Blue ensign

Tranona said:
So the Frenchman can only register as an individual owner if he is UK resident. Even then he cannot obtain a permit for a Blue Ensign ("special ensign") even if he is a member of a club with a warrant. See Condition 4 of the permit (quoted in the extract from the Merchant Shipping Act in an earlier post).

"Nationality. The owner or owners must be British citizens."

So he is stuffed - demand the £1000 fine and donate to the Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen!
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Sorry that's wrong. Any EU citizen can register on Part I. You're no doubt right about the Blue Ensign.
 
Observer said:
Statement 4 - the Declaration of Eligibility that rickp linked to (classes of eligible owners) makes it a bit clearer:
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Sorry but I still read that as being 'Established' in the UK. ie they have a right of freedom of movement or a right of establishment, but they have to be 'Exercising' that right.

The French have quite strict rules applying to French registered boats. Things like compulsory training and only going a certain distance from shore etc etc. If any French person could register on the British Registry and fly the red ensign surely they would do this and avoid the bureaucracy that goes with a French registered vessel.
 
neale said:
Sorry but I still read that as being 'Established' in the UK. ie they have a right of freedom of movement or a right of establishment, but they have to be 'Exercising' that right.

The French have quite strict rules applying to French registered boats. Things like compulsory training and only going a certain distance from shore etc etc. If any French person could register on the British Registry and fly the red ensign surely they would do this and avoid the bureaucracy that goes with a French registered vessel.
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FFS. Does it not even occur to you that someone may have more knowledge and or experience of this than you? The rules are quite clear that a non-UK, EU corporation can register. It would be perverse if a natural person couldn't.

I haven't researched the EEC Treaty/EEA Agreement references quoted but, as empirical proof of what I am saying, I can confirm that I am a director of a company that acts as representative person for two Part I registered vessels whose owners are non-UK nationals and non-UK resident natural persons. The same company (UK established and no non-UK presence) also owns a vessel registered elsewhere in the EU and has a representative under that country's corresponding law.
 
Observer said:
FFS. Does it not even occur to you that someone may have more knowledge and or experience of this than you? The rules are quite clear that a non-UK, EU corporation can register. It would be perverse if a natural person couldn't.

I haven't researched the EEC Treaty/EEA Agreement references quoted but, as empirical proof of what I am saying, I can confirm that I am a director of a company that acts as representative person for two Part I registered vessels whose owners are non-UK nationals and non-UK resident natural persons. The same company (UK established and no non-UK presence) also owns a vessel registered elsewhere in the EU and has a representative under that country's corresponding law.
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I am not the only one who thinks as I do on this thread, and companies are treated differently to individuals, but as you have decided to lower the tone I shall bow out gracefully.
 
Observer said:
FFS. Does it not even occur to you that someone may have more knowledge and or experience of this than you? The rules are quite clear that a non-UK, EU corporation can register. It would be perverse if a natural person couldn't.

I haven't researched the EEC Treaty/EEA Agreement references quoted but, as empirical proof of what I am saying, I can confirm that I am a director of a company that acts as representative person for two Part I registered vessels whose owners are non-UK nationals and non-UK resident natural persons. The same company (UK established and no non-UK presence) also owns a vessel registered elsewhere in the EU and has a representative under that country's corresponding law.
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That is not what the eligibility section on the MCA website says. From what you are saying it is the corporate body that is the registered owner not the individuals. The individual EU citizen eligibility to register is exactly the same for Part 1 and Part 3. If there was no difference between the natural person and a corporation, why would they have created a specific narrower definition for EU citizens who are eligible?

Of course the website may be a simplification, but I am pretty sure it is word for word from the regulation that brought in the new system.
 
Searush said:
Speaking from memory here, but my understanding is that your vessel has to be fully registered (pt 1) - NOT SSR, in order to qualify for a permit to fly a Blue.
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No, see condition 2 a of the permit. Either Part 1 or Part 3

Empirical evidence my boat is on Part 3 and I have a permit - for a boat that has never been anywhere near the UK, being built in Germany, shipped to Greece, used commercially with Greek registration and transferred to us just under two years ago. Properly de-registered in Greece, £25 on my debit card and now on the SSR. Two owners both members of a club with a warrant and a blue ensign!
 
neale said:
I am not the only one who thinks as I do on this thread, and companies are treated differently to individuals, but as you have decided to lower the tone I shall bow out gracefully.
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Look, do you know exactly the legal effect of "Article 48 or 52 of the EEC Treaty or Article 28 or 31 of the EEA Agreement". If you don't, you're guessing.

I have not researched it but I know from actual experience (that I suspect you don't have) that it IS possible for a non-UK, EU citizen (natural person) to register a vessel under Part I using statement (a) on the Declaration of Eligibility. I have arranged such a registration not just once but twice.

If I appear a little irritated by your obduracy, which is based on ignorance and not actual knowledge, it is hardly surprising.
 
Tranona said:
That is not what the eligibility section on the MCA website says. From what you are saying it is the corporate body that is the registered owner not the individuals. The individual EU citizen eligibility to register is exactly the same for Part 1 and Part 3. If there was no difference between the natural person and a corporation, why would they have created a specific narrower definition for EU citizens who are eligible?

Of course the website may be a simplification, but I am pretty sure it is word for word from the regulation that brought in the new system.
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Actually I was very clear: the owners of the two vessels registered on Part I where the company acts as representative person are natural persons. The converse position, where the company is the owner, is where the vessel is registered in another EU country.
 
wp1234 said:
ZZZZzzzzzz Im begining to lose the will to live !!!
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Nah, just drop below the parapet - this topic (flag etiquette) and anything to do with the Colregs will keep people happy for hours and hours.

Everyone is either an expert (hmmmmm) or has a rock solid opinion.

Personally, having had to commit the Colregs to memory in 1963, and having lived with flag etiquette aboard ship for yonks, I am happy to let others vent their opinions - always interesting.

Tom
 
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Observer said:
Actually I was very clear: the owners of the two vessels registered on Part I where the company acts as representative person are natural persons. The converse position, where the company is the owner, is where the vessel is registered in another EU country.
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This may well be the case if you say so, however it is not in accordance with the MCA advice on eligibility to register a pleasure craft, which is derived from the Merchant Shipping Act.

I think you will find the EU/EEA articles refer to the principles that determine whether a non British EU citizen is resident for the purposes of registering on the UK registers.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/ukr-home/pleasurecraft-smallships/eligibility-pleasure.htm
 
To return to the original point of the thread, and restate from another source, (see the information from Colvic 987), as someone who is entitled to a special ensign, note the following: (amongst other things that the permit should be carried on board, and the requirement for British nationality)

PERMIT

The Yacht must be issued with a Permit by a Yacht Club pursuant to the granting of a Warrant to that Club by the Secretary of State for Defence.

REGISTRATION AND MEASUREMENT
a. Registration. The Yacht must be a ship registered under either:

Part I of the Register of British Ships or
Part III of the Register of British Ships (Small Ships Register)
b. Measurement. The Yacht must measure not less than:

2 tons gross if registered under a (1) above.
7 metres (21ft) in length overall if registered under a (2) above.

MEMBERSHIP OF DESIGNATED YACHT CLUB
The owner or owners of the Yacht must have current membership of one of the Yacht Clubs in the United Kingdom or Channel Islands to which a warrant has been issued and which is designated in the Navy list.


NATIONALITY
The owner or owners must be British Citizens


USE OF YACHT
a. The special Ensign may only be worn on a yacht used exclusively for private and personal purposes of the Yachtsman to whom the Permit is issued.
b. The Yacht must not be used for any professional, business or commercial purpose. A Yacht whose name incorporates a name, product or trademark used for business or commercial purposes is not eligible for a permit.
c. A yacht which is never used for cruising e.g. a houseboat is ineligible for a Permit.



LIMITED COMPANIES
A Yacht which is the property of a Limited Company may be eligible for a Permit provided the provisions of Condition 5 are complied with, and the user is a British subject and a member of a designated Yacht Club.


PRESENCE OF HOLDER OF PERMIT
Except under the provisions of Condition 6. a Permit does not confer any authority while the Yacht is being sailed by anyone other than the owner in person, thus a special Ensign may not be worn unless the owner or user (see Condition 6) of the Yacht is on board, or in effective control of her when she is in harbour or at anchor near the shore, and the Club’s burgee, is flown at the main masthead, or other suitable position. The Permit must always be carried on board when a Special Ensign is worn.


SEPARATE AUTHORISATION FROM EACH CLUB.
If the owner or user belongs to more than one of the designated Clubs, he must have, on board the Permit authorising the particular Ensign which is being worn.

NOTE:

A member of a privileged club who shares a yacht with joint owners ineligible to belong to that club because of restrictive membership qualifications may exceptionally apply for a permit. All applications under this exception must be supported by written confirmation that the other owners are ineligible for membership of the yacht club concerned. A Permit issued in these circumstances is valid only when the joint owner in whose name the Permit is issued in on board, or in effective control of the Yacht when in harbour or at anchor near the shore.



CHARTER OF LOAN OF YACHT FOR WHICH PERMIT ISSUED
It is expressly forbidden for the person borrowing or chartering the aforesaid yacht to wear the privilege ensign for which a permit has been previously issued by the owner’s club.


RETURN OF PERMIT
When a yacht is sold, there is a change of ownership, or the owner ceases to be a member of the Club, the Permit must at once be surrendered to the Secretary of the Club who shall forthwith cancel it.


ALTERATIONS TO PERMITS
No alterations are to be made to Permits. If the name of the Yacht is changed, or alterations are made which affect the register, the Permit is to be withdrawn by the Secretary of the Club. A new Permit may be issued provided the provisions of these Conditions are otherwise satisfied.


PERMITS LOST OR STOLEN
In the event of a Permit being lost or stolen, the member must forward to the Secretary of the Club a report on the circumstances of the loss and the steps taken to recover it. The Secretary of the Club may, at this discretion, issue a fresh Permit.


TENDERS
The special Ensign may be worn by any boat which belongs to the Yacht and can conveniently be hoisted on board her.


FOREIGN CRUISES
When cruising in foreign waters a Yacht for which a Permit to wear a special Ensign has been issued should take care to avoid any action which might result in complications with a foreign power. A permit for a Yacht to wear a special Ensign becomes invalid if the provisions of the above Conditions are not met.



ETIQUETTE
Permit holders may wish to comply with the custom, when in harbour, of hoisting the Ensign at 0800 (15 February to 31 October) otherwise at 0900 and lowering the Ensign at local sunset (or 2100 local time of earlier).
 
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I know it was a very old thread but I was reading it from a link from a google search and found it all very amusing...my apologies...couldn't resist...
:)
 
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