birchwood 370

[chris]

Hi
I'm new to motor boating and have the chance of getting a birchwood 370. My boating for the next few years will be on the Thames, although I then hope to use it on the South coast in a few years time.

Is this a sensible boat for the River Thames? Is it a good boat or should I be looking for something different? Anyone any thoughts?

Thanks

 

[Guest]

I assume you mean the Birchwood Commando 370, which is a sports cruiser. Firstly, Birchwoods are pretty well screwed together - I have owned one for 10 years. The Birchwood people are also pleasant and helpful.

The 370 is not an ideal river cruiser as it is really intended for offshore work. Almost certainly she will have twin turbo charged diesels and outdrives. This gives rise to a couple of problems

1) Turbo engines do not like long spells of running at slow speeds - the cylinders will glaze and a there will be problems with excessive smoke, etc. These engines really need to be run at speeds which bring the turbos in - if its Volvo KAD42's this means over 2500 revs.

2) This boat will do the speed limit on parts of the Thames as I understand it (not being a Thames boater) at something just slightly over tickover

3) Outdrives are less suitable than shafts for river work. Shaft drive boats are more precise in their maneuvering which is important in and out of locks etc.

4) This is controversial on this forum but I do not like outdrives anyway. The basic concept is that you take an expensive marine gearbox and dangle it in the water (usually salt water) over the back of the boat protected only by perishable rubber seals. I have had outdrive boats and spent at least £1000 per annum ( at mid eighties prices) on repairs to the outdrives. Shafts are simpler and therefore much more reliable.

Having said all that, the 370 is a nice boat and apart from my comments about outdrives, very well suited to offshore work e.g. runs over to France, Channel Isles, etc.

Just one final word of caution - get some training, it ain't as easy as it looks and you do not want to spoil what is a fantastic hobby through avoidable cockups.

Good luck

Nick

 

[Guest]

Re: agreed re outdrives

I *thought* that there was a TS370? massive flybrdige job?

Anyway agreed re outdrives.

 

[Guest]

Re: agreed re outdrives

There's a TS37 which was an aft cabin flybridge boat similar to a Fairline Turbo. There was a TS37 Sports which was an aft cockpit version of same. They had trouble this one as the loss of weight in the stern caused her to lean over about 30 degrees and run on one chine at speed, which when you are sitting on the flying bridge is a little disconcerting. Problem was cured by ballasting I believe.
Then there was the TS390 which was a bigger aft cabin flybridge boat which has evolved into the present Challenger something or other.

Has anyone else noticed that as boats age they get longer. The fairline turbo, for example started life as a 36 but by the end of production was a 38 but with the same hull. I am pretty sure that the TS390 is now a 41 footer! I reckon the manufacturers are in cahoots with the marinas.

Nick

 

[jfm]

Re: outraged

That bodge you refer to where it ran on chines and they "cured" it by ballasting, that's outrageous. They need stringing up by the 3-piece suite (as a cabbie said to me this morning) for that one. Anyway, why do Birchwood take full colour glossy ads in Boat International?

JFM

 

[Guest]

Re: outraged

Firstly, the TS37 sport became quite a nice boat eventually but essentially the hull was designed for an aft cabin and did not like it when it was not there. Anyway, that was the old Birchwood lot which went into receivership. I am not aware of any similar problems with the current range although I am not too keen on the lines of the boats.

As to advertising in Boat International, I expect Birchwood is hoping to sell some boats to fit in transom garages - which reminds me of a story.

I am from a humble background and by the mid eighties I had a successful accounting practice and a Fairline Mirage and generally thought I had arrived. We were holidaying in Marbella and I had it all put in perspective. We were in Puerto Banus and the boss was off looking round the boutiques whilst my sons (then quite young) and I sat in a dockside cafe having respectively ice creams and Cuba libres. As is the fashion, all the large boats (ships really) were moored stern to and I watched as a large black Mercedes came thundering up the quayside. About level with us, he turns left towards the edge, stopped, tinted black window purrs down, hand comes out with a bleeper, stern garage opens and lowers ramp and he drives on and parks beside the Ferrari. Particular vessel had bigger boats on the davits than my Mirage.

Since then I have aspired to that but never made it!

Nick

 

[Guest]

Re: outraged (2)

Just another follow up to chine riding. The same thing I am told happened to the old Princess 32 (looks like Fairline Mirage, twin outdrives). Princess, the story goes, experimented with additional power and on opening throttles, boat leant to port and did lots of knots virtually on her side. Crew apparently terrified of backing power off because they were not sure how she would come off the plane - maybe upside down. Even the best of companies have their little glitches.

Nick

 

[jfm]

Re: selling up

Wow I never heard that about the P32. I used to admire that boat a lot, as a kid buying a few boatie mags in early 70's. Along with the mooraker 32 and a few others it was all the rage, full page colour ads in MBY I recall. I'm feeling old now.

Anyway, I thought the way forward now was to sell practice to the Americans (Tenon Group). I've heard on good authority (not first hand exp) that some firms in the NorthWest have sold out for £3mill/partner and kept their job (though as a lower-salaried employee, not equity), and all this is possible imminently with 10% CGT

JFM

 

[markc]

Re: suspect build quality

I would warn anyone who was considering one of these to very, very carefully check the build quality. I have seen a similar boat which is less than a year old with serious cracks round the window mullions and other places - I don't think that this particular boat even went to sea. Another I have see, also about the same age had such a thin layer of gel coat on the superstructure that you could see the matting through it in places. I'm no expert on these matters, but I would be very dissapointed if I had shelled out a wad and got these kind of defects.

Mark

 

[Guest]

Re: jfm housing prob solved! (nm)

.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: agreed re outdrives

Some of us do put on a few more inches with age, you know, although perhaps not in the most attractive places!
Some years ago, all the UK manufacturers got together and agreed to quote boat length as length overall (loa) rather than hull length or whatever with loa including the pulpit and bathing platform. Voila and overnight the Turbo 36 became the Turbo 38, the Sealine 390 became the 410, Fairline 43 became 45 and so on. Brand new models without the R & D
Now the trick, of course, is to stick ever vaster bathing platforms on the back end and at fairly minimal cost to create another new model, so what started as the Sealine 390 and became the 410 is now the F43 and all on the same hull. Easy, is'nt it?
For once, the honourable exception seems to be the yanks who, by and large, quote boat length as hull length

 

[Guest]

Re: suspect build quality

I am disappointed to hear that as a long term Birchwood owner. Mine has been through a lot of big seas and is as structurally sound as she was new (in 1988).

I think it is a lesson for anyone buying a new boat. Always ask for a list of existing owners to use as references.

Nick

 

[jfm]

Re: whether to include bathing platform in LOA

I don't think they include the pulpit in LOA but they do include the bath platform.

Axshully the bath platform is tricky. If it is "scooped out" so that the planing surface of the hull runs under the bath platform, then I agree it should be included in LOA. But if it's a stick-on extension (as most yanks are) then should not include it. If it's half and half, like the Fairline phantom 42, it's a bit tricky.

But most manufactureres will give you a line drawing, so you can see exactly what you're getting, so it's not really a problem, is it?

JFM

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: whether to include bathing platform in LOA

I think I'm right on the pulpit but I stand to be corrected. Either way, the marinas certainly measure it when they want to fleece you
The bathing platform issue is a contentious one. I've noticed most modern Fairlines and Princesses have extended hulls under the bathing platform for added waterline length but others eg Sealine do not so you have to be a bit careful comparing loa's. Your Fairline 42 may have a significantly longer waterline length than a Sealine F44 for example
Waterline length is the most important measure as far as I'm concerned because that has a real effect on performance at sea and its not easy to find that out. None of the manufacturers seem give the figure in their literature and, yes, you can scale off a line drawing in the brochure but you cant be sure the drawing is correct or for that matter whether the waterline level is correctly shown

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: outraged

Yes who does buy new Birchwoods these days? They're not going to sell on looks, are they?
From what I gather the older ones were well screwed together but later ones suffered when the company got into trouble in the mid 90's. Dunno whether quality has improved since the takeover
Anyone out there with experience? Nick?
Re bodges, I think every manufacturer's got a few dud skeletons rattling around, the Sunseeker Portofino 400 which would'nt plane without massive fixed tabs on the back, the Sealine 390 which would'nt steer 'coz the rudders were too small, the Broom 35 which leans to port (they all do that, sir). Boat manufacturing is such a cottage industry that few can afford to build test prototypes or even scale models for tank testing so it's us, the humble customer, on whom the product is tested

 

[Guest]

Re: suspect build quality

Mark

I am shocked that you can give such a damning report on a boat and then state that you are no expert. This then becomes your personal opinion.

I am sure that you are aware that the British boatbuilding industry is frail enough, and your opinions will only serve to drive them further down.
The amount of money that Chris is looking to spend will certainly justify a 'Professional survey', and I suggest that any defects in a particular vessel would be picked up by the surveyor.

Chris's original question was as to the suitability of the 370 as a Thames boat which you seem to have completely ignored, however other contributors have not and I would concur with most of them.

 

[markc]

Re: suspect build quality

I'm glad that you saw that I proclaimed that I was no expert and that you could also see that what I was saying was from a personal viewpoint.

I do not understand your aggressive stance on this subject - surely you do not expect that we consumers are responsible for the Federation of Boat builders - if we see some examples of shoddy goods we should not mention it!!?? I bet you have never sent back a duff meal in a restaurant!!

Also, now that I have pointed out these examples which I have seen, perhaps when Chris does find one he likes and does have a survey then he can ask for these points to be checked.

Or do you work for Birchwood?

 

[jfm]

Re: steady on Neilc!!

I'm with Mark on this one. He doesn't need to be an expert in boat building to see a thin gelcoat. The fact he is not an expert does not mean what he says is merely his opinion, it could still be fact. I'm not a train driving expert but I can tell you for sure that my commute into London today was crappy, badly managed, incompetent, and I would recommend you not to purchase the same - if there were a choice.

I dont agree the UK industry is frail. See forward order book for the mainstream builders, most build slots sold for 2001 and some beyond. (San Lorenzo 88s on the other hand are avail ex-stock!! And you could have had a Leopard23 for July 2002 delivery, till someone nabbed that slot)

Re Mark drifting off the original question, we all do that a tinsy winsey bit, or more

Do you work for Birchwood then?

JFM

 

[Scubadoo]

Re: steady on Neilc!!

I remember at the London Boatshow earlier this year comments made to me on the Birchwood stand. I was asking all sorts of questions and the converstion lead onto the suitability on the South coast, the salesman insisted that all Birchwood sold are for the Med only and not really suitable in this country. He simple could not understand why you would go boating in the UK. Well I swiftly moved on and would never consider them in the future.

RM.

 

[Guest]

Re: suspect build quality

Dear Mark.
I would cordially invite you to the Birchwood factory to discuss our build quality with you face to face. Perhaps you will also be kind enough to bring with you details of boats that you have seen, as having checked all boats under a year old with their owners I can find no problems of that nature.
Ian Willgress.
Director.
Birchwood Marine International Ltd.