Blue ensign

volvopaul

volvopaul

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Can anyone tell me what the fine could be for flying a blue ensign and not actually having the right to do so??? oh and by the way its not me!!!!!

A friend was in Weymouth last week and was challenged by some anorak as to his right to fly etc, they then took photographs and threatened him of reporting him to the home secretary, im sure it will be on his top priority list as this country is in such a fine state of affairs.
 
volvopaul said:
Can anyone tell me what the fine could be for flying a blue ensign and not actually having the right to do so??? oh and by the way its not me!!!!!

A friend was in Weymouth last week and was challenged by some anorak as to his right to fly etc, they then took photographs and threatened him of reporting him to the home secretary, im sure it will be on his top priority list as this country is in such a fine state of affairs.
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Nothing to do with the Home Secretary. The Warrant is issued to the Club by the Secretary of State for Defence. The club then issues a permit to qualifying members and their specific boat.

On the permit there is no mention of any penalty for improper use other than the permit can be withdrawn!


So I think your friend can sleep well tonight and add his story to the repertoire for the club bar!
 
Conditions Governing the Issue of Yacht Permits to Members of Entitled Yacht Clubs in the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands
By Section 4 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, it is an offence to hoist on board any ship or boat belonging to any British subject certain colours, flags and pendants without a Permit from Her Majesty the Queen or from the Secretary of State for Defence. The maximum penalty is one thousand pounds for each offence. Among the prohibited flags are the Union Flag, the White Ensign, the Blue Ensign (plain or defaced) and the Red Ensign with any defacement. The prohibition applies to any ship or boat belonging to any British Subject wherever it may be, and so extends not only to tidal waters but equally to rivers, lakes and inland waters generally.

Yachts may not wear the special Ensigns prohibited above except:

Under a Warrant issued to the yacht owner by the Secretary of State for Defence prior to April 1st 1985 and in accordance with the conditions stated hereon, or
Under a Permit issued to a yacht owner by a Yacht Club from 1st April 1985 onwards and in accordance with the conditions set out below.
Conditions.

Permit: The Yacht must be issued with a Permit by a Yacht Club pursuant to the granting of a Warrant to that Club by the Secretary of State for Defence.
Registration and Measurement.
a) Registration.
The Yacht must be a ship registered under either:
(i) Part I of the Register of British Ships or
(ii) Part III of the Register of British Ships (Small Ships Register)
b) Measurement.
The Yacht must measure not less than:
(i) 2 tons gross if registered under a(i) above
(ii) 7 metres in length overall if registered under a(ii) above
Membership of Designated Yacht Club.
The Owner or Owners of the Yacht must have current membership of one of the Yacht Clubs in the United Kingdom or Channel Islands to which a Warrant has been issued and which is designated in the Navy List.
Nationality.
The Owner or Owners must be British Citizens.
Use of Yacht.
a) The Special Ensign may only be worn on a Yacht used exclusively for private and personal purposes of the Yachtsman to whom the the Permit is issued.
b) The Yacht must not be used for any professional, business or commercial purpose. A Yacht whose name incorporates a name, product or trademark used for business or commercial purposes is not eligible for a permit.
c) A Yacht which is never used for cruising, eg a Houseboat, is ineligible for a permit.
Limited Companies.
A Yacht which is the property of a Limited Company may be eligible for a permit provided the provisions of Condition 5 are complied with, and the user is a British Subject and a Member of a designated Yacht Club.
Presence of Permit Holder.
Except under the provisions of Condition 6, a Permit does not confer any authority while the Yacht is being sailed by anyone other than the Owner in person, thus a Special Ensign may not be worn unless the Owner or user (see condition 6) of the Yacht is on board, or in effective control of her when she is in Harbour or at anchor near the shore, and the Clubs Burgee, is flown at the main masthead, or other suitable position. The Permit must always be carried on board when a Special Ensign is worn.
Separate Authorisation from Each Club.
If the Owner or user belongs to more than one designated club, he must have on board the Permit authorising the particular Ensign, which is being worn.
Note - A member of a privileged club who shares a Yacht with joint owners ineligible of belonging to that club because of restricted membership qualifications may exceptionally apply for a permit. All applications under this exception must be supported by written confirmation that the other owners are ineligible for membership of the Yacht Club concerned. A permit issued in these circumstances is valid only when the joint owner in whose name the Permit is issued is on board or in effective control of the Yacht when at anchor or in harbour near the shore.
Charter or Loan of Yacht for which the Permit is Issued.
It is expressly forbidden for the person borrowing or chartering the aforesaid Yacht to wear the privilege Ensign for which a Permit has been previously issued by the owner's club.
Return of Permit.
When a Yacht is sold, there is a change of ownership, or the owner ceases to be a member of the Club, the Permit must at once be surrendered to the Secretary of the Club who shall forthwith cancel it.
Alterations to Permits.
No alterations are to be made to Permits. If the name of the Yacht is changed, or alterations are made which affect the Register, the Permit is to be withdrawn by the Secretary of the Club. A new Permit may be issued provided the provisions of these conditions are otherwise satisfied.
Permits Lost or Stolen.
In the event of a Permit being lost or stolen, the member must forward to the Secretary of the Club a report on the circumstances of the loss and the steps taken to recover it. The Secretary of the Club may, at his discretion, issue a fresh permit.
Tenders
The special Ensign may be worn by any boat which belongs to the Yacht and which can be conveniently hoisted on board.
Foreign Cruises.
When cruising in Foreign waters a Yacht for which a permit to wear a Special Ensign has been issued should take care to avoid any action which might result in complications with a Foreign Power.
A Permit for a Yacht to wear a Special Ensign becomes invalid if the provisions of the above Conditions are not met.
Etiquette.
Permit holders should comply with the custom, when in harbour, of hoisting the Ensign at 0800 (15 February to 31 October) otherwise at 0900 and lowering the Ensign at local Sunset (or 2100 local time if earlier).
 
Paul, I have no idea what the fine might be but here are the rules;-

The Blue Ensign undefaced is worn masters of vessels in possession of a warrant issued by the Director of Naval Reserves, and by the members of certain yacht clubs. Such warrants are issued to officers in the active or retired lists of the Royal Naval Reserve and the maritime reserve forces of other Commonwealth Realms and territories. The master must be of the rank of Lieutenant RN or above, and fishing vessels must be crewed by at least four other Royal Naval reservists or pensioners.

British government departments use a variety of blue ensigns defaced in the fly with the department badge, and colonial governments use blue ensigns defaced with the colonial badge. The flag of Australia and those of its states as well as the flag of New Zealand are defaced blue ensigns. Several yacht clubs are also entitled to fly blue ensigns defaced by their club badge.


oopps, a bit late and a tad understated ;-)
 
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I would guess that any penalty is not for flying a Blue Ensign itself, but for not flying the correct ensign (if one is required) - so the answer might be under the rules of the Red Ensign.

But if your vessel has no requirement to fly any ensign (and in home waters not?) then can fly what you want, Blue Ensign or Pirate Flag :cool: as long as the intention / likelihood is not to mislead. (trying to appear as a Nouveau Chav probably doesn't count as misleading :D)


The above is not to be construed as legal advice, I am just making it up as I go along - h#ll, it's the internet - if it sounds half reasonable you can post pretty much anything, someone somewhere will probably swallow it :).
 
Well....

You could always tell them it is a "Red" but it got washed in with your blue knickers by mistake and the colour ran. ?
Ps.Perhaps you could recommend Ebay to the complainees... should be possible the get an actual life on there for not much money at all.
Fly your Red with pride.Sail under that flag out of respect for those who gave everything in the past with precious little thanks or recognition
Best leave that blue to those who have purchased the right to fly it because they pay their membership fees to the "right" club. ?
 
I really doubt if anyone much cares apart from those who actually fly a blue/defaced ensign.

Who is to say whether you have a warrant anyway.

As one of the least clubbable people around, I must admit to having to stifle a yawn when all this comes up. Wasn't it Groucho Marx who said that he wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have him.

I imagine that HMRC (or whatever they are called this week) have better things to do than chasing some blue ensign wearing wannabe.

The red duster is recognised everywhere abroad and that will do for me.

Tom
 
Blue Ensign's - no problem, in fact quite the norm down our way :)

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Your friend can be asked by any naval officer, policeman or HMRC officer, to produce the Warrant to support his right to fly the Blue. If he is unable to produce it (even if he actually has one, but has left it at home), he is liable to have the ensign confiscated. Additionally, he and his vessel may be detained for trial, where conviction carries a fine of up to £5000.

My next door neighbour (ex-RN) runs a burger van in a lay-by on the A47. He used to hoist the White ensign on his van, until plod got involved, so now he wears the Red!
 
Perhaps a little off thread, but we fly the RAF ensign at home on 'RAF days' without any hesitation. One of our sons is a RAF pilot and he occasionally gives us a fly-by when in the area and the flag always comes out for that.

I am certainly not pretending that a house half-way down a hillside overlooking the Channel is a RAF Base !!!

Of course I am not entitled to fly it but I see it as a show of support and will continue to do so.

Tom
 
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Missed the bit about the penalty as it is not on the permit, nor the form requesting a permit from your club. Interested to know whther anybody has ever been prosecuted and fined the £1k!

Also terminology is important (for some). It is the Club that has the Warrant for the defaced ensign - the member has a Permit - rather scruffy bit of paper even more ordinary than the SSR card!
 
Can a Frenchman have one

I was just about to post the fact, that I met a French Yottie in northern France 2 weeks ago who was flying the Blue Ensign, on a British registered boat, which he had purchased in the UK some 3 weeks previously. I asked him how he got a Blue Ensign. He gave what appeared appeared to be a cock & bull story, that he was allowed to keep it. I suspect that he found it in a locker, and thought he'd use it.

He is now berthed permanently in northern France. So, is there any way this guy could got hold of this legitamately? If not, as I suspect, I am going to challenge him, next time I see him flying it. I suppose, unless he goes into UK waters, there is not a lot can be done.


Stuart
 
stuartw said:
...He is now berthed permanently in northern France. So, is there any way this guy could got hold of this legitamately? If not, as I suspect, I am going to challenge him, next time I see him flying it...
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Good idea - may I recommend a gentle warning shot across the bows rather than immediately unleashing the full armoury? And video would be good...;)
 
stuartw said:
I am going to challenge him, next time I see him flying it.
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Challenge him?

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Give the lad a break he's in his own country and sure they lost at Waterloo, don't rub his nose in it.

This whole ensign etiquitte fixation thing on mere little leisure boats is hilarious. Folks need to get out more!
 
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