Blue water cruising boat . . .

[RupertW]

I always find your posts interesting as you have actually done it rather than armchair sailors like me..... ?

However I am interested to know your thoughts about this opinion at smaller sizes. Your Moody 33 has a displacement of 4763kg according to sailboat data. A Bavaria 32 from 2000 has a displacement of 3750kg.

So I wonder if the AWB argument makes less difference as the size increases as a bigger boat will probably be easier in bad weather?

Sorry to the op for a bit of thread hijack!

My own view (with some but far less experience than others) is that it’s not so much the size as the shape. Many AWBs have a shape that means they develop a lot of weather helm when excessively heeled and so round up in a big gust if that is the way the sails are balanced. That feels very unnerving and out of control if you are days away from land and not just having fun in an afternoon sail. But the answer (which took me a while to allow myself to do) is to balance the sails to the boat to allow for gusts and use the boat shape rather than fighting it. Then an AWB can feel very safe indeed in nasty conditions.

 

[capnsensible]

I always find your posts interesting as you have actually done it rather than armchair sailors like me..... ?

However I am interested to know your thoughts about this opinion at smaller sizes. Your Moody 33 has a displacement of 4763kg according to sailboat data. A Bavaria 32 from 2000 has a displacement of 3750kg.

So I wonder if the AWB argument makes less difference as the size increases as a bigger boat will probably be easier in bad weather?

Sorry to the op for a bit of thread hijack!

Thank you!

Probably, as you say, more modern smaller boats might not be so comfortable at sea. I often sail a Beneteau 331 and I would probably think twice about going a long way offshore in her.

 

[shaunksb]

My wife and I looking to buy a second hand blue water cruiser. This is not an area we are that experienced in. <snip>
Comfort at sea and safety are our two biggest priorities. Our budget is in the up to £90k range.

Two boats we are looking at are an Oyster Heritage 37 and Trident Warrior 40. Thoughts and opinions on these please? Also other boats we should add to our list.

With that budget you want this,

Moody 44 Used Boat for Sale 1992 | TheYachtMarket

I don’t mean one like this, I mean this actual one.

It’s one owner has kept it little used and fully updated since he had it. It has the tankage and comfort to take you pretty much anywhere and with it’s furling rig even I can sail it singlehanded.

PS The brokers mobile phone camera doesn’t do it justice.

__________________________

 

[Skylark]

With that budget you want this,

Moody 44 Used Boat for Sale 1992 | TheYachtMarket

I don’t mean one like this, I mean this actual one.

It’s one owner has kept it little used and fully updated since he had it. It has the tankage and comfort to take you pretty much anywhere and with it’s furling rig even I can sail it singlehanded.

PS The brokers mobile phone camera doesn’t do it justice.

__________________________

I know the boat well as I used to berth a couple of boats further along the pontoon from it.

It was always much admired by berthholders and visitors alike.

(I also know the broker so I’ll pass on your feedback the next time I see him ?)

 

[KompetentKrew]

My favourite bue water yacht is a Hans Christian but I accept it would not appeal to a lot of people'

Hans Christian boats for sale - boats.com

A Hans Christian berthed next to me in Lorient this summer - it was about the same nominal length as my boat (40'), but seemed so much more huge and heavy. I think the bowsprit was quite significant.

It took some time to dock and - presumably due to the weight and long keel - seemed like manoeuvring was a challenge.

I have always admired Hans Christians, but seeing this one at close quarters gave me second thoughts.

 

[E39mad]

A Bowman 40 might (if you are lucky) drop into your budget.

Don't discount a Vancouver 36 (it is enormous inside with large tankage/stowage) and can be had for £80000 ish. They are rare and there is one for sale asking silly money which is why it hasn't sold!

Rival 38 maybe getting a little old.

 

[coopec]

A Hans Christian berthed next to me in Lorient this summer - it was about the same nominal length as my boat (40'), but seemed so much more huge and heavy. I think the bowsprit was quite significant.

