in 50 years time, the current boats will be sailed as low cost yachts by young families.

If I had the desire, I have the money, I would happily own a modern boat, at a second hand price, but I have grown into my boat, 15 years now, I enjoy sailing it, I know it inside out, the old has been replaced and a few upgrades have improved efficiency. So I am happy to stick with my choice, wear my modern, layered sailing clothing, hi tech water proofs, goretex boots and leave the hair shirt and Cilice for après-sailing.

Personally, I dislike this black and white argument, it is reflective of society today, where opinions are either, or, right or wrong. The reality is rarely that logical and both old and new design boats sail well, look after their crews and provide masses of enjoyment.

 

[benjenbav]

I am pretty sure that designers of these old boats tried to achieve the same characteristics as you think apply only to new designs. A read of the many 1970's, '80's boat reviews will demonstrate that speed, ability to sail well, room and luxury were often commented on favourably or unfavourably. I regularly see old boats with young families on them at my marina as they enjoy the west coast of Scotland.

I agree with others who state that comparisons with new and old are pointless, as the designs have significantly changed over the years. For example, my 41' yacht from the 70's sat alongside a current 41' yacht looks tiny, compare it to a 45' current yacht and it is minuscule such are the hull volume changes in yacht design. As for the rig changes, my mast head rig is significantly smaller and looks like a dinghy compared to their slender, multi spreader, swept back fractional rigs.

I have two heads, two showers, a double fore cabin, and double aft cabin, a saloon that seats 8 comfortably, a large 4 burner cooker with over and grill. pressurised hot and cold water, a hot air heating system and excellent storage, large galley, large chart table area, now repurposed and superior table top and storage than any modern design on the same size of boat. My cockpit is much smaller than current yachts, comfortable with 6, better with 4, busy with 8. Boarding the dinghy I can easily step into it via 2 short and very secure boarding steps on the side. I don't have the same deck space as current yacht designs but it is wide enough that we can all sprawl out on the foredeck, saloon coach roof, aft cabin coach roof or even the side decks. In heavy weather, my deep fore foot, up swept bows, narrower entry provides for a very comfortable motion and handles steep seas very well. At 41' the boat is dry in the cockpit. It is not a fast boat and current boats will sail faster on all points of sailing, including current boats that are smaller LOA. I heal more than current boats, and can carry sail beyond reef time with ease but at silly angles of heal, reefing results in faster and more upright sailing. My rig is easy to handle, even with at mast controls. New Vectran sails power me along, my Harken furler makes Genoa reefing a piece of cake, slab reefing is a doddle at the mast, one man job, and safe with granny bars. In light winds I can use a ghoster (but need to drop the furling Genoa) or spinnaker to provide the power, I have an inner forestay and staysail. I have hit rocks, quite a lot of rocks, as I like to explore, my keel configuration is strong and while I have spent a small fortune on toe repairs, that has been it, no dismantling of the interior or grid bonding to worry about. My boat has modern navigation tools, and auto helms, as well as a Monitor Wind Vane (in storage as it is not needed for the sailing I do).

I sail, I don't motor about, I beat upwind, go out in strong winds, sail all year round, though much less in the winter. My old boat is comfortable, returns a satisfactory speed and cost me buttons compared to today's prices, even when I add up the refit costs. It is remarkably low cost to maintain even with original engine (Perkins 4236). I think this latter point is often overlooked, the cost of sailing can be very economical if the right old boat is bought, which is why I probably see young families sailing old boats. No doubt in 50 years time, the current boats will be sailed as low cost yachts by young families.

If I had the desire, I have the money, I would happily own a modern boat, at a second hand price, but I have grown into my boat, 15 years now, I enjoy sailing it, I know it inside out, the old has been replaced and a few upgrades have improved efficiency. So I am happy to stick with my choice, wear my modern, layered sailing clothing, hi tech water proofs, goretex boots and leave the hair shirt and Cilice for après-sailing.

Personally, I dislike this black and white argument, it is reflective of society today, where opinions are either, or, right or wrong. The reality is rarely that logical and both old and new design boats sail well, look after their crews and provide masses of enjoyment.

I couldn’t argue with any of that but your last paragraph does touch on an issue that I find concerning; namely that this sort of forum used to be a place where folks would mostly add helpful perspectives from their own experience.

These days, it seems, many contributions are founded more in a desire to prove that the contributor is right, or more right than the next person.

 

[geem]

BENETEAU, JEANNEAU, DUFOUR, BAVARIA, HANSE: BUILDING AND DESIGN

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... last paragraph does touch on an issue that I find concerning ... it seems, many contributions are founded more in a desire to prove that the contributor is right, or more right than the next person.

I can be guilty of that. However, I recognise it and try and correct myself. Is it a symptom of old age grumpiness, or irritation grown by experience a life lived? Maybe folks have too much time on their hands, the devil makes work for idle hands, sort of thing. I don't know. My experience is that on a whole, this is a good forum filled with helpful advice.