boat brands - prejudice or reality

[Chiara’s slave]

Bob Fisher had a great story about IOR quarter tonner behaviour downwind. A 2 handed race, his co skipper was below, catching a few zees, the wind was in the high 20s with a big quartering sea. As we probably all know, those tiny transom boats were a total pig, so our Bob was sawing away on the tiller to try to keep it straight. All well and good til the tiller snapped off at the stock, the boat immediately broached. Pinned down pretty flat, the guy inside came to the hatch and said, ‘honestly Bob, can’t you steer straight?. Bob replied ‘Here, you try’ and handed him the tiller. I bet we’re all glad boat design evolves.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I’d love to see some of that, since it is utterly contrary to my own experience of racing contemporary designs against 1970s designs etc. I’ve shown you race results before, you know where sunfast 3300s beat well sailed 40 foot older designs to the fastnet rock in a heavy airs beat etc.

And, we're off to the apples & oranges again.
While I have done some ocean racing, including one race of over 3500 miles, I am only really interested in cruising performance, notably of the passage making variety.
When I refer to cruising, I mean living on board for extended periods of time and a boat equipped with all the necessary accoutrements, a dinghy & outboard, proper and redundant ground tackle, a cast iron crock pot, full tanks and a complete and intact tooth brush.
We can also, I guess, agree that we are now talking about displacement speeds, up to a relative speed of no more than 1.5, as spectacular as that in itself may be.
In this context, absolute speed potential is of less interest, rather than the ability to maintain reasonably high averages. The most important factor here is SA/D and DWL.

To put this into some realistic context:
While there is absolutely nothing about our tub that even remotely whispers speed, we quite consistently average 6.43 kn or thereabouts on multiday passages. We weigh in at a ridiculous 8.5t on a DWL of 28.25' (D/L 360) and have a SA/D of not quite 18.
While 6.43 kn may not sound like much, it should be noted that this represents 90% of the boat's nominal hull speed and, to be clear, a modern 40 footer would have to average (!) 8 kn to equal it. In light airs, though not to windward, we quite frequently keep up with or beat similar size "modern" designs. This is not a miracle, but simple physics.

To note: 0.9 (1.63, if you prefer metric) is considered to be the "indisputable" (I quote from a variety of sources) average, relative speed for sailing yachts.

When it comes to displacement speeds, not much has changed over the last hundred years. The physics have stayed the same and not all "older" designs had an artificially reduced speed potential, to make them "relatively fast" in the context of rating rules either.

Yes, "modern" designs are much lighter and this will allow them a much higher, ultimate speed potential, given enough wind that is. Many also have much higher SA/D ratios than some of the "older design" examples commonly quoted.
However, once loaded to the same extent, as I've outlined, and in a comparable relationship as to size, much of that advantage disappears. I think it rather disingenuous to insist on comparing, not only stripped out racers, but often considerably larger boats with one another and in complete disregard to the laws of relativity and similitude.

I am not surprised that you find your newer and beamier boat to be a lot stiffer and, consequently, faster. As I have previously pointed out: stability increases to the forth power of the beam and therefore even a small increase in beam makes a marked difference. Add to this a hull shape that moves volume and hence buoyancy to the beam ends and you end up with a considerably stiffer boat. After all, RM = GZ x G. Alas, as with all things, there are tradeoffs. The last time we were in Bas Sablons, I watched a local evening race, where a much narrower X-Yacht sailed circles around a larger, not to say beamier, Pogo in light conditions.

 

[mrming]

Watched the German video. The steering wheel set up on the long keeler looks ridiculous, plus it’s 40 feet and slower than the two smaller boats upwind. The Sun Odyessey 30i is doing fine in terms of speed - looks like it would be more comfortable with a reef. The HR is clearly the tool for that particular job though. The genoa gives it an SA/D of over 20, and her ballast/displacement ratio is 46. Lots of power to punch through those waves. Didn’t realise it had a fractional rig too. Nice boat!

 

[johnalison]

Watched the German video. The steering wheel set up on the long keeler looks ridiculous, plus it’s 40 feet and slower than the two smaller boats upwind. The Sun Odyessey 30i is doing fine in terms of speed - looks like it would be more comfortable with a reef. The HR is clearly the tool for that particular job though. The genoa gives it an SA/D of over 20, and her ballast/displacement ratio is 46. Lots of power to punch through those waves. Didn’t realise it had a fractional rig too. Nice boat!

The HR 29 is a fine boat of its type. I first encountered one when I had a Sadler 29 and was trying to make my way upwind in Danish waters, probably with a reef. An HR 29 creamed past us looking very comfortable, possibly helped by some smart-looking sails. A friend fancied one a few years ago but since he had a wife and a dog I steered him towards a HR 312, which suited them well.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

There’s a 29 on the pontoon with us. Very nice, well proportioned boat.

 

[barca nova]

I have confounded my own prejudices as mentioned at the start. Whilst looking at a Vancouver I was persuaded to get on board a Bav 34. What a shock! Internally the boat was immaculate but more to the point it had been built well, finished nicely and no way was it the IKEA finish that seems to be the case on every Benny I have been on. Entirely acceptable, even attractive.

Only issue was the ridiculous cockpit layout that had you clambering over the deck to get behind the wheel ( no wheel cut outs) and the two sheet winches were only accessible for the person behind the wheel.

Interesting tandem keel. Would have bought the boat but for the cockpit layout.

 

[dunedin]

…….

Only issue was the ridiculous cockpit layout that had you clambering over the deck to get behind the wheel ( no wheel cut outs) and the two sheet winches were only accessible for the person behind the wheel.
….

That’s one reason why most boats have now swapped over to twin wheels …… but that might just start another diversion

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That’s one reason why most boats have now swapped over to twin wheels …… but that might just start another diversion

That trend has nothing whatever to do with race boats. No Sir! However, now everyone has tried it, they realise why race boats started having twin wheels.

 

[barca nova]

Well I would stack David Thomas and all the other designers who use chines successfully against you any day of the week. We are not talking about old dinghies but substantial cruising boats where the designers have worked out that carefully positioned chines at the stern improve performance, reduce drag and increase buoyancy and allow more hull volume.

I suspect that both you and geem are right. Anything outside of a smooth semi circular hull will increase drag but there will be other benefits. For example increased stiffness might allow a bit more sail area and more speed that way. Certainly there will be a smidgeon more internal volume .

But never forget that design is not solely Bernoulli and fluid dynamics. There also is sales appeal and if the public believed there was a benefit to a hull with the surface finish of a golf ball, designers would provide it

 

[barca nova]

That’s one reason why most boats have now swapped over to twin wheels …… but that might just start another diversion

No. My previous Starlight had a big wheel and cutaways at the stern to allow it. This looked like the had designed the cockpit for a tiller than then jammed in a wheel

 

[barca nova]

I rather think there were - and are - more Ford owners would have prefered a Roller than Roller owners who'd prefer a Ford.

Though, OTOH

No way. Someone who had the taste to buy a Roller would undoubtedly have bought a Ferrari and not a Ford . Its about class which that Ford GT doesnt have.

 

[barca nova]

Back in the early 80s, it was Moody that was the butt of the "floating caravan" jokes. The demise of Angus Primrose on a Moody 33 only cemented that reputation, and it still persists with my father to this day. My dads generation who formed the "old boat fraternity" back then have simply passed the baton on to the next generation, repeating the behaviour of the past, with AWBs now the floating caravans instead of Moodys. So owners of old heavy, chopped mat clunkers can look down on these modern floating IKEA loft apartments - and feel good about themselves. There is a very definite element of snobbery mixed I suspect, with the knowledge that actually, there's a lot about modern boats to like.

