Blue water weather kit

[Mike_Martin]

Quote " I'm sure they'd like to sell you kit, of whatever source, but if it happens to be illegal in the country in which you ask the question, then they are pretty much obliged to give you the legal answer. If you want a system as stated, just do a google search, and don't ask suppliers or manufacturers to give you advice outside the law or they could get into some trouble"

Well pointed out that man! Maritime Radio Suppliers are, in fact, licensed as well.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Mike_Martin]

As mentioned elsewhere! It is illegal if you are correctly licensed as the terms of the Ship radio Licence spell it out. If you're not licensed it's just even more illegal.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Mike_Martin]

The only EU approved set that I am aware of at the moment is from Barrett Communications, however, I understand that ICOM UK are trying to convince ICOM Japan that there is a worthwhile market in Europe for the products.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Mike_Martin]

I think the simplest way to answer this and calm you two down is to state that the prohibitions come from the radio licences that allow use of the equipment.

A radio licence authorises/allows you to do something that you are not authorised to do without it. The licence specifies what it allows you to do. It is not for a licensee to try and second guess on issues that are not specified but to check with the licensing authority first.

So the Ship Radio Licence terms are here:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101

The Amateur Radio Licence Terms (all 3) are here:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/am_radio/?a=87101

You will notice after perusal that neither allow cross-service operations, hence ICOM UK's advice to you is in fact right.

I hope this helps to calm things down.

Mike


<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Just to put my 2p worth in - all the above is factually correct I am sure BUT the reality of the situation is that if you get your Icom M710 or whatever outside of UK waters - Gibraltar eg - (they will happily dispatch to there) and you can receive it 'snipped' actually its just the software that is altered it will transmit on both sides so you can work both HAM and Marine frequecies - The ham is useful if you really have a major problem and if you do the Hams will talk to you for the duration of the problem.
With a very few ham exceptions nobody cruising has two sets on board - everyone uses one that has been altered.
All these problems arise because legislation is out of date and out of touch with the reality of the situation and at the moment the Law is an Ass as regards licencensing and operating these sets.
My best advice is get the set in Gib - costs no more - install it - include it on your basic radio licence along with the vhf, radar, iperb etc. Find a blue water cruisier to tell you about the system and go ahead and use it. That is what the majority of people do... If you get really interested in things radio become a ham - appears to be a great hobby - operating an SSB is rather less demanding than operating a mobile phone - it has almost zero saftey implications in this day and age except as a form of communicaation and the emphasis on the ability to send a mayday by this means is senseless as nobody will be listening - I speak from experience confirmed by research.
quietly ducking in case I get shot for having an opinion
regards

<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[JonBrooks]

Thanks Mike

Was looking but could not find the links I needed to back up what I was saying.

No, at this time Icom do not make a SSB radio that is legal to fit to a UK/ EU reg vessle.

You have the choice of Barrett ot Furuno..

Regards

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks
Marine Dealer Manager
Icom UK Ltd.
01227 741741

 

[Sea Devil]

Just to continue with the buying in Gibraltar theme - I have certainly received from the UK via I think it was cruisermart an Icom M710 or similar + ATU and the straps etc shipped into Gib without VAT and if a UK firm will not supply then ICOM US via west marine will - they sent me a 'dual' set M710 to Djbouti last year to replace the one I had taken by pirates. They are excellent sets with easy plugs to for Sailmail modems etc and into laptop.
The cost of buying even with shipping costs in Gib is at least 17% cheaper than UK with the vat. Also Gib does not operate senseless operating licence codes which in reality are merely a form indirect tax. buy in Gib and other than including in your general licence as stated - do not bother with the operator s licence.... And do not worry about irrational legislation which is not backed up in any case by any affirmative action in reality. This is my opinion and my experience so far... ducking!
regards

<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[JonBrooks]

Am sure Mike will back,confirm or correct but
If you are a UK reg vessel you must fit the approved kit for your country.

Some dealers/ manufactures are not as responsible as us here.
We always try ensure you have the right advice.
Also if we don't and you do get knicked you will have a beef with us!

You can indeed buy in Gib or the US and fit to your vessel but if you UK reg then it don't make it legal.

M701 is a bit of a red herring as it was legal to fit, still is if its 2nd hand.
We can no longer supply as its not CE marked or aprroved under R&TTE.

Regards

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks
Marine Dealer Manager
Icom UK Ltd.
01227 741741

 

[Mike_Martin]

Setting aside my Ofcom hat for a moment. You are probably right as long as you don't come across an inspector (from a foreign administration) that is fully aware of the rules, who proceeds to check the terms of your UK licence.

