Blue Angel (Canados 70s) Rebuild thread

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The Victron Multiplus and Quatro are nearly the same,
The Multiplus has 1 AC input, and 2 AC outputs,
The Quatro has 2 AC input and 2 AC output;
One input for shore power and One extra input for the genny,
One Output is the invertor output or supply from shore or genny or the sum of both
The Other output is only active when there is AC Voltage on one of the inputs, for connecting MapisM airco fe. (appliances that you never want to switch on when no AC available.)

OK understood thanks

Both units have a programmable relay, fe for alarm, or switching on a genny

I think at least when I bought my Multiplus, the relay unit was an optional extra. The whole thing wasn't very well explained to me when I bought it. To be honest, I don't think the installer I used in Croatia, even though he was supposed to be experienced with Victron, knew exactly how the Multiplus worked and certainly if he had told me that there was an option to buy a relay unit to start the genny in the event of shorepower failure, I would have taken it. In fact, it took me quite a long time to understand how the thing worked and to find my way through the menus

1) The units can be programmed that they switch off when battery voltage goes below fe ..12,3V , probably this Voltage was set too low in your unit (programming is done with dip switches inside or connecting a laptop)

Again, the installer didn't tell me about this and I don't remember seeing anything referring to this in the manual but yes it would have been very useful to check the voltage setting. On the other hand, I did have both a Battery Monitor and Blue Power controller fitted but again I don't remember seeing anything in the menus allowing the invertor to be switched off below a set battery %

INVERTOR – OFF – CHARGE ONLY, the latter position is typically for when you’re away from the boat for a long time, that loads on the invertor output are switched off when no AC power available, the loads can’t empty your battery’s through the invertor.

Again I didn't appreciate that. I thought the invertor was just off in this position

 

[Robg71]

Great to see the Progress Bart
Did H&B warrant the repairs to swim platform.

 

[BartW]

I think at least when I bought my Multiplus, the relay unit was an optional extra. The whole thing wasn't very well explained to me when I bought it.

This relay has alway's been in the Multiplus, and in the battery monitor, never was a option,
but the installer has to find out how to interface with the genny, this is not alway's plug and play,
I my case I had to self make a interfacebox with some timers and extra relay's.

and this feature is not something that is commonly used, so one has to sprecifically asc for that from the installer (in his defence ;-) )

the installer didn't tell me about this and I don't remember seeing anything referring to this in the manual but yes it would have been very useful to check the voltage setting. On the other hand, I did have both a Battery Monitor and Blue Power controller fitted but again I don't remember seeing anything in the menus allowing the invertor to be switched off below a set battery %

the manuals are available online in any language,
I could send you the passage where they explain about the voltage setting in the unit, you need program this via a laptop (or maybe dip switches)
NOT via the remote panel.
but this doesn't make sense now anymore I guess

I just checked my invoice from 2012 and I paid GBP £2200 for a Multiplus 5kW plus £199 for the VE Blue Power controller plus £199 for the Battery Monitor. Have the prices come down recently or was I ripped off?

You are correct about the necessity for the boat owner to understand the system. I wasn't present when my unit was installed so there was no opportunity for the installer to show me through the system. Neither is the manual very good. I only learnt through trial and error and even then I obviously didn't fully understand how the system worked

Oh sorry, my mistake, In a hurry I typed the wrong prices, (our purchase price as a dealer) now corrected in my post,
the list price for your unit is 2907 euro, and 139e for the battery monitor, so you're not too far off,
you can sleep well again ;-)

 

[alt]

Thanks for keeping us updated, it's a very interesting tale all the upgrades.

When I win the Lotto maybe you'll sell BlueAngel to me - it'll be the most appropriately specced boat around!!

 

[BartW]

Great to see the Progress Bart
Did H&B warrant the repairs to swim platform.

I'm very satisfied with the deal I got from HB,
they gave me all the parts and new screws for free, and some new anodes on top,
and they offered to send a man for help,
As I had take care of his travel and accomodation cost, I didn't take that offer, I was working on the boat with a few handy friends anyway.

they gave me sort of a manual / guyde line how to (dis) assemble the unit.

they could have been discussing the "warranty" of this, as in the manual was many times stated that you're NOT allowed to keep the platform for long periods in the non locked upper position.
or that you have to raise the platform "immediately" after launching a tender...

This damage is actually caused by our usage, the platform was in the water, or just above water level, for longer periods, and during a quite hefty swell.
In the furture we will be more carefull, and the new housing is made stronger, so no worry's.

 

[BartW]

Of course you also have some great detail to offer a potential purchaser if and when you decide to sell her.

AndieMac and Alt,
I'm not at all thinking of selling her, but every now and then I think about what will happen with her in the future, is she sell-able, etc..
this threat is indeed a objective testimony, of everything we have upgraded or added.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks Bart. As you say this is all a bit academic as I have sold my previous boat with the Multiplus fitted. Also I am finding with the new boat in Italy that all marinas seem to have a 63A supply so running the aircon won't be an issue this season hopefully. However, as you know, my idea is to move back to the Adriatic next season so I may consider fitting a Multiplus or Quattro over the winter. I didn't realise you were a Victron dealer (nice margins btw). Are you interested in supplying and fitting a unit to my boat? I'm not asking for any favours here, I just want to use somebody who knows what they are doing because the guy in Croatia, whilst he was very helpful, seemed to lack a bit of knowledge

 

[jfm]

Hey BartW, many thanks for all that information. Really interesting stuff and what a wonderful ship you are creating with all these re-fits

I was really interested to read about the HB Technics platform. Mine are made differently with heavier welds, and I'm wondering why they made yours so "light". I will upload some pics and discuss in more detail, in another post, maybe later today.

I love the teak wood floor. I bet it looks fantastic now that it is varnished. Perfect answer for a boat as "busy" as BA. Galley refit looks great. I will be interested to hear about Velox Plus; I'm using TK for this season on my propellers.

I love the anchor Cam too - yours will give a different viewpoint from mine because it looks down on the anchor from above, whereas mine looks at the anchor from the side - please post some images from the camera later in the season. After 1 year of my AnCam, I am sure it was an upgrade really worth doing. It is just very useful, especially when we are shorthanded with people who know the boat and busy with guests who don't, so we cannot "spare" an experienced person to be on the foredeck. Also I can check the tension of the anchor chain from any of the nav screens and my iPad when we are at anchor

The electrics sound interesting. When the Victron box combines the genny and shorepower, I do not think it synchs the sine waves, so what does it do? Does it rectify both AC inputs to DC, then invert them back to a single AC output, or what? Or does it smoothly split the boat's 230v into 2 circuits, one powered by shorepower and one by genset (which is how my boat does it, when I combine shorepower and a genset)?

Very nice upholstery on flybridge too

Congratulations, and I'll come back on the swim platform welding

 

[BartW]

Here as promised, a blockdiagram of my installation, how I want to make it,
For now, I didn’t use the AC2 inputs yet, I just replaced the older Multiplus by Quatro’s .
The multiplus didn’t have this second AC in.
I didn’t change anything on the existing wiring yet,
So there still is a old selector switch to choose between 230V from shore or from a genny connected to the AC1 input at this moment.

This is a diagram from the Victron brochure, and probably most appropriate for MapisM potential installation

Both the Multiplus and the quatro have a second DC connection for start battery’s, but I didn’t find a diagram where Victron use that one. (lots of info and examples on their website)

Some specs:
the Quatro 5K, can deliver 120A charge current to the 24V domestic battery’s and 4amps to the 24V starter battery.
ACin 1 or ACin 2 can pass 230V 100A through the 5Kw Unit to the AC1 out.
The invertor can deliver 5Kw (approx. 20 Amps), on the AC1 output, or can deliver this in addition to the 100Amps coming from one of the AC inputs

 

[BartW]

Hey BartW, many thanks for all that information. Really interesting stuff and what a wonderful ship you are creating with all these re-fits

I was really interested to read about the HB Technics platform. Mine are made differently with heavier welds, and I'm wondering why they made yours so "light". I will upload some pics and discuss in more detail, in another post, maybe later today.

I love the teak wood floor. I bet it looks fantastic now that it is varnished. Perfect answer for a boat as "busy" as BA. Galley refit looks great. I will be interested to hear about Velox Plus; I'm using TK for this season on my propellers.

I love the anchor Cam too - yours will give a different viewpoint from mine because it looks down on the anchor from above, whereas mine looks at the anchor from the side - please post some images from the camera later in the season. After 1 year of my AnCam, I am sure it was an upgrade really worth doing. It is just very useful, especially when we are shorthanded with people who know the boat and busy with guests who don't, so we cannot "spare" an experienced person to be on the foredeck. Also I can check the tension of the anchor chain from any of the nav screens and my iPad when we are at anchor

The electrics sound interesting. When the Victron box combines the genny and shorepower, I do not think it synchs the sine waves, so what does it do? Does it rectify both AC inputs to DC, then invert them back to a single AC output, or what? Or does it smoothly split the boat's 230v into 2 circuits, one powered by shorepower and one by genset (which is how my boat does it, when I combine shorepower and a genset)?

Very nice upholstery on flybridge too

Congratulations, and I'll come back on the swim platform welding

Re HB Hilo platform
Perhaps you don't know, but the SQ78 HBplatform is rated 1200kg, total weight including tender, mine is the 1000kg model. Perhaps thats why mine looks more "light"
(I choose that at the time, as the final compromise, as we had doubts about boat behaviour and too much extra weight on the stern, remember ?)
by the way, the MCY76 HB platform is standard 600kg, and you can get optional the 800kg version ;-)

Re Ancam,
Yes I'm curious if I can mirror that immage in my mind, while manouvring during anchoring, but the position looked well suited for this..
I perfectly understand what you mean by the advantage of a Ancam, Even if you have a experienced buddy like E, even then I would like to see how the ancor chain "tends" to move while recovering the anchor during strong wind,.... and anticipate on the next manouver...

Re Victrons,
Sorry I didn't explain accurate / correctly.
These Victron units can pass the 230V supply from the Genny (max 100A) OR from shore power (max 100A) not sum both together, (I believe its a relay inside)
The unit CAN add invertor power from battery's on top of the current coming in from shore OR Genny.(120A max)
or just Invertor power only. (20A max)

 

[BartW]

Are you interested in supplying and fitting a unit to my boat? I'm not asking for any favours here, I just want to use somebody who knows what they are doing because the guy in Croatia, whilst he was very helpful, seemed to lack a bit of knowledge

I'm not interested installing a unit in your boat myself, but might arrange something with one of my Guy's, if there is a opportunity next winter.
the guy has to come anyway, to do some wiring in my boat, maybe we can combine, ... we shall see.
perhaps I gave the wrong impression that I DO this work all by myself, ;-)
but I alway's tell people, I "have that done" all by myself

 

[jfm]

Re HB Hilo platform
Perhaps you don't know, but the SQ78 HBplatform is rated 1200kg, total weight including tender, mine is the 1000kg model. Perhaps thats why mine looks more "light"
(I choose that at the time, as the final compromise, as we had doubts about boat behaviour and too much extra weight on the stern, remember ?)
by the way, the MCY76 HB platform is standard 600kg, and you can get optional the 800kg version ;-)

Re Ancam,
Yes I'm curious if I can mirror that immage in my mind, while manouvring during anchoring, but the position looked well suited for this..
I perfectly understand what you mean by the advantage of a Ancam, Even if you have a experienced buddy like E, even then I would like to see how the ancor chain "tends" to move while recovering the anchor during strong wind,.... and anticipate on the next manouver...

Re Victrons,
Sorry I didn't explain accurate / correctly.
These Victron units can pass the 230V supply from the Genny (max 100A) OR from shore power (max 100A) not sum both together, (I believe its a relay inside)
The unit CAN add invertor power from battery's on top of the current coming in from shore OR Genny.(120A max)
or just Invertor power only. (20A max)

Ah OK, that explains everything. I thought we had the same items from HB catalogue, and I kept looking at pics of my HB mechanism and thinking it looks heavier than yours. All my plate is about 2mm thicker and the place at the top where yours broke is made much heavier on mine, with big welds showing. No worries then and no need for me to post pictures. In addition, Fairline mould a 100m deep GRP box girder section into the GRP transom, ie the transom is not flat where the HB units attach, and this stiffens the transom. It would not be possible to do this on a retrofit of course and your tie wires to the next hull frame look like a good solution

You'll love the AnCam MapisM will just have to overcome his principled objection to the whole concept and fast forward to 2014 anchoring

Ah ok, all understood about electrics. Besides, I see your boat has 230v Bus a and Bus B, which is exactly how mine is done. This overcomes any need to synch 2 separate 50Hz supplies. Nice job!

 

[BartW]

Its winter, so there we go again,

For this year, we had planned to make a hardtop sunroof on the FB,
with opening and electric gliding system,
But due to the engine problems we have postponed that project for another year,
This will also allow me to get some more ideas from Jfm ‘s Match upgrade as he’s planned a similar thing I believe.

We will nevertheless do some works on the boat,
First is repairing some damage around the main fairleads in the transom.

Right before last summer season, we had this severe damage on port side, caused by One big wave coming in to the Tiber river in Rome;
when moored alongside, one of the spring lines, pushing the fairlead 15cm forward, damaging the plywood shell severely, on inside and outside.
I’ve reinforced this temporarily myself, to keep the metal fairlead in position, and put white gaffa tape over it for esthetics

Here are the pics,

Port side damage covered with white gaffa tape

From the outside, also covered with gaffa tape

Last summer, The SB side got some heavy stress from the mooring ropes, during a big thunderstorm, while being stern moored in Cavtat
you notice the cracks in the paint,
the plywood underneath is severely gone bad from moisture during years.

Last month I spoke with the former Canados yard team boss,
He explained me that this curvature was preassembled in the factory, and made from several thin layers of plywood.
The outside panel is 12mm and the inside is 10mm marine ply, mounted on solid wooden frames
the shape, size and curvature needs to remain exactly the same, for perfectly fitting the orriginal fairlead

Today I met two separate potential candidates for the repair,
Both proposed to do something else then repairing like originally build,
The first (3 folks from a local yard) proposed to replace just a few rotten patches, and place new sheets of GRP over the total surface,

The second (one local man , wood / GRP repair business) proposed to make a mould over the existing shape, and then produce a new GRP panel from that mould and replace the complete panels, both on the inside and the outside.

Here are some pics / cross sections from a few years ago, while making the transom door, and the transom gate,
to understand what’s behind the plywood shell.

I do agree that this construction is not good on long term considering moisture inside, as previously discussed in another thread.
this is a weak spot of this Canados.

What does the forum think is the best way to repair this ?

 

[Divemaster1]

Its winter, so there we go again,

First is repairing some damage around the main fairleads in the transom.

............What does the forum think is the best way to repair this ?

Just out of curiosity Bart ... and not sure how this would fit in with the rest of the construction.... but as this appears to be a high stress area, what about some metal work ?? Rolled sheet SS to curvature (Painted), welded stringers across to keep spacing and additional through deck bolts (and back plate) to prevent new the curved fairlead unit's load putting additional (or excessive) load on the original bulwark it will be connected to ?

 

[MarkNL]

Stack of sheets ?



Hello

Looking at the cross section and the stress cracks on the hull, it looks as though the lacks of "bridging" between inner and outer hull could be the root cause.

The stainless side walls of the fairlead will always survive, now matter how high the tension on ropes is... and the plywood hull sides will loose the battle for lack of backing. Could it be a solution to "build a small wall" of horizontaly stacked plywood sheets - and make massive connection between inner and louter skin ?

A final sheet of plywood - both on inside and outside could be added in minimal thickness (as low as 3 mm ?) to follow the complex curves. Or sanded, filled, faired etc. to make any curve possible...

Max thickness available in marine grade WBP is 25mm, a single sheet of 244 x 122 cm will make loads of L shaped forms. Rough sketch enclosed.

 

[jfm]

I definitely would not use #1. To get the strength ui need the laminate will be 10mm+ and that will look awful on the outside

I quite like #2. I would want more detail on how they will join the GRP to the plywood. Also, when they make the new external moulded GRP panel, I would want them to mould it heavy (like 15mm) and mould a 15mm flange at the base as wide as the flange along the top of the hull mould (125mm?). Then attach the new component to the hull flange with M10 bolts, penny washers and 3M 5200. Obviously, the new inner panel would then have to be attached last. The inner panel also needs to be a thick lay up.

As said above, the inner and outer panels need to be connected, so the yard should mould ribs on the inner face of the outer panel, then glue the inner panel to the outer with Crestomer on the ribs

Very roughly indeed, the outer panel would look something like this:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Today I met two separate potential candidates for the repair,
Both proposed to do something else then repairing like originally build,
The first (3 folks from a local yard) proposed to replace just a few rotten patches, and place new sheets of GRP over the total surface,

The second (one local man , wood / GRP repair business) proposed to make a mould over the existing shape, and then produce a new GRP panel from that mould and replace the complete panels, both on the inside and the outside.

I tend to agree with Divemaster1 and MarkNL. All the load from the fairlead is resisted only by the 12mm outer panel and the 10mm inner panel of the bulwark construction and as you well know, with stern to Med moorings, there are huge loads on the fairleads due to wind and swell so no surprise that particular construction has failed. IMHO you need to find a way of transferring some of that load to the deck and I like what MarkNL has proposed ie building up a laminated plywood block around the fairlead (which would obviously have to be curved to suit the curve of the bulwark) and then bolting it or screwing it to the deck underneath. If you did that, I don't see the point of using grp at all to repair the bulwark which I don't like anyway because wherever it joined to the original plywood bulwark, there would be the possibility of cracking at the join. Also I guess the look and texture of a painted grp panel might look very different from the rest of the original painted plywood in the bulwark. So if you found a way of transferring the load from the fairlead to the deck, either with a block or some other means, then there would be less load on the existing plywood bulwark structure and I would be inclined just to do a repair job on the existing plywood panels, either by patching them or if they were too damaged, replacing them
All IMHO and ready to be flamed by more learned members!

 

[jfm]

Howsabout carefully remove the inner plywood, then weld a leg and a base mount for the fairlead as pictured below, using very strong eg 8mm st/steel plate and maybe 100x50 box section for the leg. Then 5200 that and M10 bolt through the hull top flange, then replace the ply panel and generally fill/repair the plywood, maybe cover with GRP sheath and make good (as Vas has done, using epoxy, etc)

This feels to me like a low cost/low labour solution. The st/steel doesn't need to be polished even. Yet it would be very strong. Make the base plate as big as possible to spread the load - bigger maybe than my sketch suggests

 

[MapisM]

Bart, coming to think of it, I see no reason why the gunwale should support the whole fairlead structure and its load.
I mean, your main stern cleats are placed directly on the deck, so why shouldn't be the same for the fairleads?
You could consider opening a bit larger hole in the gunwale, throw away the existing fairleads and place completely different fairleads on the deck edges, fixed only to their bottom.
I'm sure to have seen this solution on several boats/yards, but the only pic I found that gives at least an idea of what I mean is the one below.
Btw, in this Azi I think that the fairleads are still raised above the deck, because also the cleats inside are - but you see what I mean.
I suppose one potential problem on BA might be accessing the deck corners from below, in order to fit thru bolts, possibly with counterplates underneath.
But if that would be feasible, you could forget any need to strengthen/modify the gunwale.
Just a thought....

 

[MapisM]

Howsabout carefully remove the inner plywood, then weld a leg and a base mount for the fairlead...

I only saw your idea after posting mine. We are thinking along the same lines, I reckon.
Your proposal has the advantage of using the same fairlead and keeping the OEM look, while mine requires more adaptations.
With both, it has to be seen how accessible is the deck from below.
Anyway, imho either ways are better than trying to strengthen the wooden gunwale, which by its nature is not built to withstand concentrated snatch loads.