It took some time to dock and - presumably due to the weight and long keel - seemed like manoeuvring was a challenge.

I have always admired Hans Christians, but seeing this one at close quarters gave me second thoughts.

"Hans Christians are built to cross oceans. They are strong and powerful little ships.
The number of Hans Christians that are still out there circumnavigating the world is testament to their suitability for blue water cruising today. Many websites have been set up by owners with creating their own tales of their adventure"

"Graham Stephens of Yarra’s Edge Yachts says “Hans Christians are the type of boat you buy and keep for life. These classic designs are timeless. Many of the new plastic fantastic designs fall short when it comes to true blue water sailing. Motion at sea is a quality that is often unmentioned and this is where Hans Christians excel.” .

They don’t build boats like that anymore

 

[Graham376]

You mention 37 - 42 feet which may not make much difference in purchase price but will make a difference in ongoing cost if you're a marina dweller, can be around 30% difference in price between <12m and 13m. If heading for hot climates, avoid teak decks, they are very hot and £40k isn't unusual for replacement. Cost of updating and preparing for long term cruising is expensive and £10k - £20k can easily be spent - think bimini, cockpit tent, solar panels, good dinghy and outboard, davits or gantry etc. Much depends on whether DIY or paid labour.

If I walked around our yard and looked at the boats which have done/are doing the long distances short handed, I would find more older boats of traditional keel and skeg design than mass produced with high aspect keel and spade rudder. Older Westerly, Moody and similar designs still very popular with quite a few steel and aluminium boats. OTOH, people who prefer the safety of company doing the ARC, are increasingly using mass produced boats, quite a few of which are shipped back rather than sailed.

Thanks to Brexit, if you buy after 31/12 and intend to be EU based for a while before heading further, remember that any UK purchased boat will be time limited or have to pay VAT there. Plans change often due to illness and there are some very good and cheap (abandoned dream) cruising boats in southern European yards.

 

[Graham376]

They don’t build boats like that anymore

Maybe because they're a minority taste. No doubt about seaworthyness but they strike me as high maintenance boats, the two owners I know always seem to be varnishing. Compared to more popular designs, not much room below decks.

 

[RupertW]

You mention 37 - 42 feet which may not make much difference in purchase price but will make a difference in ongoing cost if you're a marina dweller, can be around 30% difference in price between <12m and 13m. If heading for hot climates, avoid teak decks, they are very hot and £40k isn't unusual for replacement. Cost of updating and preparing for long term cruising is expensive and £10k - £20k can easily be spent - think bimini, cockpit tent, solar panels, good dinghy and outboard, davits or gantry etc. Much depends on whether DIY or paid labour.

If I walked around our yard and looked at the boats which have done/are doing the long distances short handed, I would find more older boats of traditional keel and skeg design than mass produced with high aspect keel and spade rudder. Older Westerly, Moody and similar designs still very popular with quite a few steel and aluminium boats. OTOH, people who prefer the safety of company doing the ARC, are increasingly using mass produced boats, quite a few of which are shipped back rather than sailed.

Thanks to Brexit, if you buy after 31/12 and intend to be EU based for a while before heading further, remember that any UK purchased boat will be time limited or have to pay VAT there. Plans change often due to illness and there are some very good and cheap (abandoned dream) cruising boats in southern European yards.

That is interesting - it may be an Atlantic coast thing but in most of the Med I have seen very few of the older heavier designs who regularly go to the Caribbean, just a few who did that a few years ago but now stay local. Most of the ones who have recently voyaged or are planning to soon seem to be AWBs, and that’s even more true of those who plan to go to NZ or Oz.