If you are GB flagged AND with a licence the rules require said inspector to report you to us for action to be taken.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Mike thanks,

Just have to correct myself - certainly UK cc do monitor 2182 - I have been away so long I got it wrong thinking the UK was like the rest of the world -

Having used 2182 3 times, in non uk waters, in serious problem situations, with no response what so ever you can understand my attitude to it in the real world -

On the other hand all merchant ships seem to have ch16 on and will respond to mayday. (provided the captain does not think it will cost his company too much!)

My beef with the long distance licence is that all that training is unrelated to the reality of blue water sailing and nowadays the primary users of SSB after high seas fishermen are cruising yachts chatting, running security nets and speaking to weather advisors like Herb. I was net controller for the red sea net for some time and I promise you the majority of yachts on the net did not have operators licences -

We mainly use the simplex mode and operationly it is easier to master than a mobile telephone which I find challanging - particulaly in French!

I have never heard of any cruising yacht being asked for a long distance operators licence by anyone - ever....ever.

When I first had a SSB I used to contact Portishead on a regular basis from the Med and Antilles and never did an operator ask if I had a licence. OK you cannot comment as it's your job - do understand = but it would be good if the licencing authorities looked again at the operators licence situation and why on earth a small yacht cannot have a set that operates on both sides of the band!

- The age of the mobile/sat telephone has made SSB almost obsolete which is a real shame as it has enourmus value offshore for cruising boats and access to it should be made easier. It is such an excellent saftey tool in far away places.
regards and still ducking........

<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[Mike_Martin]

I think I may be able to supply a reason why you weren't answered on 2182 Khz, or at least food for thought.

It could be because under the GMDSS, in operation since 1999, MF calling (like VHF) is done using Digital Selective Calling (MF/DSC operates on 2187.5 Khz). It is possible that the vessels (especially if they were Merchant) you called had no RO monitoring the near defunct 2182 Khz frequency.

From memory, UK CG ceased the dedicated DISTRESS watch on 2182 Khz on midnight 31/05/02 and ceased ALL listening on 31/01/03. All marine guidance now instructs the use of MF/DSC for contact, this includes Medicos etc.

As to the issue of people not holding Operator Certificates and using their Marine equipment perfectly well .............. well um......

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Mike, that is helpful. Presumably the term "ship frequencies" is defined somewhere? Do you know where? The booklet states that "Maritime radio equipment used on board ships shall not.....". Does the antenna, power supply and ATU constitute part of the "equipment"? Is the term "equipment" defined anywhere?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sea Devil]

Mike Yes,
absoluty right - all that merchant ships in 1999 were required to do was to have an ssb on the bridge with an alarm switch which was activated by by the alarm button on the sending set - sorry I do not know the jargon = I suspect today that even that minmum (titanic!) watch is not required -

The worlds coast radio stations are also defunct which brings me back to my beef about the operators licence being nonsense - indeed - what is equipment - how is it defined -

I do indeed hold a vhf operators certificate - one of the very very few exams I have ever passed in my life but when I took that other than Ch 16, Alfa Bravo and mayday I was not required to have any knowlage of propagation, antenna, or anything else... Maybe that has changed. So what is so different about operating an Icom 710 (snipped) for example - purchased and installed in Gib.... smile...

After I posted a reply about your foreign inspectors wanting to see my UK Long range Licence I had to smile - This foreign inspector at minimum would need to read and speak how many european languages?? French, Italian, german, spanish, dutch, indonisian, Malay, Indian, the list is endless and have to know the legislation for all those authorties and how to recognise the documentation! the mind boggles.
You possibly speak and read french but how is your russian/swedish/ just does not happen unless you abuse the system..

My beef is about some group of old men sitting bored to tears inventing rules and regulations that are internationally unenforcable, benefit nobody and worst of all deter people from installing a fairly simple piece of radio equipment that could save their lives - by enabling them to keep in touch with weather info, other yachts and once communications are established other ships..

Sorry I do bang on but it saddens me to read the posts about people spending large sums of money much time taking nonsense exams...
still ducking


<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[Mike_Martin]

Bambola Quote "My beef is about some group of old men sitting bored to tears inventing rules and regulations that are internationally unenforcable, benefit nobody and worst of all deter people from installing a fairly simple piece of radio equipment that could save their lives - by enabling them to keep in touch with weather info, other yachts and once communications are established other ships.."