Half right. I have seen far more snobbery from the owners of old boats like the contessa 32 and even worse from those few who are wealthy enough to be able still to use an old wooden racer of the sort that would have had paid crew. And then again when I had a cat, I got the snobbery bit from monohull boats. If there wasnt snobbery in sailing why would we have defaced ensigns - I refused to fly one when I was a member of the RCYC. And I definitely look down on wet bike riders!!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Half right. I have seen far more snobbery from the owners of old boats like the contessa 32 and even worse from those few who are wealthy enough to be able still to use an old wooden racer of the sort that would have had paid crew. And then again when I had a cat, I got the snobbery bit from monohull boats. If there wasnt snobbery in sailing why would we have defaced ensigns - I refused to fly one when I was a member of the RCYC. And I definitely look down on wet bike riders!!

That must be why I have an old wooden racer. It’s to make up for me having a multihull.

 

[Tranona]

I have confounded my own prejudices as mentioned at the start. Whilst looking at a Vancouver I was persuaded to get on board a Bav 34. What a shock! Internally the boat was immaculate but more to the point it had been built well, finished nicely and no way was it the IKEA finish that seems to be the case on every Benny I have been on. Entirely acceptable, even attractive.

Only issue was the ridiculous cockpit layout that had you clambering over the deck to get behind the wheel ( no wheel cut outs) and the two sheet winches were only accessible for the person behind the wheel.

Interesting tandem keel. Would have bought the boat but for the cockpit layout.

Yes that was an issue with the smaller Bavs of that era, but in reality you learn to live with it did not put buyers off it seems, it was Bavaria's all time best seller. Go up a size and the problem goes away. Some have fitted the folding Lewmar wheel which eases things when not sailing. Later wider sterned models like my Farr designed 33 had plenty of room and I specified the extra winches. It was a dream to sail singlehanded and move around the cockpit. Restricted space around the wheel is a problem for most sub 35' of that era but as sterns grew wider more space was available, although some used thee space to fit unnecessarily large wheels. If your budget runs to it suggest you look at the 2014-18 33. Not as rich looking down below, but is even better put together in a mechanistic kind of way, but very robust, practical and sails better with its fractional rig.. There are 3 or 4 for sale in the £70-80k range.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Watched the German video. The steering wheel set up on the long keeler looks ridiculous, plus it’s 40 feet and slower than the two smaller boats upwind. The Sun Odyessey 30i is doing fine in terms of speed - looks like it would be more comfortable with a reef. The HR is clearly the tool for that particular job though. The genoa gives it an SA/D of over 20, and her ballast/displacement ratio is 46. Lots of power to punch through those waves. Didn’t realise it had a fractional rig too. Nice boat!

Listening to the German commentary, the tiller on the HR makes a big difference downwind, making it easier to put in big, fast, corrections when it veers off. The long keeler is ridiculous downwind, the helmsman is spinning the wheel like a lunatic to hold a course - poor choice of long keeler IMO, should of gone for a tiller steered boat.

What this was, was a boat test in a specific set of circumstances that said more about the individual boats concerned, than a general comparison of genres - even with a 45 footer I'd only be out in that if I had to.

Heavier boats of 35ft will be more comfortable in that wave amplitude and wavelength due to the inertia imparted by the weight. Heavier designs came from an era where cruising boats were generally smaller, so to tame the motion, they were ballasted more and their hull shapes made more forgiving.

Average boat size, and weight, have increased since then, so the need to ballast a bigger, heavier hull in the way they used to with smaller hulls is diminished. A bigger boat is more stable and heavier (due to the increased size) than a smaller one and as the market for new boats now has 40ft hulls being the norm, even for a starter boat, this is a considerable increase over the mid 20ft hulls of yesteryear. There was a heavier design philosophy in the past - weigh them down to make them more comfy.

Hull shapes and ballast ratios have changed to reflect the increase in average boat size, and this makes smaller scaled-down AWB designs more lively than their counterparts from the past.

Interestingly, in the test, none of them let the boat run on autopilot, which I for one use extensively for miserable passages, where staying at the helm getting wet and cold is far less comfortable than hiding under the spray hood with a cup of tea.

Reef down, balance the sail plan, and be comfortable IMO.

.... and no-one has mentioned the benefits of motor sailing yet .... I'll get my coat.

 

[Bobc]

I know of a very nice and well looked-after Bavaria 38 that's just been put on the market for about £60k

 

[johnalison]

Listening to the German commentary, the tiller on the HR makes a big difference downwind, making it easier to put in big, fast, corrections when it veers off. The long keeler is ridiculous downwind, the helmsman is spinning the wheel like a lunatic to hold a course - poor choice of long keeler IMO, should of gone for a tiller steered boat.

What this was, was a boat test in a specific set of circumstances that said more about the individual boats concerned, than a general comparison of genres - even with a 45 footer I'd only be out in that if I had to.

Heavier boats of 35ft will be more comfortable in that wave amplitude and wavelength due to the inertia imparted by the weight. Heavier designs came from an era where cruising boats were generally smaller, so to tame the motion, they were ballasted more and their hull shapes made more forgiving.

Average boat size, and weight, have increased since then, so the need to ballast a bigger, heavier hull in the way they used to with smaller hulls is diminished. A bigger boat is more stable and heavier (due to the increased size) than a smaller one and as the market for new boats now has 40ft hulls being the norm, even for a starter boat, this is a considerable increase over the mid 20ft hulls of yesteryear. There was a heavier design philosophy in the past - weigh them down to make them more comfy.

Hull shapes and ballast ratios have changed to reflect the increase in average boat size, and this makes smaller scaled-down AWB designs more lively than their counterparts from the past.

Interestingly, in the test, none of them let the boat run on autopilot, which I for one use extensively for miserable passages, where staying at the helm getting wet and cold is far less comfortable than hiding under the spray hood with a cup of tea.

Reef down, balance the sail plan, and be comfortable IMO.

.... and no-one has mentioned the benefits of motor sailing yet .... I'll get my coat.

Although I am generally in favour of a tiller for boats of this size, a wheel is actually more comfortable for a downwind passage of any length. My 34 with a tiller is not hard to steer downwind, but holding the helm while turning to look forward soon becomes a strain, and I would regularly end up with a stiff neck. You might say use an autopilot, but for me this is not what sailing is about.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Although I am generally in favour of a tiller for boats of this size, a wheel is actually more comfortable for a downwind passage of any length. My 34 with a tiller is not hard to steer downwind, but holding the helm while turning to look forward soon becomes a strain, and I would regularly end up with a stiff neck. You might say use an autopilot, but for me this is not what sailing is about.

Obviously we are tiller steered, but it doesn’t make it hard to look forwards. Generally you sit on the coaming, where there’s a helmsman’s perch, feet on the seat, facing slightly forward. An extension the right length is vital, and none of your old broomstick nonsense. A Spinlock spade grip is required, adjustable length. It maybe helps that our tiller loads are light, and the boat doesn’t require constant correction, not even in moderately large seas. The only other boat I’ve regularly helmed recently is a 57ft gaffer, which, whilst it had heavy steering, didn’t dart about. It wasn’t your neck that got stiff, but your whole shoulder girdle from the load in the tiller. I suppose a wheel makes it easier to look forwards, not sure it makes it easier to steer a small to moderate boat.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I know of a very nice and well looked-after Bavaria 38 that's just been put on the market for about £60k

My brother found one of those in the Lake District, had been used as a getaway for a club and was "as new" inside, and had never seen salt water. He shipped it up to Scotland as it is now a family boat plying the Western Isles, he is very happy with it.

It ended up on YouTube here ...

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Although I am generally in favour of a tiller for boats of this size, a wheel is actually more comfortable for a downwind passage of any length. My 34 with a tiller is not hard to steer downwind, but holding the helm while turning to look forward soon becomes a strain, and I would regularly end up with a stiff neck. You might say use an autopilot, but for me this is not what sailing is about.

Not what sailing is about for me either when the conditions are good, but when they are wet and cold, we just want to get there generally - unless I have a willing crew who want to thrash about.