 

[Rappey]

Had to Google the oyster 37 to see what it looks like.
Here is an older thread
Oyster Heritage 37
I can see its resemblance to a rustler 36.
I can see that a awb offers a more modern spacious interior and cockpit and in nice weather performs well.
The older more traditional blue water boat often offers more storage and can carry more weight without affecting performance but less interior volume.
As the winds and waves increase the older boat comes into its own in terms of quality of ride.
What boat to choose ? That is a really hard choice to make.

 

[Graham376]

That is interesting - it may be an Atlantic coast thing but in most of the Med I have seen very few of the older heavier designs who regularly go to the Caribbean, just a few who did that a few years ago but now stay local. Most of the ones who have recently voyaged or are planning to soon seem to be AWBs, and that’s even more true of those who plan to go to NZ or Oz.

The OP said Blue Water rather than a Med boat. I don't see high aspect deep keels and spade rudders as suitable for a long distance blue water liveaboard boat but of course others will disagree. The steriotypical Hamble based dreamers would look down their noses at many of the old boats actually out there doing it.

EDIT - I'm not suggesting the OP looks a traditional long keelers. You mention AWBs but, which AWBs ? There are many differences, such as the two below. One is obviously faster but the other will be far more comfortable ride in nasty conditions.

 

[ashtead]

I would think either of the boats suggested would make lovely project boats but maybe it more a question of items you need on a blue water boat and the intended destination . It also turns on how good the OP is on maintenance I suspect as to what appeals. Many out there cruising in wide variety of vessels so maybe some blogs are a better source of info or the owners clubs who might know the foibles of each. Warriors always strike me as boats which have been owned by same owners for many years based on ones I have seen so clearly many are happy with their choice .

 

[RupertW]

The OP said Blue Water rather than a Med boat. I don't see high aspect deep keels and spade rudders as suitable for a long distance blue water liveaboard boat but of course others will disagree. The steriotypical Hamble based dreamers would look down their noses at many of the old boats actually out there doing it.

I was saying that the majority of long voyagers don’t share your views and that it’s the voyagers who happened to be in the Med as part of their season (and the Canaries where I am now) are exactly fin keel and spade rudder boats, and that’s what I also observe when I’m in the Caribbean.

 

[geem]

I was saying that the majority of long voyagers don’t share your views and that it’s the voyagers who happened to be in the Med as part of their season (and the Canaries where I am now) are exactly fin keel and spade rudder boats, and that’s what I also observe when I’m in the Caribbean.

Thats not my experience of the Caribbean. You will find places like Martinique that have a domestic boat population will be predominantly AWBs and many French have holiday homes there and yachts. There is also a large charter fleet in the BVIs, the Grenadines and the French islands that use AWBs. In lots of anchorages around the Caribbean you see a mix of older designs and AWBs. Increasingly the Caribbean is populated by catamarans.
We have lots of friends as liveaboards in the Caribbean and I cant think of a single one of them with an AWB.
We have met young couples that have bought an AWB in the Med and they are sailing it to Oz to sell. There wont be many doing that at the moment since parts of French Polynesia are in lock down

 

[David faucher]

The Rustler 36, three R36 on the GGR podium !

 

[duncan99210]

When looking for a long term liveaboard boat, I looked first at the Moodys and Westerlys (and so on), because of their reputation as solidly built boats able to take whatever was thrown at them. I soon gave up on them as they were uniformly in pretty poor condition and needed half the purchase price spending on them to bring them up to a usable standard. In addition, as long term liveaboard boats, they lacked many of the creature comforts needed to keep life tolerable: small living spaces, tiny heads compartments, cluttered saloons.
In the end, I bought a Bavaria, which has done splendidly in 6 years full time liveaboard and 5 years of summer use. Once you’ve realised that you need to match the sails to the weather then the boat is a delight to handle in even the worst of conditions. By and large it’s dry, the cockpit is big enough for outdoor living in hot climates but small enough to be safe and the accommodation below is light and airy.
If you try and use more sail than is suitable for the weather on the Bavaria, things will not go well! I‘m beginning to think that a lot of the opinions on the seaworthiness or otherwise of AWBs arises from people failing to appreciate just how fast an AWB will sail under a fraction of the sail area needed to keep a heavier older boat moving.

 

[geem]

When looking for a long term liveaboard boat, I looked first at the Moodys and Westerlys (and so on), because of their reputation as solidly built boats able to take whatever was thrown at them. I soon gave up on them as they were uniformly in pretty poor condition and needed half the purchase price spending on them to bring them up to a usable standard. In addition, as long term liveaboard boats, they lacked many of the creature comforts needed to keep life tolerable: small living spaces, tiny heads compartments, cluttered saloons.
In the end, I bought a Bavaria, which has done splendidly in 6 years full time liveaboard and 5 years of summer use. Once you’ve realised that you need to match the sails to the weather then the boat is a delight to handle in even the worst of conditions. By and large it’s dry, the cockpit is big enough for outdoor living in hot climates but small enough to be safe and the accommodation below is light and airy.
If you try and use more sail than is suitable for the weather on the Bavaria, things will not go well! I‘m beginning to think that a lot of the opinions on the seaworthiness or otherwise of AWBs arises from people failing to appreciate just how fast an AWB will sail under a fraction of the sail area needed to keep a heavier older boat moving.

You make some sweeping generalisations. Why did you only look at tatty old boats? There are some fantastic old boats out there but don't expect to get them for a song just because they are old. Keeping an old boat looking like a new boat takes time and money. The cost of new engines, rigging, new paint, teak, etc is a significant investment.
If you bought a high volume modern AWB compared to a lower volume old boat of the same length then of course your AWB will have more internal volume. How much extra did the new AWB cost you for the extra space? May be you could have considered a larger old boat to give you the same internal volume and space as your modern AWB. You would have got a sea kindly motion and lots of storage. If you are marina based this might not work for you as you will have larger fees but if you spend life at anchor the comfort of a heavier hull takes some beating.
Our heavy old boat regularly out paces modern AWBs. Not all old boats are slow
We all have our own ideas of what we want out sailing and our boats. I do get it that many want a shiny new AWB but there are many that wouldnt want one as a gift. It isnt personal its just a different set of priorities.

 

[stuartwineberg]

Interesting thread and now quite long so I might have missed what the OP actually wants to do with the boat. Is it blue water because he wants a strong boat or is he planning long distance offshore. If the latter, despite liking the suggested Moody very much, I personally would not go offshore with a boat with in mast reefing, too much to go wrong and too much weight high up. I appreciate I might just have started an “anchor” rabbit hole but just my personal preference.

 

[stuartwineberg]

When looking for a long term liveaboard boat, I looked first at the Moodys and Westerlys (and so on), because of their reputation as solidly built boats able to take whatever was thrown at them. I soon gave up on them as they were uniformly in pretty poor condition and needed half the purchase price spending on them to bring them up to a usable standard. In addition, as long term liveaboard boats, they lacked many of the creature comforts needed to keep life tolerable: small living spaces, tiny heads compartments, cluttered saloons.
In the end, I bought a Bavaria, which has done splendidly in 6 years full time liveaboard and 5 years of summer use. Once you’ve realised that you need to match the sails to the weather then the boat is a delight to handle in even the worst of conditions. By and large it’s dry, the cockpit is big enough for outdoor living in hot climates but small enough to be safe and the accommodation below is light and airy.
If you try and use more sail than is suitable for the weather on the Bavaria, things will not go well! I‘m beginning to think that a lot of the opinions on the seaworthiness or otherwise of AWBs arises from people failing to appreciate just how fast an AWB will sail under a fraction of the sail area needed to keep a heavier older boat moving.

We had a Bavaria 32 in the past and I agree with all of this. Reef the main early and it went anywhere. I now own a Moody and I do think it’s a better built boat than the Bavaria but of course older and needing more upkeep.