So just to get this straight in my mind, you seem to be saying that the fact the people responsible for managing the system (IMO and ITU) have decided on some simple qualifications to ensure that users have at least a basic knowledge of how their safety system (GMDSS) works is unacceptable.

While I can accept that to you personally (bearing in mind your technical ability as shown on your site) it may appear to be pointless, I find it hard to accept that you really believe that for the majority of untechnical people joining in that this is also true. For example, you, yourself have shown that you are not aware of how Maritime MF calling operates yet you use the radio on a regular basis. That's before we even get onto the whole concept of propogation which is essential knowledge when it comes to real long range comms.

Does it help to explain where the ITU is coming from when I put it like that?

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Mike_Martin]

They are defined in the Appendices 13, 15, 17, 18 of the international Radio Regulations, of course the Regs are huge covering all radio services. There is a more specific ITU publication available entitled " Manual for use by the Maritime Mobile and Maritime Mobile-Satellite Services" which concentrates on the Maritime radio extracts of the Regs.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Mike hi,

This is not supposed to be personal - not attacking you - simply questioning the system.

You are right - I am way out of touch with DSC on VHF in UK waters frankly because I have not sailed in the Uk for over 12 years and if I did I would use my mobile phone to make telephone calls - I have also not interfaced my GPS with the VHF although I admit if I were regulaly in UK waters I would probably do so - seems sensible. I am not complaining about the VHF operators licence - of course training and knowlage is needed. I am only discussing the value - if any - of the present course for obtaining a licence to operate an SSB from a cruising yacht...

You do not have to like my web site - Why should you? Not your thing but also you should never judge a book by its cover.

As to my knowlage of marine frequencies HF radio - well hard for me to judge - it is simply that in my experience the reality of yachts using SSB is totally differerent from the theory offered in a radio course in the UK for a licence.

It would be stupid for me to bang on about how I speak regulaly with friends in the Antilles. Have been net controller for 100 odd boat spread out across the Red Sea. Used Portishead on a regular basis from the Eastern Med and across the Atlantic from waters around Cuba. Controlled via HF rescue operations in the South Pacific until warships were able to come on scene - I must have some knowlage of propagation, antenna, ground plates (I have fitted SSB's to boats so far - unaided and my colleagues report I have an excellent signal - but who are they to judge?) Sent and received email/weather fax from stations thousands of miles away... boring...

Mike. This is not personal - simply I have an opinion that is as valid as anyones - A great song and dance is made out of operating a basicly simple piece of equipment not so different from VHF. It is not brain surgery and an SSB with an ATU fitted in a cruising yacht with an isolated backstay for the antenna and a ground plate is frankly very easy operate and to do so requires very little training.

YOU are in a position to listen and possibly do something about it - If people say (and I am not the only one -- read the posts -- ) that there is something wrong with the Licence system in regards to the operation of SSB in UK registered yachts then it may be worth investigating this claim.

Possibly you could bring to the attention of the 'Old men' making up the unenforceble rules and regulations that possibly there is a difference between the theory and reality. Possibly they need to look at the reasons for the course to have an operators licence? Are they still valid? Does the course actually serve a sensible purpose? Of course there are safety implication - of course proper proceadures should be known but it should be in context with how it all actually works rather than some imaginary concept.



<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[Sea Devil]

With a smile - you keep getting these posts as I am sitting here in La Rochelle - the transmission is out of my boat being rebuilt and I am bored out of my tree - should be sailing on a beautiful day like today -


<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[Mike_Martin]

Michael,

Please believe me when I say it's never personal, this is my job not who I am. As to your website I absolutely loved it, as a child I was a Dr WHO fanatic, as a teen Blakes7 was the weekly meat. Can't be horrible to someone who was involved in both.

My point was only that your opinion is yours. My opinion is based on my experience over the last 5 years, having come into close and personal contact with many thousands of my customers. All I am really saying is that your experience does not carry across the board, not even close.

As to talking to the ITU I can't see any real argument for changing the syllabus of the LRC. It's function is to teach people about how the service works which it does, it goes into lots of detail on how to use MF/HF properly and as an extra covers the other elements of long range Maritime comms. As has been mentioned before yachts do not only carry SSB, it is quite common now for Mini-M and EPIRBS to be carried by Blue Water cruisers this course explains these as well.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Mike_Martin]

Well i could always take a couple of days leave and drive down to discuss over a few drinks

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Truce -

In UK waters sure your right - in international waters sure I am right.

If you are in La Rochelle do come by - Bambola is in the Vieux Port with a UK licence for all the installed radio equipment! and I am just round down the road..

regards

Michael

<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing